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Engineering vs Esthetics in a first purchase of a CCCA Classic


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8 hours ago, edinmass said:

Three years before I was born!

Reminds me of Ronald Reagan who, when challenged about his relatively advanced age, said something to the effect that he refused to attack his opponent on the opponent's youth and inexperience.  I definitely can't use "inexperience" in your case, junior!

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Guarantee a '30s SS-90 or 100 will stop crowds, approach or exceed 100 mph. And the drivetrain is used in many other cars (just like GM FRACs). Was also a beautiful coupe (SS-1, 2). Thousands made.

 

1280px-1935_SS1_Airline_2.7.jpg

 

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BTW " Cadillac I believe was the first offering of Syncromesh" - wasn't that on 2nd & 3rd only ? First and Reverse were non-synchro. Did "all synchro" appear before the '50s ?

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On 10/8/2020 at 10:33 PM, Matt Harwood said:

Not sure it was the environmentalists who got asbestos banned. I think it was the people who didn't want lung cancer.

Just google the town "Asbestos Quebec" Killed lot's of workers .

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Just checked back into the thread. It's be a while, and I was surprised by the Pierce comment. By the way if you didn't like the frog headlights a new owner had a choice. IMHO styling beauty isn't just about a heal-on shot or even a profile. While some cars of this era have just let me flat, the rear end of the Pierce Arrow and it's sibling the Studebaker President has never let me down. 

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7 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Just checked back into the thread. It's be a while, and I was surprised by the Pierce comment. By the way if you didn't like the frog headlights a new owner had a choice. IMHO styling beauty isn't just about a heal-on shot or even a profile. While some cars of this era have just let me flat, the rear end of the Pierce Arrow and it's sibling the Studebaker President has never let me down. 

Some are headlight guys, some rear end guys. Regarding choices of headlights. Once decisions are made they can still be modified but to me they just never look just “ quite right” afterwards. Re-bodies are usually VERY expensive, but can be quite pleasing. Whatever way one goes just be mindful of transmissions, some can be pesky and some downright dangerous. In conclusion, enjoy the ride, keep up with maintenance, or you may wind up dead on the side of the road.

Edited by Doozer
Condense thought (see edit history)
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17 hours ago, alsancle said:


Blackwalls in the correct size would help alot.

 

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I do not mind the whitewalls, but when we get something Tan/Brown with Orange wheels I tend to lobby for them to get wheels painted Maroon very quickly (and pinstripe too). If it has been a solid Maroon, Dark Blue, Black, or .... car to begin with it would have sold for twice the money via recent RM sale.  When you hear me preaching about paint colors it is because the cars are large and 99.9% of time will always carry whatever paint and colors they received in restoration verses get repainted - it sounds nice to say you will repaint, but then reality sets in.   All said though, do not choose a car via its colors - choose it for its condition. 

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I like green cars!

As for two-tone beige/brown? Many years ago, a very good friend had a 1927 Cadillac limousine. One of two built Fleetwood body (if I recall correctly?), with divider window and leather upholstered driver's compartment. The car was very original, including the two-tone brown paint. And it was beautiful. He eventually sold it, to buy a Rolls Royce that needed significant restoration. Basically a solid running car, but the body had been abused and repainted badly a few times.. The aluminum had numerous small dings and dents in it, as if in storage it had been used to lean fence posts and tools against it. Without good information as to the original color, he had it painted to match the Cadillac he had sold. The Cadillac was original 1927 paint. So the color combination, although unusual, was original and era correct. Both cars looked very good those colors. 

Unfortunately, most Classic cars restored back in the '60s into the 2000s and painted two-tone beige and brown, to me, look awful. Usually the shades and/or tones are bad. Just a dab too much orange or pink in the mix and to my eye, the beige or brown becomes nasty looking. And most often, they clash rather than compliment each other.

The '31 Chrysler discussed above, to me, looks good enough for the body colors. However, I agree with John M's changing the wheel colors, and maybe even to the black-wall tires. The orange wheels tend to draw out the orange in the body colors. If I focus on the body itself, cover the wheels, it looks better to me.

