Engineering vs Esthetics in a first purchase of a CCCA Classic

[wayne sheldon]

7 hours ago, John Bloom said:

I especially appreciate that no one has said "abandon your desire for the earlier thirties looks and go get a 38/39 Packard or Cadillac.  They are nice cars, but I want that earlier look.  

 

 

I do not know if I will ever be able to buy another car or not. Family issues over the years have forced me into selling all the cars I had acquired and hoped to keep for the rest of my life. I had basically all the cars I wanted, several in good tour-ready condition. All I have left is several project cars that I would have liked to have sold years ago. But those will do for now. If I can get a couple of them done, at least I can begin to tour again.

If I do somehow manage to alter my circumstances enough that I can seriously consider buying a decent car again, I will be in a slightly worse position. I really like the nickel era. One of the clubs I used to tour with cuts off acceptance after 1927! I had a couple nice cars that I liked to use with them. Although at least three of my project piles qualify for their "Nickel era", I would really want anything I bought to also qualify for them as well. I know what I like. And what I would want. Although I do like and admire many cars of the early '30s, what I really want is something that can "keep up" from the nickel era! If my circumstances do ever change enough? And as I often look at cars for sale that I know I could really like. I see many cars from '28 into the mid '30s that I know I would like. But I really think I would hold out for that nickel era car.  Just me. Do what is best for what you want and would most enjoy.

[60FlatTop]

16 hours ago, John Bloom said:

I appreciate your advice to ignore the chicken littles.

 

I love the Chicken Little metaphor Don't worry, there is always an unsuspecting Foghorn Leghorn you can sell your mistakes to.

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

15 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

John,

It's not the car, it's the Martin Custom tires.

And they went out of business when ?

Ed in Mass, once wrote that he would not use them for anything other than static display in a museum, and that's if the car was up on jacks !

 

We won't discuss the "Denmans" on the Imperial, will we ?

 

Mike in Colorado

 

I have serious issue with the Martin tires - I told you about the seemingly nice ones on the Packard Darrin that had the beads 3/4 broken through and ... - it was horrifying to see them once off the car and that was an accident waiting to happen - WE WERE LUCKY.  And Ed has told you of the dry rotted ones he has encountered.  And, I know you recently had them off and replaced the tubes, but ....   They had to stop making them sometime in late 1960's - if not earlier.  

As a sidenote, we replace the Packard Darrin tires with Coker radials and someone missed a sticker in the casing - we had a blow out fortunately on the rear right after exiting the highway from going 65mph -and there was smoke and ... - so I am not saying new tires are end all be all, but I still would rather be driving on a 10 year old or newer tire.

 

I am not going to give you static on the Denman's on the Imperial - There are old Denman's and also newer ones - I think they went into business late 1960's and they have went out of business for 10 years ago (but it took the dealers 5 years to get through the stock and a few sizes are still available).  The only set I have ever looked at cross eyed were a set on a 1929 Packard 640 Roadster  that I put together so it could be better assessed for restoration - the whitewalls were alligatored and they struck me as hard as a rock.    They are a gorgeous tire on the road too.   Have fun, enjoy, and wear them out.

 

[John_Mereness]

10 hours ago, zepher said:

I know a lot of people would be turned off by the colors but I like the combination.

Paint Color is a whole discussion too:  Color choice can really hurt a cars value, but it can also allow someone to get into something nice more inexpensively (just know going in that you will have the same issue on your sale too - ie problem does not go away).  I have put a lot of people into cars that have paint color issues - and most never get changed due to the cost/difficulty/timing/etc., but I preach touching up, changing wheel color, changing fender color, changing pinstripe color, and .... (pick and choose the battle).  

 

By the way, I have also put people into cars needing both cosmetic work and mechanical work - they do the mechanical and then get hurt on the sale side as they did not do the cosmetic and you have the opposite/visa versa problem too (aka for top dollar a car usually has to have the best of both Worlds - or at least a pretty decent of both Worlds).

