Bohman and Schwartz conversion

[1950panhead]

Bohman and Schwartz had a shop in Passadena California and purchased some of Murphey's equipment and hired some Murphey's employees when Murphey closed in 1932.

There is a 31 Caddy roadster on ebay that Bohman and Schwartz modified.

Anyone smart enough to determine what work Bohman and Schwartz did ?

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/b/bohman_schwartz/bohman_schwartz.htm

 

[Guest]

Zero.🙄

[60FlatTop]

Removed the limo body and brought a blacksmith up from Tijuana to roll the tail?

[John_Mereness]

What is left of the factory records for Bohman & Schwartz are held be Randy Ema - he owns a restoration shop in Los Angeles area.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, Penske PC-7 said:

Zero.🙄

 

I think you might be over estimating.

[edinmass]

Bohman & Schwartz was a small and short lived shop.......

 

The above car was restyled by Barfman & Shitz.................

Edited May 6, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Removed the limo body and brought a blacksmith up from Tijuana to roll the tail?

 

Ok, this is not politically correct............

 

Design by Hellen Keller..........

 

Body by Mrs. Curtis fifth grade metal shop tin knockers club.

 

Roof, top irons, and hardware by The house of Shoddy.

[58L-Y8]

Typical of the "hey, let turn this rough sedan, coupe, whaterver into a snazzy roadster and cash in!"  The telltales are always the surface development in specific areas: the cowl which were handled very differently on roadsters and phaetons versus closed styles.   And the rear panels which are dead flat i.e. no lofting or gentle curvature which was the standard practice of professional coachbuilders.  The quick-buck customizers don't have and/or aren't skilled in the use of the English wheel and panel-beating tools and its shows.   I'm sure that Chris Bohman and Maurice Schwartz would take great issue with having this body 'credited' to them!

 

Steve

[1950panhead]

The above car was restyled by Barfman & Shitz

I imagine Barfman & Shitz coach work is very desirable.

 

I'm sure that Chris Bohman and Maurice Schwartz would take great issue with having this body 'credited' to them!

It looked strange to me, I wanted the experts to weigh in, thank you.

 

Typical of the "hey, let turn this rough sedan, coupe, what ever into a snazzy roadster and cash in!" 

If I wanted to convert a 31 Caddy sedan to a roadster who do I call ?
Who can make an exact 31 Caddy roadster body today ?

[edinmass]

Making a correct body is easy, getting someone to wright the check is hard.

[Gunsmoke]

Man there is a tough audience on AACA lately, I would love to own that car, the "flatback" doesn't bother me the least. Not every styling exercise ever created knocked people's socks off, could I mention the Edsel (all years), '59/60 Chevs, early 60's MOPARS, Packardbakers, Mustang II's, etc. Rebody on a Sedan chassis as EDINMASS says would not be cheap in any era. 

[Matt Harwood]

Something I learned as a kid when looking at cars is that if it looks right, it probably is right. And if it looks wrong, well, it isn't right. I can't really define "right" and "wrong" but most of you know exactly what I mean. You know how you can always spot a Shay Model A or any other kind of ersatz classic from a hundred yards away? They're not necessarily ugly (although many really are); they're just "wrong" somehow and your eye picks up on it. 

 

The only tool they had for designing cars was their eye--no aerodynamic wind tunnel testing, no Cd target to hit, no crash standards to maintain. Those guys sketched and massaged it until it looked "right" to the eye and then they built it. Nobody in-period would have built something that looks as "wrong" as that roadster. I'm not saying it's awful and can't be enjoyed today, but it's a car that will always stand out the way a wrong note during a piano concerto stands out--not necessarily a deal-killer, but noticeable and unacceptable at a certain level. 

Unfortunately, that level is well below $100,000. 

 

Of course, the general public, which probably includes 98% of the universe, will never see or understand the difference. But to those who do know, it's a grain of sand in their eye that never comes out.

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

Man there is a tough audience on AACA lately, I would love to own that car, the "flatback" doesn't bother me the least. Not every styling exercise ever created knocked people's socks off, could I mention the Edsel (all years), '59/60 Chevs, early 60's MOPARS, Packardbakers, Mustang II's, etc. Rebody on a Sedan chassis as EDINMASS says would not be cheap in any era. 

 

I agree that the general reaction is pretty harsh.   I think if a new member showed up with the car and didn't try the B&S reference there would be a 100% different reaction.   The issue here is the attribution to a known coachbuilder when that is highly doubtful.  

 

Assuming price was appropriate,  somebody could enjoy this car and no harm no foul.   

[edinmass]

I don't mind the rebody, what does bother me is the "story". Ok, it's a cut up closed car, done with with only a bear minimum of skill that looks ok to the non learned. I think if you actually made a sign with a few photos and how you did it, the car would get more looks on a show field or cruise night than it does when you put the BS or should I say B & S story on it.

Edited May 6, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Matt and Al , you both state this perfectly , well said.

