1909 Buick at auction...well, sort of

[trimacar]

The importance of knowing what one is bidding on, or at least knowing someone who knows, cannot be stressed enough.

 

This looks like a fun Buick, Model 16’s from 1909 and 1910 are highly desirable.

 

This car, unfortunately, is a mishmash of years and components, mostly desirable but as a car the whole is less than the parts.

 

Model 16 appearing hood, cowl, seat, homemade from there back.  Wrong steering wheel for a Model 16.  Biggest is what appears to be a 1911 Model 38 engine under the hood, rare in itself, but if it has the multiple disc clutch of the 1911 it can be problematic.  
 

Vacuum tank is a much later addition, and windshield adapted to side light brackets is unique, though not original.

 

Could be an interesting car, but far removed from an original Model 16.

 

https://www.mecum.com/lots/HA0420-452125/1909-buick-model-16-roadster-tourabout/   

Edited November 25, 2020 by trimacar (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

"Museum quality" all the way on this one!   Good to see there is no reserve though.

Terry😉

[trimacar]

12 minutes ago, Terry Bond said:

"Museum quality" all the way on this one!   Good to see there is no reserve though.

Terry😉

Yes, be real interesting to see how it sells.  A few of us Model 16 owners are watching with interest!

[dibarlaw]

Dave:

 Hugh sent me the link earlier today. My thoughts exactly as noted by you previously. A mishmash is a good descriptor. I have looked at several early Buicks in the same "Museum quality" arrangement.

 Some day I would like to come down to visit you and see your car.

 What I was imagining before I opened the link

[trimacar]

That’s almost my car, pictured is a surrey with no rear doors.  Mine is a toy tonneau, one rear door that opens on rear driver side, fake rear door on passenger side.  Two wing nuts and tonneau comes off to make a roadster.  A long term restoration, mine is getting close...

 

The other thing that illustration doesn’t show is how large and tall the Model 16 is, the steering wheel hub is at eye level, whole car high off ground,  great proportions...

Edited November 25, 2020 by trimacar (see edit history)

[motoringicons]

Interesting car. 1909-10 Buick Model 16s have always been a favorite of mine. When I was a kid in LA I attended a SoCal HCCA Regional Tour and Prof. Francois Therou was there with his Model 16. He gave me a ride in that car and it made a lasting impression. He was the author of the well known book "Buick: The Golden Era 1903-1915" which is collectible in itself. I have a signed copy from him.

 

I thought the engine on the Mecum auction car looked a bit different. I noticed the water pump is in a different location and has a different configuration than a Model 16 or 17. Are there any other differences? I believe  the 1911 Model 38 and the 1909-1910 Model 16 and 17s all had the 318 CID, 4.5 x 5" engines. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by motoringicons (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

 I wish I had the book.

 And the car on the cover.

  Brass at Berks 2013

[trimacar]

Yes, the Model 38 engine is basically the same as the Model 16/17.  One of the weaknesses was that the water pump on the 16/17 was driven off the camshaft, so pump shaft went through the crankcase.  If the packing leaked water, it went directly into the oil.  So, the externally driven pump is a good idea.

 

Therou’s car is still around, though it’s been repainted, and it lives in Florida now. I foolishly passed on it when it was for sale a number of years ago, but it now lives with a friend of mine.

 

The book is overrated.  It’s mostly just reprinted advertising or operational material of the period.  I have enough original literature and period pictures that I could put a good book together just on the 16/17 models, maybe not as thick but more interesting.

[edinmass]

This car is the exact reason no one should buy and pre WWII car without an expert opinion. Where I come from, we call this car a “floor sweepings build”. Sweep up all the old parts found on the floor, and under the cabinets, and build something. Unfortunately, this is much more common than most people realize. The percentages of unmolested  pre WWI cars are extremely low..........most survivors were cut into trucks, tow trucks, ect. And the larger the engine and chassis the higher chance it’s been butchered and put back. Buick’s while not often cut into trucks, have always been faster and better built than most in the brass era.......thus they also suffer from more punishment when new, and poor restoration work in the early part of the hobby. I like the early Buick’s because the owners are very enthusiastic and helpful to all the people in the hobby. Proof of their great road abilities is the seldom last for sale very long, and good examples always bring good money. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Ed I completely agree with you about your assessment of Buicks. Austin Clark owned the Simplex Automobile company and had two restored Simplex cars but the one brass era car he used the most from his collection (and kept at his house ) for just about all the local long island old car club tours was his model 10 Buick touring car. It went everyplace.