[John_Mereness]

3 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

 

Froghorn is probably going to have to take a price reduction on the paint colors - just saying !!!

[John_Mereness]

16 hours ago, John Bloom said:

 

  I am 6'2. 

 

This "height" will knock you out of a whole bunch of cars - if you want to drive them without being crippled after 20 minutes.  

 

Dad is 6"2 and I am 6'1.  Sedans with adjustable front seats not attached to the center door posts work well and certain Packard/s with fixed seats and an adjustable drivers cushion (but you have to try them out).  Opera Coupes and 2 door Broughams work well too.   Interestingly, the 1932 RR PI was FABULOUS seating once you performed your monkey moves to get into it. 

 

As to Convertibles - I have had to redo the front seat cushions on most.  The exceptions are Convertible Victories - but they are rare cars and usually have a pretty high entry point as to cost, plus later 30's/40's Convertible coupes; and the other rare exceptions I have found are the 34 Cadillac V-16 All-Weather Phaeton was fine, the 35 Packard Twelve Convertible Sedan was fine, and Duesenberg Murphy Convertible Coupe (J330) was fine too.  Just a small sampling: The 1936 Cadillac 75 Series Town Cabriolet was awful even after a 100% seat rework (just not enough space any way about it due to the flat consul), the 29 Auburn 8-90 Cabriolet was fine after reworking seat back, and the 35-36 Auburn Phaetons have had to have the seat backs unstuffed (and not needed, but I had bottom cushion remade to be more firm) - and came out very nice. 

[60FlatTop]

4 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

they do the mechanical and then get hurt on the sale side as they did not do the cosmetic and you have the opposite/visa versa problem too

Even if I just buy a car for resale I try to split my investment, work or $, 50/50 between mechanical and cosmetic. The shiny is what sells and the mechanical rarely adds value.

If you think you are going to keep a car forever it is still a good idea to keep the cosmetic/mechanical relationship. You never know when you might have a "fire sale".

 

I was in my 20's when I figured out the 25% relationship of investment. Every $1,000 more that you are willing to pay will get you $4,000 of the seller's work hobbyist to hobbyist. My personal experience has been with cars under $20,000. I imagine it keeps those proportions or gets worse as it increases.

 

Somewhat on the fringe of the topic, the Classic Car Club of America was formed in 1952. The mission statement was written to apply for a group of 10 to 25 year old cars at the time. The club was less than ten years old when I got into the hobby at 11 years old. I quickly learned about them and their standards of approval. They have loosely applied those standards in a few instances and I have loosely applied them in my own judgement for purchasing old cars. My preference has been to look at a good 15 to 20 year old car from the CCCA standard, just disregarding the year era requirement. I have three that I am very happy with. And the years go by quickly. One is 55 years old already.

 

I guess it is the motivation. Is the goal to own a car selected by a group? Or to own a car of a higher standard?

[John_Mereness]

17 hours ago, John Bloom said:

There is a super charged Cord in Chicago that is a project on Craigslist for 40K.  I did spend a few minutes daydreaming about that, but resisted the voices telling me to "walk toward the light"....that isn't the right car for me at this time, but fun to think about.  seems like a car to break my heart.

If they "call" to you, then ...  

 

There are a bunch of people out there that can help you - My friends with them are great and I love the ACD Club.  When they are right they are probably the finest driving cars pre-1953.  

 

Sidenote:  My brother-in-law's cousin bought a Supercharged Custom Beverly from an Cord Family member (post their being in an accident with it) and dove right in - he loved it, but with zero/zippo mechanical skills he grew weary after a couple of years.  

 

Dad's 3 questions:

1. Are you an Engineer ?

2. Are you handy ?

3. Do you have a lot of disposable income ?

If the answers are no, then the car probably will not perform the way you want it to. 

 

 

 

[TexRiv_63]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

Paint Color is a whole discussion too:  Color choice can really hurt a cars value, but it can also allow someone to get into something nice more inexpensively (just know going in that you will have the same issue on your sale too - ie problem does not go away).  

