"Clone" definition

[TAKerry]

12 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

 

Looks like  an SSCA race car to me, maybe a TRANS-AM, several clubs Vintage race them. Do they have to be legit race cars with the old log books and proven provenance or grocery getters with fancy back windows and decals? \

Bob

I think the car above is the first Shelby mustang made, hence the record price. 

[TAKerry]

On the flip side, I know a guy that bought a special edition trans am and is downgrading by restomoding and turning it into a 'reg' trans am.

[padgett]

"Looks like  an SSCA race car to me" - the "BP" (B Production) on the side is an SCCA class  (My SBC 'vette also was in BP, big blocks were in "A"). 98 was Shelby's favorite number. I suspect Ken Miles drove that car which would explain the price.

Edited September 18, 2020 by padgett (see edit history)

[Robert G. Smits]

After reading this post a couple thoughts come to mind:

!.  As long as there is no deception between buyer and seller who cares.

2. Although cloning for profit will never disappear many clones were created by individual hobby minded individuals who simply set out to build something they desired but couldn't afford at the time.

3. I may be mistaken but I detect a "holier than thou" attitude in some of the posts.  This is a big hobby, I appreciate your opinion but I do not have to agree especially since it is MY money to spend as I please.  If a car is listed as a clone or tribute where is the problem?

4. I own 25 antique cars and one clone and have won the Presidents Cup and have scored 100 points in CCCA many times if my memory is correct, Guess which car I drove to coffee this morning. I am also adding a OD transmission and Vintage Air which I couldn't do if it were real. When I purchased it I was not looking for a clone but slowly the advantages of a clone became apparent.  I drive my cars and haven't had a car on a show field in 20 years

 

Edited September 18, 2020 by Robert G. Smits (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

 The thought that comes to my mind about the topic " Clone" definition on a AACA site is members discussing how cars are cloned or faked, how to spot them, how to warn fellow AACA enthusiast so not to get deceived in a sale.

 

 Knowing what AACA stands for and why we are all here and not on the Jalopy journal I find it hard understanding how a AACA members would advocate clones in the general forum. I know many people who have modified cars and myself included ( although they are not pretend to be cars) but we don't show up at the wrong party with them.  

[gregleck]

No one mentioned the term "replica."

 

I have a very well done replica of a 1936 Auburn Boattail Speedster.  Occasionally someone will ask, "Is it real?"

 

I tell them if it was real, I wouldn't be there in front of them - rather, I would be on my yacht in the south of France.

 

I will never own a "real" one - not at $800,000 to $1 million dollars.  And if I did, I would not be driving it.

 

I've driven this "fake" about 3000 miles in the last year, with the longest trip 700 miles from home.  The reliability and availability of parts allows me to do this.  But the biggest joy is the smiles I get from kids, age eight to eighty, and the opportunity to talk to others about cars.

[1937hd45]

1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

 The thought that comes to my mind about the topic " Clone" definition on a AACA site is members discussing how cars are cloned or faked, how to spot them, how to warn fellow AACA enthusiast so not to get deceived in a sale.

 

 Knowing what AACA stands for and why we are all here and not on the Jalopy journal I find it hard understanding how a AACA members would advocate clones in the general forum. I know many people who have modified cars and myself included ( although they are not pretend to be cars) but we don't show up at the wrong party with them.  

 

 

Well, You mentioned the Jalopy Journal first so I'll add this to the discussion. If you wish to show your "Hot Rod" in the race car class at Hershey or any other AACA National Meet you have to have it certified first. The car is proven to be the car you say it  is and has a racing past proven with photos and other documentation, restored to how it looked in the old photo. The ONLY CLASS in AACA were you know you are looking at the real deal, not a made up or upgraded vehicle. Bob 

[MotiveLensPhoto]

2 hours ago, Robert G. Smits said:

After reading this post a couple thoughts come to mind:

!.  As long as there is no deception between buyer and seller who cares.