[George Cole]

46 minutes ago, edinmass said:

This car is the exact reason no one should buy and pre WWII car without an expert opinion. Where I come from, we call this car a “floor sweepings build”. Sweep up all the old parts found on the floor, and under the cabinets, and build something. Unfortunately, this is much more common than most people realize. The percentages of unmoderated pre WWI cars are extremely low..........most survivors were cut into trucks, tow trucks, ect. And the larger the engine and chassis the higher chance it’s been butchered and put back. Buick’s while not often cut into trucks, have always been faster and better built than most in the brass era.......thus they also suffer from more punishment when new, and poor restoration work in the early part of the hobby. I like the early Buick’s because the owners are very enthusiastic and helpful to all the people in the hobby. Proof of their great road abilities is the seldom last for sale very long, and good examples always bring good money. 

Okay Ed, I respectfully disagree.  I understand your point and desire for pure originality, but what's the alternative when a car is incomplete and original parts are unavailable?  Parting out or scrapping what's left of a semi-complete, rare/semi-rare car, turning it into a street rod...or making the best that you can with what's available?  Other than being completely honest about what it is when advertising it for sale, what's the issue?  I have 2 relatively rare vehicles which are each missing several critical parts that for all intent and purpose are unobtanium.  My 1919 roadster had been a tow truck at one point in it's life, which probably saved it from the WWII scrap drives.  I bought it with newly fabricated steel rear body panels and 2 very nice reproduction left fenders.  It's no secret that they're not original, but what else can be done when the parts are not available?  Although the right fenders are steel and appear original, they are in extremely poor condition, and most likely can only be used as templates.  It is missing both rear axle shafts, so I will most likely have to have replacements fabricated using one of my 1920 axles as a template.  Likewise, between the 1919 and 1920, I only have one badly rusted gas tank, with holes big enough to put my hands through.  I sent it off to use as a template to have 2 new stainless steel tanks fabricated.  I have a full page of missing/unusable parts for each car, which I am working through one part at a time. So no, neither car will ever be purely original and I will never claim that they are.  But with only 2 other 1919 Cole roadsters known to exist, I feel mine should be saved as best possible.  Likewise with my 1920.  Although it was advertised as a 7-passenger touring car, I have not been able to verify that, and evidence indicates that it may be a 5-passenger touring car.  The 1920 Cole 7-passenger touring car had jump seats which folded flush into the rear of the front seat back.  My front seat frame appears original, and does not have this provision, and has no evidence it ever had jump seats.  So it's likely mine was a 5-passenger car, even though it was not advertised as such.  There are 4 other surviving 1920 7-passenger touring cars, but only 1 other known 5-passenger touring car...and it is in Ecuador.  Unless I come up with any contradictory evidence, I'm leaning toward restoring it as the more rare 5-passenger car.  Apparently unlike the seller of the 1909 Buick as the topic of David's thread, I have no intention of misrepresenting the cars to anyone.  They are what they are.  My intentions are to save and restore both cars as best possible, given the limitations of unavailable parts and what I have to work with.

[edinmass]

George.....I have no problem with the Buick...........just that someone new to the hobby would think the car is an origional and then later find to it isn't. We were at a car show one day, and I was talking to a gentleman about his car, and commented what a great restoration it was........he asked me if I knew who did it, and I replied, yes. I know the man who bought what was left of it after the building burned to the ground with the car in it........and explained how he basically started with 80 percent of an engine on a very, very early Packard. He had no clue, as he purchased the car with a file that had origional owner photos, and shots much later......no one told him that the entire chassis and body along with the rest of the car was all new. He paid for a perfect car, and that's not what he had. I have seen this also in Duesenbergs. I have made missing parts form photos doing the best I could, and worked off of measurements on other projects........often times a basket case is the only way for a family man or working man to get a car..........and they do impressive builds...........but if it is a basket case or a "floor sweepings" car, to should be represented as such. Fact is there are many "great" brass cars that the story is now lost to time.........I have done three Pierce V-12 basket case cars......and will NEVER do another......I'm too old......I want to drive.........not spend 4000 hours building something back up..........I'm approaching basket case status with my body now...........