When I went to look at my 32 Cadillac my wife's first comment was "It looks like a clown car!" so of course that stuck throughout my ownership. The colors seemed like a 70s thing but I never minded them. And at sale time it did not have much of an effect.

[John Bloom]

48 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

If they "call" to you, then ...  

 

There are a bunch of people out there that can help you - My friends with them are great and I love the ACD Club.  When they are right they are probably the finest driving cars pre-1953.  

 

Sidenote:  My brother-in-law's cousin bought a Supercharged Custom Beverly from an Cord Family member (post their being in an accident with it) and dove right in - he loved it, but with zero/zippo mechanical skills he grew weary after a couple of years.  

 

Dad's 3 questions:

1. Are you an Engineer ?

2. Are you handy ?

3. Do you have a lot of disposable income ?

If the answers are no, then the car probably will not perform the way you want it to. 

 

 

 

Lol. As for height, you should see me fold into this midget. It isn’t pretty, but once in, not to bad. As I get older, it will only get worse. 
 

Your dad’s 3 questions:

no I am not an engineer.  My spare time to dive in is temporarily affected by three kids and a grand dog who moved back into our empty nest (just became empty sept 2019). 
 

I am pretty handy, with electrical issues likely being my biggest weakness. 
 

as for disposable income ......  with 4 kids having 8 semesters of college each, I have 24 of those in my rear view mirror and 8 more to go. The sum total of all of that would/will finance several notable classics, but we won’t go there. No regrets about helping my kids.   A lot of my current focus on this hunt reflects me coming towards the end of this cash outflow and looking forward to picking something up I am excited about and that my tastes have been gravitating towards these last 5 years. 
 

john

 

[John_Mereness]

18 minutes ago, TexRiv_63 said:

When I went to look at my 32 Cadillac my wife's first comment was "It looks like a clown car!" so of course that stuck throughout my ownership. The colors seemed like a 70s thing but I never minded them. And at sale time it did not have much of an effect.

If this were sitting in my garage, I would find a set of factory metal sidemount covers and paint them the darker fender color (I often go body color, but in this case darker may be the better choice), I would change the wheels to a very dark maroon (and pinstripe too), and I would add a heron ornament/mascot.   You probably still took some sort of hit on sale via price or time via colors, but price probably possibly was offset by it being a V-12 and overall a fairly well restored car too. 

[John_Mereness]

1 minute ago, John Bloom said:

Lol. As for height, you should see me fold into this midget. It isn’t pretty, but once in, not to bad. As I get older, it will only get worse. 
 

Your dad’s 3 questions:

no I am not an engineer.  My spare time to dive in is temporarily affected by three kids and a grand dog who moved back into our empty nest (just became empty sept 2019). 
 

I am pretty handy, with electrical issues likely being my biggest weakness. 
 

as for disposable income ......  with 4 kids having 8 semesters of college each, I have 24 of those in my rear view mirror and 8 more to go. The sum total of all of that would/will finance several notable classics, but we won’t go there. No regrets about helping my kids.   A lot of my current focus on this hunt reflects me coming towards the end of this cash outflow and looking forward to picking something up I am excited about and that my tastes have been gravitating towards these last 5 years. 
 

john

 

I have stayed away from the Midgets and the Sprites, but I do have an appreciation for smaller cars.  As to British, there is a 1963 AH 300 BJ7MKII in Colorado Red in the garage - it was a quest of looking at perhaps 30 under 30K miles to find a 60K mile car that was a hobby car from new and I am the first owner who was not an AH Club President.  It also for the longest time (and still may be) the only mostly unrestored car that has ever achieved Gold level status in the AH Club.  Interesting, the car has pedal extenders on it and it is dreamy to drive as a result - the pedal extenders allow for your legs to not be straight out and still clear dash and even the proper sized steering wheel.  