If I found a ten million dollar winning lottery ticket on the sidewalk? I think I could really like that car.

Edited by wayne sheldon (see edit history)
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I agree, wheels, pinstripes, blackwall/Whitehall, contrast at the belt line, all of those can impact a color that you don’t care for.   It is a stunning car, but I grew up calling that color “baby poop brown”.  All the parents and grandparents know what I’m talking about.......we’ve all changed our fair share of them.  For some reason Toyota offers their version on new Tacoma trucks.  I don’t get it.   However, for a classic car of that era, I may like it a little more than white. 

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20 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Green cars... 😁

Green cars are the near kiss of death, matched to Tan/Brown/Orange, White, resale red on certain things, Hang Around Brown, Old Man Gold,  and there are a few other rules, plus Grey cars do not win at Concours events (albeit two have via Pebble Beach Concours, but they were extraordinary to begin with). And while some people like them, most do not and as a result you really cut into the market share.   I am not saying do not buy cars in these color - you can get a deal and a great car (though also realize you have the same problem going in as going out), but what I am saying is do not stand in line to hurt yourself financially when restoring/choosing paint colors - and to keep in mind CCCA cars are large and most of the time people never repaint them.   On the flip side of the coin, I will also preach restoring things in their original colors (for the most part) - especially custom built and famous cars that have a lineage. 

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17 hours ago, SC38DLS said:

How about this look 

 

 

4B35B858-CDFF-42D2-A3FC-977C87E8C009.jpeg

 

They did spring for the big bucks and bought the proper Firestone double whitewalls, though when Joe Faladori (SP) had Clay Cook restore it the first it featured blackwalls and looked just fine then too. I am surprised this has not sold - a well done restoration first time done, a well done restoration second time done, fantastic road beast, and rare as hen teeth. 

 

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Of course I poked John who I knew would articulate this well, partly to be wise a$$ but also, for good info. I think the point about size and infrequent repaints (unless your restoring) are very good points.  I agree with every other color but continue to be mystified on Green, certsin Model Js come to mind along with Packards, but I agree it is also marque, model, body style specific whether we are talking Classics or otherwise.

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28 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Of course I poked John who I knew would articulate this well, partly to be wise a$$ but also, for good info. I think the point about size and infrequent repaints (unless your restoring) are very good points.  I agree with every other color but continue to be mystified on Green, certsin Model Js come to mind along with Packards, but I agree it is also marque, model, body style specific whether we are talking Classics or otherwise.

 

31-Duesenberg_J434-DV-13-AI_a09-800.jpg.5ab8926ed71dc0871c8711f1cd69a0c9.jpg

 

Here is a Duesemberg with a Packard 640/645, 740/745 or maybe 840/845 Roadster body on it from near new and when I first saw it the color was Green and I believe tu-tone (and car was a legend in being nicknamed the Green Hornet, Green Dragon, or something like that) to then have it restored and you would have thought people were being slaughtered in the streets as to the reaction to its restoration in Black - and then the car was re-restored in this Dark Green. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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22 minutes ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

AJ or John, besides the preference for bw, is the Chrysler fitted with oversize tires, they seem to look pretty big in there..

 

The Auburn is bangin' with either configuration!

I am guessing they have like a 7:50 x 18 installed and a 7:00 x 18 would probably do it. 

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Sidenote:  This is a really nice car and at a really nice price !

 

Also, has an aftermarket downdraft manifold (made at varous times from late 1960's to current) and that is super nice as to driveability. 

 

Needs a set of sidemount tire mirrors, a really great luggage trunk (which I am thinking they may have one) and needs some interior work in rear quarters, but not shameful as is.

 

https://www.vaultcars.com/1930-lincoln-judkins-berline

 

IMG_7041.jpg.a82941f1e8fc2963263456247c4c7f93.jpg

 

IMG_7088.jpg.ffc063b9371abf2a26245c9a5864e088.jpg

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57 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Sidenote:  This is a really nice car and at a really nice price !