 

The Buick up for auction had NO details for the sale..........exactly what you expect to find at an auction. If it were a pure example, it would probably trade hands in the Buick club. That said, if it sells for a reasonable price, someone will have a fun car.

Edited November 26, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

Have been thinking that we are at the cusp of another "golden age" as things like 3D printing and plasma cutting becomes more common. Casting (sand or lost wax for a smooth surface) has always been around. Even ways of forming wood with a steam box is not hard just few do anymore.

 

When a GMI (now Kettering) student we had a fully equipped machine shop that only a few seemed to use but helped me think about parts back then. Machine tools helped me think about things just like electronic tools help me think about modern  cars. I don't think the techniques that let people build cars in a barn over 100 years ago have been lost so much as slipped into disuse.

 

The internet is a wonderful resource and lets people all over the world with common interests get together. Would say a cusp in modern cars came in 1995-1996 (25 years ago) as OBD-II came out and suddenly it was much harder to reprogram a car.

 

Point I am making is that today it is easier to make those "unobtainium" parts than it ever was and low volume does not hurt as much as it once did.

[Guest]

What is the purpose of the bags over the headlamps?

 

As to "floor sweepings" I can attest that was very common among all of us kids who were prolific model car builders in the 1960's. 😄

[keiser31]

4 minutes ago, GregLaR said:

What is the purpose of the bags over the headlamps?

 

As to "floor sweepings" I can attest that was very common among all of us kids who were prolific model car builders in the 1960's. 😄

The bags over some of the brass parts are for protection from the weather and/or stones. They are a pain to polish after they get tarnished.

Edited November 26, 2020 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

The headlight covers are very common in the world of brass..........By anal people who don't want to polish them or to protect them while going down the road. Why have a great brass car and cover it up? 

[trimacar]

2 minutes ago, edinmass said:

The headlight covers are very common in the world of brass..........By anal people who don't want to polish them or to protect them while going down the road. Why have a great brass car and cover it up? 

Usually one only sees the covers when the car is in storage, can’t imagine being at a show or tour and keeping them on.  
 

That’s a 1909 Model 16, judging by the fin and tube radiator which was not used in 1910.  Of course could be a 1910 with an earlier radiator, who knows.

 

Color is not the standard factory color for a Model 16, they came blue body/ivory chassis or two tone red body/chassis.  The smaller Model 10 was a white car, so arguably you could order a Model 16 and say “paint it white”, I guess.

[jeff_a]

I have some expert opinions on the car. It was Glenn D. Brown's Buick from the 20s or 30s until 1990. Here is a thread about it -- the late Dave Corbin even discussed it with me on the Buick Forum regarding the engine serial number. My guess is that the owner for the last thirty years has passed away.........and a lot of the story of this Buick has been lost in transition. As Ed says, there's nothing in the auction description. Usually there's a paragraph or two of provenance -- after a page about the company that built it. I would describe it as a 60s restoration, though 40s or 50s might be more accurate.
 

The Buick was sold at one of my Grandfather's estate auctions in 1990 to the owner of the world's largest antique motorcycle collection(that's what he told me while he was loading the Buick on his trailer), E. J. Cole. I've ridden in it many times with my Dad or Granddad at the wheel. It was really fast, raced by Glenn at 50 or 60 mph. That was on the 1/2-mile dirt track at the Kansas State Fairgrounds. The auction site has almost no text about the car, but one picture shows a poster of one of the antique car races he competed in in the 60s. Not a good parade car, though. Since there has never been a radiator fan, it overheats below 20 m.p.h. My Grandfather said it was intended for racing, so none was ever installed. "Glenn D." lived in Hutchinson, Kansas from 1895-1990. 

 

----Jeff

Edited December 6, 2020 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[trimacar]

This car sold for $16,500.  Even with issues, I consider that a bargain.

 

If anyone knows who bought it, please let me know so I can add to the Model 16/17 roster.