 

A rare top up photo:

 

 

 

[John_Mereness]

This is buddy a 2.5 year old Airedale (Shadow named after the comic book character) - probably the best dog you could ever have (thank god though we had his wagon fixed as there would be nothing safe on the globe from puppies and whole personality was out of hand prior), but still a terror (oh, I mean Terrier - they are pretty textbook all alike).   He can dig a better hole than a bulldozer too.  He also takes about 2 hours + a day of care. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

On 9/12/2020 at 12:55 PM, TexRiv_63 said:

 

This is a FINE car !!!

[FLYER15015]

Yup, it's a cute little thing.

 

Did you ever notice that all the 20' - 30's cars were designed by folks who used the frame rails as a "constraint" for their body shell designs.

If it were not for the grille shell, and whether the side windows tops were straight or crowned, you could not hardly tell them apart.

Airflows being the exception, and they were initially not well received, I'm told.

 

I can't tell you how many guys, young and old have looked at my car, and said "my dad had a Packard / Cadillac / Lincoln just like this". Take your pick.

I just smile and invite them to look at the grille shell badge.

Kind of enjoy the look on their wives face.............

 

Mike in Colorado

 

 

 

 

Mike in colorado

Edited September 15, 2020 by FLYER15015 (see edit history)

[Steve_Mack_CT]

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/d/scottsdale-1929-cadillac-4-door-sedan/7198166452.html

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/7846724972/permalink/10159045364954973/

Edited September 18, 2020 by Steve_Mack_CT
Added Packard link (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/d/scottsdale-1929-cadillac-4-door-sedan/7198166452.html

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/7846724972/permalink/10159045364954973/

 

I love the look of that!

 

[alsancle]

Interesting to compare the production body Caddy with the catalog custom Lebaron Stutz of the same year.  

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Profile doesn't look all that different if one imagined the quarter window closed AJ.  Great colors, blackwalls, nice lines even in 4 door form. Caddy expertise right here starting with Ed, Carl, etc.

[alsancle]

14 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Profile doesn't look all that different if one imagined the quarter window closed AJ.  Great colors, blackwalls, nice lines even in 4 door form. Caddy expertise right here starting with Ed, Carl, etc.

 

Hard to tell because of the slight angle on the Stutz picture,  but that Lebaron body has a cowl pushed back over the dash that is 4 or 5 inches longer than production.   We need to measure both.   Typical coachbuilder trick was to extend the cowl in to the cabin.   Hood on my Stearns is 72" as Brunn lengthened the cowl.

[Matt Harwood]

I think if that Cadillac runs and drives properly, it's a good value. I've sold several similar cars for considerably more and if I were to sell mine, I'd price it in the $30s.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

  Hood on my Stearns is 72" as Brunn lengthened the cowl.

Or, half the length on my A bumper to bumper with a few whiskers to spare! 😁

[alsancle]

3 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Profile doesn't look all that different if one imagined the quarter window closed AJ.  Great colors, blackwalls, nice lines even in 4 door form. Caddy expertise right here starting with Ed, Carl, etc.

 

Steve,  the other thing I should have pointed out about the Stutz is that with the Timken worm drive it sits lower than your typical 1929 car.   I would expect it to be very noticeable next to the Caddy, but can't say I've actually done the measurements.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

I see Stutz is on dollies, would be interesting to see it on the ground.  You've got a trained eye, surely it sits lower.  That said, big wheelbase gives a low effect on Caddy.  

 

Kind of related, Walter Miller cars included a very modestly priced Stutz sedan and Chrysler roadster went for a lot less than he was asking prior to his passing.  Goes back to related discussions about choices..  

Edited September 18, 2020 by Steve_Mack_CT (see edit history)

[alsancle]

30 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

I see Stutz is on dollies, would be interesting to see it on the ground.  You've got a trained eye, surely it sits lower.  That said, big wheelbase gives a low effect on Caddy.  

 

Kind of related, Walter Miller cars included a very modestly priced Stutz sedan and Chrysler roadster went for a lot less than he was asking prior to his passing.  Goes back to related discussions about choices..  