 

Also, has an aftermarket downdraft manifold (made at varous times from late 1960's to current) and that is super nice as to driveability. 

 

Needs a set of sidemount tire mirrors, a really great luggage trunk (which I am thinking they may have one) and needs some interior work in rear quarters, but not shameful as is.

 

https://www.vaultcars.com/1930-lincoln-judkins-berline

 

IMG_7041.jpg.a82941f1e8fc2963263456247c4c7f93.jpg

 

IMG_7088.jpg.ffc063b9371abf2a26245c9a5864e088.jpg

 

What's the price on that Lincoln? The Vault's website is such a mess.

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33 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

What's the price on that Lincoln? The Vault's website is such a mess.

Yeah, not intuitive but its listed on the opening pic.  $37k.  Makes me think about the 30 Lincoln "coupe", looked more like a victoria, I should have bought from my local friend Ray a few years back.  Factory aluminum body, it went to Steve Pughs who I hope is using it, it was not too far from roadworthy.  I could have swapped my Packard 120 and a few sheckles.  Quality cars, but not as fancy inside as some contemporaries like Cadillac, Chrysler or Packard.

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19 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Green cars are the near kiss of death, matched to Tan/Brown/Orange, White, resale red on certain things, Hang Around Brown, Old Man Gold,  and there are a few other rules, plus Grey cars do not win at Concours events (albeit two have via Pebble Beach Concours, but they were extraordinary to begin with). And while some people like them, most do not and as a result you really cut into the market share.   I am not saying do not buy cars in these color - you can get a deal and a great car (though also realize you have the same problem going in as going out), but what I am saying is do not stand in line to hurt yourself financially when restoring/choosing paint colors - and to keep in mind CCCA cars are large and most of the time people never repaint them.   On the flip side of the coin, I will also preach restoring things in their original colors (for the most part) - especially custom built and famous cars that have a lineage. 

 

Someday I will have my '35 Packard repainted the original beige, away from its current 1970s silver and black.  It might be the resale kiss of death, but then I hope to never have to sell it!  :)

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15 minutes ago, 1935Packard said:

 

Someday I will have my '35 Packard repainted the original beige, away from its current 1970s silver and black.  It might be the resale kiss of death, but then I hope to never have to sell it!  :)


 

You’re going to need approval from your collection manager, and I doubt he will approve.

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It's really all about shades, imo.  The Havanna Beige on oue Packard got tons of compliments.  It was original to the car, and darker than the typical "70s cream beige" often coupled with chocolate brown and orange.  Packard did this color or very close up and back for a few years.  Kind of like dark green vs. Bright green.  

 

Soft blue and the silver Orin mentions are also popular period colors, the 70s being the period! 😁

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Not to take this discussion away from color, because i like hearing other opinions on color, but as I look at older cars with Babbitt bearings, what do I need to know about owning a car with them. If the engine runs well and It doesn’t need to come apart, don’t worry about it?  I know just enough to be dangerous. I have this mental image of finding some mythical character, eccentric knome, living alone in the woods with a chalaise or crucible from an English castle melting metal to be poured into my engine. 
 

any sane feedback on babbitt bearings?

 

 

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I remember one section in the original "The Happening" with Faye Dunnaway where they were talking about getaway cars and (I guarantee nothing from memory) that you wanted a utility tan four door because no-one notices them. In 1970 GM had a popular color I always called "flesh". Tastes change. Will probably never own another black car (Never Say Never).

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18 minutes ago, John Bloom said:

If the engine runs well and It doesn’t need to come apart, don’t worry about it?....any sane feedback on babbitt bearings?

In case you did not know, early car insert bearings were also babbit fused to thick copper inserts, even on the rods.

 

another thing about older replacement bearings not well known, is that some were resizable, meaning they could be machined to a different ID because those marked as such, had extra thick babbit in the bearing shell.

 

I resized some used .010 main bearings on my 55 Olds engine back to STD, and that engine is in my primary year round car...no issues. 