 

Thanks David.coco@comcast.net.  

[rusty12]

Yup, compared to the Model T that sold a few lots later, that Buick was a definitely a bargain! 

A great looking 318 CID speedster. The history provided by Jeff A. certainly adds some great background to it's story.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by rusty12 (see edit history)

[AL1630]

On 11/26/2020 at 9:00 AM, padgett said:

Have been thinking that we are at the cusp of another "golden age" as things like 3D printing and plasma cutting becomes more common. Casting (sand or lost wax for a smooth surface) has always been around. Even ways of forming wood with a steam box is not hard just few do anymore.

3D Printing Technology and affordable CNC machining will totally transform what had previously been 'unobtanium'. Even with my Rambler, I've been working on designing several parts like the badge for the hood ornament and sail panel emblems that are hard to find or expensive. I've been hearing about 3D printing metal in the future, which could allow for the creation of exact replicas of original parts. If one example of a rare part can be found, it could be replicated and then produced in larger quantities. It may not be original, but in my opinion it would be better to have an exact fitting replica part than none at all. The costs for these technologies keep dropping and the tech itself gets better, so I'm really excited to see what could happen.

[1937hd45]

What would a "Proper" 1909 Model 16 Buick Toy Tonneau trade for today in the right setting? Bob 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[rusty12]

I have been thinking about the engine in the Mecum car. I am not so sure it is incorrect. 

 

A friend had a 1911 Model 38 and I have photos of it. I have compared the two engines.

 

  On his 1911, the fan assembly is attached by an A-frame style bracket that attaches to the timing gear section of the crankcase. There are no bosses or mounting surfaces on the cylinder jug for the fan-the front of the1911  cylinder is smooth where it faces the radiator. Also, his fan is driven from a pulley that is part of the drive that turns the magneto and the water pump. On the Mecum Auction Buick, it clearly has the Model 16 style fan mounting pad cast into  the front of the cylinder and there is no fan belt pulley on the magneto drive, which assumes there would be one on the crankshaft. ( It is interesting that Jeff A. remembers this car with no fan and it still missing)  I wonder if the Mecum car does have a Model 16 engine, but with its water pump  removed from the crankcase and another pump  fitted in its current location? This would make sense given the known problems of the typical Model 16/17 crankcase mounted water pumps. The flywheel on the Model 38, since it is a multiple disc clutch, is totally different than the one on this Model 16 which I believe is correct for a Model 16.

 

The next iteration of this 318 CID engine was in the 1912 Model 43s. However, the cylinders are shaped completely different and the spark plugs have a recessed mounting hole and mount at a 45 degree angle. So, this is definitely not a Model 43 engine.

 

I have attached photos of the 1911 Model 38 (blue) and the Mecum Model 16 engines.

 

I believe the engine number of 9864 provided by Jeff indicates it to be a very late 1910 Model 16 since the 1910 Model 16/17 numbers ran from 2518 to 10879 according to my book. The 1911 Model 38s had a completely different engine number range. The Mecum auction car also has what appears to be the1910 style Model 16/17 radiator. 

 

I am starting to think the Mecum car does have a correct Model 16 engine that was updated or upgraded over the years. Based on the appearance and condition, these changes  look to have been done a long, long time ago.  For what it is worth, I think the Mecum Auction car is a 1910 Model 16.

 

As Trimacar pointed out, the body has certainly been modified ( but I think looks great-especially since it was obviously done a long time ago based on Jeff's old photos of the car). I think the Buick script gas tank is off a 1912-1913 Buick. The steering wheel is certainly incorrect as is the vacuum tank and the later ( Rayfield? ) carburetor and homemade intake manifold. I would probably remove the 1920s windshield and black truck sidelights which I think would improve its appearance dramatically.  But, heck, I think this is still a great looking car- with LOTS of potential. 

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by rusty12 (see edit history)

[rusty12]

Here is another photo. The is the engine from the ex-Jim Hearn Buick Model 16 (photo from the Bonham's catalog). It definitely bears a closer resemblance to the Mecum car than it does the 1911 Model 38. On this photo, you can see the location of the fan mount as well as what the original water pump would look like. 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by rusty12 (see edit history)

[trimacar]

9 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

What would a "Proper" 1909 Model 16 Buick Toy Tonneau trade for today in the right setting? Bob 

 

75 to 100K, depending on quality....and older restoration showing wear and use should be in the 55-60K range

[trimacar]

8 hours ago, rusty12 said:

I have been thinking about the engine in the Mecum car. I am not so sure it is incorrect. 