2. Although cloning for profit will never disappear many clones were created by individual hobby minded individuals who simply set out to build something they desired but couldn't afford at the time.

3. I may be mistaken but I detect a "holier than thou" attitude in some of the posts.  This is a big hobby, I appreciate your opinion but I do not have to agree especially since it is MY money to spend as I please.  If a car is listed as a clone or tribute where is the problem?

4. I own 25 antique cars and one clone and have won the Presidents Cup and have scored 100 points in CCCA many times if my memory is correct, Guess which car I drove to coffee this morning. I am also adding a OD transmission and Vintage Air which I couldn't do if it were real. When I purchased it I was not looking for a clone but slowly the advantages of a clone became apparent.  I drive my cars and haven't had a car on a show field in 20 years

 

I agree. Fake denotes (to me) deception. Someone saying a product is a clone or tribute or replica or whatever removes the deception.

[John348]

8 minutes ago, Golden73 said:

I agree. Fake denotes (to me) deception. Someone saying a product is a clone or tribute or replica or whatever removes the deception.

 

My Grandfather had what he called "fake teeth" I don't think he was looking to deceive anyone.

 

Many humans don't have all of their original parts, and even some have some parts enhanced to be something that they were not.

 

Clone cars are like hairpieces the more money spent the more realistic they look. 

[Guest]

"Enhanced"

Jeez, you oughta take a gander at some of the elderly dames around Palm Springs! 😆

[padgett]

Sometime I think Florida has a "silicone beach". That said plagerism is wonderful but I guess some can't be bothered to read the whole thread. To me a "clone" is an exact nut, bolt, and sloppy welds copy of the original. Original factory defects are a plus. A "tribute" car can have a modern (or lesser) drivetrain but look kinda like the original. 20-20 would fit. Replica is more of a personal expression of what the original car could have been at the time the original car was built. Resto-mod is an original (or replica) body on a modern chassis and interior.

[John348]

5 hours ago, padgett said:

Sometime I think Florida has a "silicone beach". That said plagerism is wonderful but I guess some can't be bothered to read the whole thread. To me a "clone" is an exact nut, bolt, and sloppy welds copy of the original. Original factory defects are a plus. A "tribute" car can have a modern (or lesser) drivetrain but look kinda like the original. 20-20 would fit. Replica is more of a personal expression of what the original car could have been at the time the original car was built. Resto-mod is an original (or replica) body on a modern chassis and interior.

 

I really can't speak for anyone else, but I  read the entire thread, and what you said is just is your opinion, not to be confused with any one else's

Edited September 19, 2020 by John348 (see edit history)

[Robert G. Smits]

Again the "Old Car Hobby" encompasses a very diverse group of "private" individuals as demonstrated in this posting.  You don't make friends by calling their car a Fake.  At a time when the future of many clubs is in jeopardy we can't afford to be dismissive of others.  Think where the membership of this club would be if everyone over 70 resigned, and we are going to, some sooner than others.  Just my TCW.

[60FlatTop]

A few years ago the term "dogma" just feel on my ears and it seemed to apply so appropriately to my old car hobby experiences over the past 50 years. One of those things that sticks.

 

The instance of dogma surfacing in my vocabulary is entertaining in itself. On the news the leader of a South American country had been deemed "dangerously dogmatic" by sources in the US government. Being one to enjoy taking things literally I thought about the meaning. I realized that I could be called "playfully dogmatic" because I have fun believing my own BS when it suits the moment, a lot of fun.

 

In the hobby it is like the certifications and credentials mentioned above. Where did the person handing out certifications get certified to give them?

 

Of all the facets of the old car hobby I like the cars best. Always have, always will.

[Billy Kingsley]

Modified cars are more welcome on here than 70s, 80s, 90s cars, and later. 

[padgett]

Is always interesting how some chose to interpret what I say. When there is a prefix like "To me" that is my personal opinion. If it is something I know I'll say so often with a citation/link if I remember where it came from. If "from memory (no guarantees)' means exactly that.