 

No comparison between Lebanon custom on 145” wheelbase and Walters parts car sold last week other than they are both closed and carry Stutz nameplates.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Not car for car AJ, and you reference parts car so assume it was rough.  Explains price as i just saw a list of results with a pic and number.  Thought maybe because it was green...

[wayne sheldon]

Health checks?

You or the pup?

[John_Mereness]

11 hours ago, Ben P. said:

So I just read this entire thread again to see exactly what prompted ⬆️ very dangerous picture and couldn’t figure it out. Doesn’t matter really, I’ll have pictures of the resulting damage in 8 weeks.

Right now he isn’t very photogenic because his eyes aren’t open yet and his true colors are not yet known because they are all born grey (that’s a hint).

It is another Terror but I’m not saying what type. Couple more hints: He’ll be about 1/3d the size of Buddy. They’re born in litters of 2 to 3 and fewer than 600 are born in North America per year.

Typically there’s a 2-3 year waiting list to get your name on one (if the breeder approves of the home you’d take it to) but I jumped that list when I emailed a photo of my 102 year old touring car and said, “I’ve owned this for TWO years now and have had no one to go on rides with.”

True story, and if that very dangerous picture wasn’t car related before — it is now.

 

(Of course this could all fall through. Many health checks have to occur before a deposit can even be accepted.)

 

John Bloom was speaking of his Grand Dog moving in and how that takes up time in your life matched to kids and ....  That said, Buddy takes up probably two full hours a day, so does cut into the time of a day.  And he is a Terrier of large scale "King of the Terriers" as often referred to, though he is just larger than most females and a little smaller than most males (they also come in Oorang  which is a Giant Airedale, but they are not necessarily AKC recognized) - my point being you get all the Terrier characteristics, but in an Airdale you get all those same characteristics bundled into  a much larger platform (including the "I do whatever I want because I am big" matched to "I may just not do what you want because I am big".  Buddy would not be AKC show-able either as he had his wagon fixed, but personality wise he was way out of hand prior.   Someone locally asked Ceasar why he did not spend any time on his program teaching Airedales and Terriers as a whole - he reply was that his show was only one hour.   One thing buddy has not yet learned is how to "lean in" on corners when in car - he has ended up on the floor a few times - working on this. 

[edinmass]

This is my Scotty Haggis. 37 pounds of pure muscle. Kind, and gentle.........and the easiest dog I ever had to train and manage. Wouldn’t hurt a fly. He’s as laid back a Jimmy Buffet. My female Scotty on the other hand is literally a terror......to anything but our family and barnyard pets. She won’t touch a chicken, turkey, or any of the other domestic animals..........anything that’s not part of the pack is instantly dead.........a true killing machine that is sweet to have on your lap watching tv or reading a book. I have never seen any animal with an on and off switch, but she goes from sweet to a serial killer in three seconds flat.

[Matt Harwood]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

This is my Scotty Haggis. 37 pounds of pure muscle. Kind, and gentle.........and the easiest dog I ever had to train and manage. Wouldn’t hurt a fly. He’s as laid back a Jimmy Buffet. My female Scotty on the other hand is literally a terror......to anything but our family and barnyard pets. She won’t touch a chicken, turkey, or any of the other domestic animals..........anything that’s not part of the pack is instantly dead.........a true killing machine that is sweet to have on your lap watching tv or reading a book. I have never seen any animal with an on and off switch, but she goes from sweet to a serial killer in three seconds flat.

 

I grew up with Scotties, Morris and Nigel. They were great dogs, very tolerant of kids and always loyal, apparently quite smart, although Nigel and my father always seemed to be having a contest of wills. I think the dog won as often as not.

[edinmass]

Here is a shot of a car, with dogs and the wife......so we at least stay a bit on topic. My male is huge......my female was a runt. Quite a contrast. Look close, the female......Tattie.......(Potato)......is tiny and hard to see. The car isn’t too bad either........