You know, I believe you're correct, I didn't really study the engine as closely as I should have.  You gave a great analysis, spot on.

 

In a Model 16 engine, the fan is driven from a pulley on a gear on the manifold side of the engine that's there only for that purpose.

 

The number of the engine is well in range of a late 1910.  There are two cars in the roster with numbers in the very low 10,000 range.

 

I think this car was an excellent buy for someone, very well bought.  Hard to sell a brass car at a hot rod/muscle car auction.  I know who SHOULD have bought this car, as he has some extra parts, but I don't know at this point who DID buy the car!

 

There are still a lot of things to fix, and there's another issue, in that original crankcases just don't hold up very well.  A few years back new crankcases were case, and a lot of Model 16/17's have these replacements.

 

Water pumps are a problem, if they leak water goes directly to crankcase, this external water pump is actually a good thing.  The only other issue on these models is the driveshaft, original bearings don't hold up well (it's a shaft in a tube).  It didn't help that the foot brake operated on a drum at the back of the transmission, putting all sorts of forces through the drivetrain.

 

  

 

[trimacar]

8 hours ago, rusty12 said:

Here is another photo. The is the engine from the ex-Jim Hearn Buick Model 16 (photo from the Bonham's catalog). It definitely bears a closer resemblance to the Mecum car than it does the 1911 Model 38. On this photo, you can see the location of the fan mount as well as what the original water pump would look like. 

 

 

That car sold in 2015, and was well bought at the time.  It lives in Ohio, and has been sorted out and is a great driver, according to the now-owner.  

[1912Staver]

At $16,500.00 this car has to represent a true beacon of hope for any of us lower income Brass Car hopefuls.  Lets hope more of these 2nd or 3rd rate examples change hands for such realistic prices. Perhaps the cake IS large enough for us all to have a slice.

And lets hope this isn't just dropped off at a restoration shop for a blank cheque restoration . It's fine as is for low budget touring.

Greg

Edited December 6, 2020 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

3 hours ago, trimacar said:

75 to 100K, depending on quality....and older restoration showing wear and use should be in the 55-60K range

Ok, If 90K was the goal could that $16,500 auction car donate enough "correct" running gear components to mate up with new fenders and a body to produce a Toy Tonneau? There are Touring and Show Winning Stanley Steamers and 1909 Fords that started with less. Bob 

Edited December 6, 2020 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

   Neat to see all the comments about my grandfather's Buick. He told me that he was driving around in the country and found it abandoned in a shelterbelt in front of somebody's farmhouse. That would have been in the interwar years. He asked about it and got permission to have it for some petty amount. He came back with oil and gas and a saw to cut a small tree that had grown between the front axle and something else, and got it running enough to drive it home. Sometimes I wonder if it had been raced by someone like Glenn Breed, then abandoned when it wasn't competitive any more(he raced in central Kansas for awhile and was on the Buick Factory Racing Team earlier). Just speculation on my part, but then, my Grandfather's not around to ask.

 

   I found some more photos of the car and will try to scan them Monday and post them here. 1 of the car before restoration(1920s-1940s?), and 1 with my Dad in it(about 1974). By the way, those cheap black sidelights were scabbed on by someone after our family sold it. In 1990 it had brass sidelights. I also found a photo of the car at the 1941 Russell Prairiesta. It's looked about the same all this time, not having been a touring car or toy tonneau. The windshield was a good thing, with all the driving "Glenn D." did. Once he drove it from Hutchinson out to Colorado and back...over 400 miles...on a lark, and may have even driven it to the Russell, KS event rather than trailering it.