 

Usually to find the answer to a question you already must know most of the answer and that is where many stumble. Google/Bing/etc. are wonderful access points but can get swamped easily if not specific. Some makes and models (mostly GM after 1963) I have the resources at hand down to differences in assembly plants and TSB/slipstreamed changes. Others (e.g. Fords) I do not.

 

Do have an opinion on the meaning of "clone" and seems to be more strict than most but the I love the English language and what can be done with it.

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, Billy Kingsley said:

Modified cars are more welcome on here than 70s, 80s, 90s cars, and later. 

Is that a observation or a statement concerning the rules of the general section of the forum.

 

General forum for everyone interested in antique automobiles.

 

Two of my vehicles are modified street/grand touring track cars. When they were modified they no longer were antiques.

[padgett]

Is really a problematic issue that on one hand some bemoan declining numbers and other chant for tighter restrictions.

Have to admit I probably have never had a 100% stock car in my life. Many I have just reworked (programmed) to run under 190F because I've found everything lasts longer. Even though my Judge came with G70 bias-belteds on 14x6" steel wheels, it now has '78 Firebird 15x8 snowflakes with metric BFG radials had added disk front brakes, a 4-pinion saf-T-trac, and mostly '70 442 convertible suspension with delrin bushings (John the Z did not believe in rear sway bars. I differ). All is 70's period correct.

 

I tend to focus on keeping the cars running particularly when "factory" parts become unobtanium or obsolete & thought that was the original AACA charter. I do keep factory replaced part in big baggies.

 

Understand that to some, 100% original is the goal but a) do not think that is practical, b) Almost impossible to determine what that means, and c) All of my cars are to be driven and enjoyed and not serve as static displays that may or may not function. Personally need AC in closed cars and consider tires mainly by traction in rain. Are plenty over 25 years old that qualify.

 

Not trying to offend anyone, just think there is room for both here and probably is more evident in the popular sub-forums.

[Billy Kingsley]

3 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Is that a observation or a statement concerning the rules of the general section of the forum.

 

General forum for everyone interested in antique automobiles.

 

Two of my vehicles are modified street/grand touring track cars. When they were modified they no longer were antiques.

 

My observation. Go look at the comments in the "how have your tastes changed" thread, and tell me that someone who loves 70s cars will feel welcome here. 

I already know that's rhetorical, by the way. 

[alsancle]

40 minutes ago, Billy Kingsley said:

 

My observation. Go look at the comments in the "how have your tastes changed" thread, and tell me that someone who loves 70s cars will feel welcome here. 

I already know that's rhetorical, by the way. 

 

I posted a 70s car that I want and an 80s car I want too.   I could be the biggest elitist on here except for Ed.    I wouldn't take the negative comments too seriously,  it is mostly just b*** busting.

[alsancle]

Now that I think about it,  I'll talk 90s too as long as it is 93-96 Fleetwood Brougham or 4x4 stick trucks.

Edited September 19, 2020 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

48 minutes ago, alsancle said:

   I could be the biggest elitist on here except for Ed.    I wouldn't take the negative comments too seriously,  it is mostly just b*** busting.

How can a poor, low class Frenchman from the wrong side of the tracks be elitist? I will confess to being a car snob............with a narrow mind on what I think is desirable. I like machines that are exceptionally well built......clearly not a race car fan.......even though they are always the most expensive collector car. My interest in cars is an era or concept that started about 1912 and ended about 1936. Craftsmanship, technology, reliability, engineering, styling, are all things that appeal to me. Of the last three purchases for myself, one was a 1915 Ford T...............and the 1917 White.........the third has yet to be unveiled. I bought the T for two reasons..........it’s historical significance to the modern world............and it’s the ultimate contrast to everything with wheels I have ever collected. The simplicity of a T is just as impressive as the complicated construction of a Pierce 66 with a cast aluminum body. The contrast is stunning. Back in high school I had a 68 Mustang..........because no one in my town had Fords for hot rods......they were all Chevrolet, Pontiac, and Chrysler........I wanted to be different. Having spent thousands of hours in the garage.........I know what interests me.........”my taste is simple.......I like the best!”  