 

As far as wondering if the old babbit is still good on a good sounding old engine?  That's impossible to know in random cases.  I pulled apart a 1930 Mopar 6 many years ago that sounded perfect, but one bearing had a cracked/loose section of babbit and due to the interlocking shape of the cracked piece, stayed locked in proper position. 

 

A very long dormant engine, meaning decades; the oil drains completely from the bearing surfaces on the crank, and if conditions are right, rust can form on the crank and will definitely chew up the formerly good bearing material.  That is what happened to my Olds engine.  The only way I found it, was that after yard testing/running it, I pulled the engine for painting and decided to change the rear main seal.  As soon as I took the rear main cap off to do the seal, I saw the rust pits on the crank.  Also there was a fresh pile of ultra fine bearing material  right under the oil pick up screen on the pump. I had a perfect STD crank and put that in, then that is why I resized the existing .010 under bearings to match the new crank.

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"resized some used .010 main bearings on my 55 Olds engine back to STD" , understand filing the ends to lower clearance but why does that not make it loose in the journal. Did you also file the caps ?

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4 hours ago, John Bloom said:

Not to take this discussion away from color, because i like hearing other opinions on color, but as I look at older cars with Babbitt bearings, what do I need to know about owning a car with them. If the engine runs well and It doesn’t need to come apart, don’t worry about it?  I know just enough to be dangerous. I have this mental image of finding some mythical character, eccentric knome, living alone in the woods with a chalaise or crucible from an English castle melting metal to be poured into my engine. 
 

any sane feedback on babbitt bearings?

 

 

Usually fine - I rarely have had to redo mains, but have done plenty of rod bearings (and if possible, I machine for inserts).  My theory is plan for the worst and hope for the best (aka, I usually set aside 10K to 50K for oops regarding any purchase).  By the way, I can tell you the story of a 30K Auburn engine rebuild that threw a rod into the wrong place about 2 minutes into start up. 

 

Funny story regarding oops - I have tried to buy about 4 cars over the past month.  All the people have been - come and see it and I have been send me photos and a better description so we can have a decent conversation to even start with - to receive that is not how it works.  There is an Tan/Brown/Orange 31/32 Auburn on one of the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Facebook pages and I thanked the fellow for his time today (after a choice insult that I should have read him the riot act for - what an ASS), but apparently 6 photos are enough to buy a car and ....  Anyway, for me to buy a non-runner (especially a series of Auburn know for cracks in the block and .... - and which may or may not need a total engine rebuild), you had better sell me on the rest of it.  I guess there is the uninformed local guy who will see Gold, but the turnip truck only tips over so often, but .... 

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Dunno about anyone else but in recent years have suddenly had interesting cars (usually with 5 speed manuals) that run and drive appear for essentially pocket change e.g a few Benajamins (and mostly spent time/money on putting back to stock). Most recent was completed in August but have noticed used cars have mostly disappeared now. Try to stick to ones I have spares for but doesn't always work out.

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On 10/13/2020 at 4:51 PM, padgett said:

Dunno about anyone else but in recent years have suddenly had interesting cars (usually with 5 speed manuals) that run and drive appear for essentially pocket change e.g a few Benajamins (and mostly spent time/money on putting back to stock). Most recent was completed in August but have noticed used cars have mostly disappeared now. Try to stick to ones I have spares for but doesn't always work out.

 

You purchased a CCCA car for a few hundred dollars in recent years?  Really?  I don't recall seeing a CCCA car on a used car lot, you are a lucky guy

Edited by John348 (see edit history)
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On 10/13/2020 at 6:43 AM, 1935Packard said:

 

Someday I will have my '35 Packard repainted the original beige, away from its current 1970s silver and black.  It might be the resale kiss of death, but then I hope to never have to sell it!  :)

One of their beige colors is fine (see below), but several others not so much - and always helps when done to or near 100 point.   Personally, I am a fan of Silver/Black/Red.

93665889_817654295394320_3215131901249454080_o.jpg.34d6c61e238f113df0e88aadf0ec05c2.jpg

 

It took me about a day to start adding the Silver and Red.

247491.thumb.jpg.2e8ebf104306c25dae176dfb9cdceace.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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