 

   When the Buick sold, it was at an auction designed to convert items into cash, to be divided by heirs(my Grandfather's daughter, and 4 grandchildren. None of the property was willed to anyone, as far as I know. There were 10 or 20 antique vehicles, 2 farms, a house, and 4 commercial properties in town. The best 2 cars were the Buick(he always called it a 1909) and a full-classic 1926 Elcar cabriolet. The grandchildren had a special deal, where we could bid like anyone else at the sales, but get a 50% discount when we wrote the check. The Elcar went for $7,000 and the Buick for $5,000. So I could have gotten either one at half price if I had that kind of money at the time. The share of the estate I was paid would have covered it...but didn't arrive til after the auctions...so that 50% scam didn't do me much good. 

 

    Following are blurbs about dirt track racing in Kansas in the 1911-1913 period, and a random picture of a Model 16 from velocepicturecars. Maybe trimacar knows which one this is.

 .................

Edited December 10, 2020 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[rusty12]

Here are the options I see with this car:

 

You could restore it back to its original body configuration. By doing this, you'll need to build a whole new body-flawless, smooth, with all newly machined hardware. Then you need to make new fenders that are as flawless and smooth as the new body. Oh, the old radiator looks like junk compared to the new bodyy and fenders so a new radiator will be made that is as flawless and smooth as the new body and fenders. And you'll have to get all the other brass things probably made new or restored to the point there is nothing original left in them. Then you'll need to top it off with one of those paint jobs that everyone is doing to show quality brass cars now days that makes them look like Franklin Mint models instead of automobiles. And don't forget to get the matt finish, glove leather interior that is overly diamond tufted and looks like it came from a new Chinese made sofa. When you are done doing all this, you'll have a brass car with new coachwork and new everything else that will blend in nicely with all the other comparable brass cars with new coachwork and everything else that you see everywhere you go. Most people would have all this done at a professional shop which will  cost them a few hundred thousand bucks. They also won't get to see the car for a few years-or longer-while its sits in the shop in pieces. You can show the car in AACA and other concours and be inline with all the other die-cast model-looking brass cars with coachwork that is newer than most people's underwear and take home a 15.00 trophy. And since it is a Buick-and not a Simplex or Pierce or Stanley-people are going to walk right by it in favor of the bigger, newly constructed cars.

 

Yawn, yawn, yawn, boring, boring, boring, yawn, yawn yawn.

 

Or, you could mechanically service this car and get it running reliably. Do what it needs to make it tour-able and road-able. 

 

If you think about it, based on Jeff's information, this car has been in its current configuration longer than it existed in its original configuration. If this car was used in amateur, fairground races at some point, restoring the car will totally loose this neat part of its history. Also, the body configuration that this car has  is good looking and is certainly period appropriate-even though it is not factory Buick. Just removing that black windshield might change its appearance dramatically. This car with its current body has great speedster proportions.  I think this car is steeped in neat folklore and history as it sits. If were restored to current day standards, it would all be lost.

 

Why would anyone think of restoring this car? Showing up anywhere with this car in its current configuration is going to attract a crowd. I have a "beater" looking, medium size brass Buick and it really attracts a crowd-especially when you open the hood and they see all those rockers moving up and down. And it is tons of fun to drive.

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with this car. Will it reappear a few years from now at Hershey getting judged for its First Junior, Senior, etc and look nothing like it does now? Or will it be driven hard- like its supposed to-in its current speedster configuration on a dirty, dusty road with other brass cars in its rear view mirror?

 

I know how well my 201 CID Buick runs and I can't imagine what it would be like if it had this 318 CID engine-that is a HUGE difference in size.

 

I think this car might go down as the Best Brass Bargain of 2020. In the case of this car,  the phrase "drive it like you stole it" will need to be changed to "drive it BECAUSE you stole it". 

 

Good luck and congratulations to the new owner-whatever he or she decides to do, they are off to a good start.

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by rusty12 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

I think this car might go down as the Best Brass Bargain of 2020. In the case of this car,  the phrase "drive it like you stole it" will need to be changed to "drive it BECAUSE you stole it". 

 

I believe it's just the beginning of prices in this category on any car under 40 horse power. The good news is it will bring in a bunch of new blood. If you sitting on a lot of cars......you probably won't see it this way. I think someone bought a car that will be great fun........regardless of price, thats why we are all here.........to enjoy ourselves. 

[trimacar]

Well, this is a 35/40 HP car, and one of the best looking 1909/10 cars out there, high off the ground and a long hood.