Edited September 19, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[padgett]

In high school I didn't have a driver's license - difficult when a senior. Once empowered was infested by Jaguars, after a bunch (were quite cheap) I took the cure but still have a need for 40 psi at 3,000 rpm. Then came the USAF and GMI. Now prefer interesting GM cars.

[95Cardinal]

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite signs EVER.

This was at a few of the market stalls outside the historical city entrance in Ephesus, Turkey:

 

I think the smaller images were photos of Breitling, Rolex and TAG-Heuer watches.

 

 

Too bad the builders of "clone" cars aren't all that honest...or have a similar, self-deprecating sense of humor.

 

 

[John348]

45 minutes ago, 95Cardinal said:

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite signs EVER.

This was at a few of the market stalls outside the historical city entrance in Ephesus, Turkey:

 

I think the smaller images were photos of Breitling, Rolex and TAG-Heuer watches.

 

 

Too bad the builders of "clone" cars aren't all that honest...or have a similar, self-deprecating sense of humor.

 

 

 

Very good Joe! I worked in Times Square on and off for about 20 years, and always saw a tourist's buying a "ROMEX" watches,

 

Congratulations on the Zenith Award with your Buick Cabellero, stunning car. I just got finished reading the article this afternoon 

[95Cardinal]

1 minute ago, John348 said:

 

Very good Joe! I worked in Times Square on and off for about 20 years, and always saw a tourist's buying a "ROMEX" watches,

 

Congratulations on the Zenith Award with your Buick Cabellero, stunning car. I just got finished reading the article this afternoon 

Thanks, John!

[JACK M]

15 hours ago, 95Cardinal said:

This was at a few of the market stalls outside the historical city entrance in Ephesus, Turkey:

 

I was there and a young man (kid) came up to me and offered post cards, he spoke clearly telling me "Look, the golden horn, the Blue Masque, Ephesus" and the likes. He repeated his line often.

But when I asked him where I could find a post office or at least stamps he was totally lost. He had bee coached in that one sales line and probably didn't even know what he was saying.

I remember my mom took a photo of a camel as we were driving off. The old guy got way pissed off as we hadn't paid him. He was throwing rocks at us as mom yelled "Gun it Jack".

Mom was a lot of fun to travel with except she always bought heavy things that she could not carry herself.

Edited September 20, 2020 by JACK M (see edit history)

[padgett]

Sounds like Tacy Collini.

[61-63]

I think Bob Smits comments above are spot on.  As long as there is no misrepresentation involved who cares and what is the problem?  I am and have been working on a '63 Catalina 421SD fake/clone/tribute (whatever?) for twelve years now, and trading/buying/selling "correct" parts for it for twenty.  It is a real task to research and then do one of these things right.  When the real ones were made I was a senior in high school and no way could I have had one.  To see disparaging remarks about them irritates me and seem to me to come mainly from affluent people who want to look down on those who do not have the resources they have and therefore have to resort to "fakes"  in order to own something.

[padgett]

Think that is great just if you plan to drive any distance use the iron NASCAR headers and not the aluminum ones that used to drip on the strip. I trust you have Pete McCarthy's book.

 

I still prefer "replica"

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, 61-63 said:

I think Bob Smits comments above are spot on.  As long as there is no misrepresentation involved who cares and what is the problem?  I am and have been working on a '63 Catalina 421SD fake/clone/tribute (whatever?) for twelve years now, and trading/buying/selling "correct" parts for it for twenty.  It is a real task to research and then do one of these things right.  When the real ones were made I was a senior in high school and no way could I have had one.  To see disparaging remarks about them irritates me and seem to me to come mainly from affluent people who want to look down on those who do not have the resources they have and therefore have to resort to "fakes"  in order to own something.