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

I had Max a Wheaton terrier from the time he was six weeks old until he was seventeen and a half. Smart, loved kids, never on a leash but never went off his property of 17 acres. He knew the property lines and just didn’t cross them. He would sit on back patio and watch over the horses. If a deer or raccoon would come on the property he would run to the pasture, round up the horses, herd them back toward the barn then chase the critter off the property. They were his horses and he was responsible to keep them safe. 
He went to the office with me every day and even went to customers offices. All I had to do was snap my fingers and point to the ground he he would come next to me sit down and look up to see what I wanted him to do.  He use to love to ride in the truck when we were pulling the horse trailer. He would nose open the back sliding window and go lay down on the bed cover while we were driving down the road. Scared the heck out of me when I would see him in the mirror. Finally wired the window shut to stop him. Great dog, great breed. 
Now to get back on topic ! 
dave s 

Edited September 29, 2020 by SC38DLS (see edit history)

[SC38dls]

Ed don’t let your wife see that last post! 

[edinmass]

3 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

Ed don’t let your wife see that last post! 

Bob, lets do a cost benefit analysis on all three things in the photo.........wife, car, and dogs. The car is NOT the most expensive of the three, and is much lower maintenance cost than the other two! 😝
 

Hope this post stays up! 👍

Edited September 29, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Back on topic........engineering and aesthetics..........

Here is the rear spring on my 1917 White touring car........20 leaves in the rear, 19 in the front. Now that is engineering........

 

Edited September 29, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Marty Roth]

My wife and I have both rescued, and raised numerous Dalmatians over the past 48 years since we started owning our own homes (not in rented apartments). They typically loved to go riding with us anytime we left the house, and especially when I fired up the Fire Truck, a 1051 Boardman-built Pumper, originally delivered to the Monsanto Chemical plant in Luling, Louisiana, and built on a Ford F-6 chassis. It carried 500 gallons of water, could draw from either side, could pump up to 500 gallons per minute from either side, and had a High-Pressure Fog unit mounted on the Tail-Board. Driven and participating in the New Orleans Fire Dept's 100th Anniversary Muster, the truck was also a big hit during local parades, tours, and just plain neighborhood fun for many years until being passed to a group of siblings who owned a Lafayette, LA restaurant (Evie's?) in a strip mall at the intersection of Ambassador Caffrey and Pinhook.

[zepher]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

Back on topic........engineering and aesthetics..........

Here is the rear spring on my 1917 White touring car........20 leaves in the rear, 19 in the front. Not that is engineering........

 

 

 

How about some pics of that massive frame?
I am very curious to see it.

[Graham Man]

OK I am bias towards the Graham cars the Blue Streaks are easy to drive, just like any 1960's car easy steering, juice brakes, nice acceleration.  That is why I would look at a Buick....you ask why? because they made the Buick 8 until 1952, with almost all the same engine parts.  So the engine will not set you back a fortune if you have a problem, love the Grahams but I am always afraid I will have a major problems with impossible to find parts.

 

1933 Graham 64

 

1933 Buick Series 90 asking 37K    Hemmings link

[edinmass]

1 minute ago, zepher said:

 

 

How about some pics of that massive frame?
I am very curious to see it.

 

It was on my things to do......I’ll try and see if I can get a good photo, it’s ridiculously thick.........beyond any reasonable reason for it........the more I service this car, the more I like it. That’s a very, very rare occurrence!

[Matt Harwood]

59 minutes ago, Graham Man said:

OK I am bias towards the Graham cars the Blue Streaks are easy to drive, just like any 1960's car easy steering, juice brakes, nice acceleration.  That is why I would look at a Buick....you ask why? because they made the Buick 8 until 1952, with almost all the same engine parts.  So the engine will not set you back a fortune if you have a problem, love the Grahams but I am always afraid I will have a major problems with impossible to find parts.

 

1933 Graham 64

 

1933 Buick Series 90 asking 37K    Hemmings link

 

That Graham sure is pretty!

 

As for the Buick in your post, it's local to me and had I not bought the '35 Lincoln it would be in my garage right now. If you're interested in a big Buick, you probably can't go wrong with that one (although it is not the same straight-8 as post-1936 cars).