 

That’s a parts car price for these models.

 

I agree, get running as is, clean up some of the obvious things, and drive it.  Only problem is you’d need to drive gently with the original crankcase....

 

Could you restore it to a toy tonneau with excellent paint, upholstery, and brass for $80k?  I don’t think so, and I have personal experience restoring one, with costs to back up that statement.

[jeff_a]

3 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

At $16,500.00 this car has to represent a true beacon of hope for any of us lower income Brass Car hopefuls.  Lets hope more of these 2nd or 3rd rate examples change hands for such realistic prices. Perhaps the cake IS large enough for us all to have a slice.

And lets hope this isn't just dropped off at a restoration shop for a blank cheque restoration . It's fine as is for low budget touring.

Greg

I looked at the Mecum site in the first post today and saw a more lengthy description and a wacky video of somebody pulling the Buick around on a strap behind another vehicle trying to pull-start it. They must have just added this. It finally fired up in a fit of sputtering. I agree it was a plum of a deal. Well, at last I know what happened to grand-dad's car.

Edited December 6, 2020 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Not what I would consider a proper venue for a brass era car.   My opinion is usually when marketed well that a brass car will always achieve top dollar for whatever it is - will be interesting to see if that holds true for "wrong venue."  (oops, apparently wrong venue really does hurt).   I usually list a brass era car out on Horseless carriage club - they tend to move pretty fast too. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Perhaps someday people will figure out that each auction company has specializations with  "one size does not fit all" and that you need to have specialized X with whatever company is known for dealing with specialized X.  Many of the auction companies have tried to diversify, but .... and still seeing low results on the "what they are not known for."  It all falls under "let people be good at what they are good at" and what they are not good at is an opportunity to work with someone who deals in whatever the needed niche.

 

I just recently had to do a clean-up/dealt with "give an inch and take a mile" - ie. not every widow housewife is stupid and/or wants to bail at pennies on the dollar. 

 

Real Estate:  Location, Location, & Location 

 

Cars:  Strategy, Strategy, & Strategy

 

 

 

[edinmass]

Unfortunately, too often lawyers are involved in selling cars in estates........and MOST have no clue as to how to handle cars that are pre war. That car would have done better on eBay than a half assed auction where it doesn’t belong. We see it all the time on CCCA cars........like Walter Miller’s cars that got sent to Auburn in the middle of the pandemic......Auburn in a non pandemic setting was probably just “ok” at best.....add in the pandemic .............most of the cars ate up the money in shipping..........they should have sat for a year and went to Hershey, but sometimes tax, storage and family issues prevents the vehicles getting to the right venue.

Edited December 6, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, trimacar said:

Well, this is a 35/40 HP car, and one of the best looking 1909/10 cars out there, high off the ground and a long hood.

 

That’s a parts car price for these models.

 

I agree, get running as is, clean up some of the obvious things, and drive it.  Only problem is you’d need to drive gently with the original crankcase....

Several thoughts.........first is, when buying a brass Buick as listed above......even experienced owners have fair and debatable thoughts on exactly what it is....Model/year/series/body/chassis. All the more reason to PAY AN EXPERT before you buy. Subtle differences on cars like this can make a world of difference in price and drivability. I don’t know anything about early Buick’s except you need to really go to school on them. The “small” and “big” Buick’s look similar to me........but looking at selling price is usually a good indication of what a car is..........good and bad..........while this Buick didn’t bring huge money......the question is............was it a deal or is the sales number the new retail reality.............no one knows for sure. In another twelve months we can look back at this sale and others, and have a definitive answer. My best guess is the car sold at or near fair market value............with the internet there are few unknown sales among the knowledgeable people in the small world that they live. ............

Edited December 6, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

I have probably said it a hundred times. "I would rather have a wrinkled original than a flawless copy."

 

If my circumstances were a bit different? That would have been exactly the buy I would love to have made.

[edinmass]

Just another thought............the people who pull started a car that probably hasn’t run in 25 years......bunch of hacks. That car should have had the pan dropped, and the engine and chassis properly lubricated befor attempting a start. Hopefully they didn’t do any damage........the valves sure looked dry........