 

Have you ever tried looking at it from the other side? I have a 62 Catalina and a 69 LeMans. They are built for grand touring and the street. They are modified from their original spec. just like a clone car but the last thing I would want to do is talk about how the suspensions are set up or differ from stock or how the engines or brakes differ from stock here on this forum. This forum is not about mods and cloning.

  Originally I thought the thread was about how to spot a clone, or how to warn people of buying a clone that was represented as the real deal and that's OK, trouble is the thread went in the wrong direction.

 

 

If I want to feel more comfortable talking about cloning or modifying a Pontiac I would go to Performance years forum where they talk about everything stock to fully modified. Most people don't care what people do with their cars, but what they do care about is well, just ask John 348 about VCCA when some members took over running of the club and decided to let modified cars in.

 

 

 

1.  

 

[61-63]

I have Pete's book and two sets of the NASCAR cast iron SD exhaust manifolds, plus at this point each and every other component a real dual quad SD car would have had off the assembly line.  What I said about it being a real task to do one reflects the trouble I had to go through to collect all of this stuff.  It takes years and at this point some of it is probably unobtainable.

[padgett]

Including the center carb ?

[TAKerry]

What started as a seemingly harmless question certainly has become polarizing!  I understand that the AACA has a statement to the idea of the preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types. I realize this to mean (to paraphrase) vehicles from single cylinder brass era to muscle cars. I think there is even a show class for proven original type period hot rods and race cars. There is even a class for 'reproduction cars' the Shay roadsters come to mind. But it seems that a 'clone' is a 4 letter word.  I read at least once a month on car forums and publications how the 'hobby is dying', and 'bring a kid to a car show' to get the youth involved. Maybe its time to be a bit more understanding and inclusive rather than elitist.

[Pfeil]

1 hour ago, TAKerry said:

What started as a seemingly harmless question certainly has become polarizing!  I understand that the AACA has a statement to the idea of the preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types. I realize this to mean (to paraphrase) vehicles from single cylinder brass era to muscle cars. I think there is even a show class for proven original type period hot rods and race cars. There is even a class for 'reproduction cars' the Shay roadsters come to mind. But it seems that a 'clone' is a 4 letter word.  I read at least once a month on car forums and publications how the 'hobby is dying', and 'bring a kid to a car show' to get the youth involved. Maybe its time to be a bit more understanding and inclusive rather than elitist.

 

It's not elitist, it's purist. A purist is not a bad person. Purist built this club and forum and you say maybe it's time for a change. 

I say maybe this is not for you and there are many clubs and web sites that fit the things you are interested in. That way everyone can have what they want.

[TAKerry]

Pfeil, Im not sure my membership in the AACA is up to you to decide. Whether I am a purist, elitist, or just a clone of one, I will keep my membership current.  

[Pfeil]

Just now, TAKerry said:

Pfeil, Im not sure my membership in the AACA is up to you to decide. Whether I am a purist, elitist, or just a clone of one, I will keep my membership current.  

Not up to me at all, read the mission statement of the club and the general section for guidance.

[Robert G. Smits]

I think there is room in the club for both of you. If not I’m out of here. 

[padgett]

"The preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types. " that seems to leave room for all here. Maybe we need a new thread "for purists only" and keep the General Discussion weeelll general.

 

Personally am very catholic (small c) in my interests.

[alsancle]

23 minutes ago, padgett said:

"The preservation and enjoyment of automotive history of all types. " that seems to leave room for all here. Maybe we need a new thread "for purists only" and keep the General Discussion weeelll general.

 

Personally am very catholic (small c) in my interests.

 

Isn't that backwards?   If there was anything,   shouldn't it be a single thread or sub forum for cars that are outside the purpose of the club?