Pre WWII era during the golden era of body designers and builders  , as Matt states,  this was all design work done by eye. All calculations done on a slide rule , most curves drawn 99% of the time using a set of french curves ( made of cut out pieces of wood, not the female form they were named after!!!!!!!) . Genuine imagination and creativity at work; today mostly regulated to pressing  a button(s)  for electronic programs to do the math work.

Carl Doman was one of the chief engineers for the Franklin Motor Car Company along with Ed Marks. When Carl would attend the Franklin Club annual meet in Syracuse , NY every summer and they had a luncheon you had to pay for as an individual that was not part of the club meal package deal for the week it was not unusual to see Carl Doman figuring out the tip to add or the tax on the meal on a  slide rule he carried in his pocket!   More memories of great and grand automotive people "of the era" I got to know 50-55 years ago. I had a friend recently ask me 'how do you recall in detail all the things that happened that guys that designed and built cars in the re WWII era told you 50+ years ago?" I don't have an answer, I guess hearing this history from the people that were there doing it made such an impression I just thought - I have to remember this - and i do. It is  nice to share it with people here on the forum and in my stories I write for the publications, my way of honoring some automotive people that perhaps would otherwise not be remembered at all. 

WG

Edited May 6, 2019 by Walt G
mispelled word (see edit history)

[PFitz]

Drawings on paper are one thing. Those French curve drawn shapes  had to be transferred to the full-size layout of wood framing and sheet metal forming.  That's where you enlightened me to , "Coach Builder's curves".

 

Schooled as a draftsman, I  knew about putting design shapes on paper using plotting with measurements and French curves, but until you explained what coach builder's curves were, transferring that to full size car parts was a much different matter.

 

The set of coach builders curves I made based on your info came in very handy for all the body woodworking over the years.  Lots faster for layout work than using a, "slip-stick".

 

Paul

Edited May 6, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

I've often wondered how the woodworkers and panel beaters worked in a custom body shop back in the 1920's & 1930's. wheeling out panels seams easier than making the wood frame. I've never seen photos of the process mid way through a build. Bob 

Edited May 6, 2019 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[PFitz]

Bob,

Every curve on the drawings can be divided up into sections of a specific radius and scaled up to full size using the coach builders curves to layout cut lines of the wood framing, and then also used  to check the curvatures of the sheet metal as it's being wheeled to match that area of the car.

 

On a drawing it's easy to draw the curves using  compass set to various radius that give the curves needed. For compound curves they are then blended using French curves in the final drawing.   But, with  coach builders curves they don't use a radius measurement because many of the radiuses for curves used   in car design are way to long. Instead they use the  amount of curvature (or "rise") that  is measured off a straight line  that is always standard of four feet long. That's what Walt G, with his extensive coach builder's library,  found out for me when I was repairing the woodwork in his 31 custom Derham Sportsman.   

 

Example: Low crowns (curves) like many Sedan wooden roof bows are 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch curvature - often up to 1 inch or more toward the rear.. That's  the maximum amount of curvature off that four foot straight line I mentioned.  Pictures below show  my  set of curves and two sections of a 29 sedan roof. The 1 inch is over the rear seat area,  the other is getting ready to replace rotted wood in the windshield header bow.  

 

High crowns have a shorter radius and therefore more curvature in four feet. For those I don't need to layout a four foot length so I used shorter pieces to save materials when making the set.

 

But, unlike a drawing where you can use a compass to draw the curves,  the radius for roof bows is over 40 feet long. So that's why they use that standard of curvature in four feet of length. The set of coach builder's curves  I made starts out at 1/4 inch curvature and goes  in 1/8 inch increments to 2 inch. Then to 4 inch in 1/4 inch increments for  higher crown areas such as fenders and cowls.

 

Paul

Edited May 7, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

Thank you PFitz, great explanation and the photos are a big help. Bob 

[edinmass]

Back in the 80’s I sat down with a Pierce  Arrow factory employee of seven years. We covered many topics, but most interesting was the building of the bodies. He said the wood guys were mostly Italian craftsmen, working in pairs. They would often work to together for years. They started at the front end worked to the back, speaking little, moving fast, and much of it was on the fly craftsmanship. The skinners were also the same type of operation. He explained how they used lead, and could place most of it on a car in just minutes. He vividly recalled watching them pour led from a ladle down the door edge of a car with a wide gap. Using the lead to extend the door lip almost 3/8 of an inch in places. He said they did it so fast you couldn’t figure out what was going on or the technique they used to feather it.......all while smoking cigarettes or chewing tobacco. They didn’t like visitors, and were fond of throwing things at people who interrupted their work. They were a hard drinking, hard smoking, and hard working bunch of men who enjoyed going to the bar or boxing matches. The greatest impression he left me with was how they pounded out a car like modern framers would frame a house. Look at the plans, and just do it. Measurements were done mostly by eye, it’s a shame there is no film of them for us to watch today.

Edited May 7, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[motoringicons]

I have seen this Cadillac. It looks worse in person.

[Walt G]

Paul, thank you for sharing your information, observations and especially the images as it makes things clearer for many people to get a true picture about what is now the discussion beyond the 1931 Cadillac that started this whole topic. For those of you that have not owned or worked on a pre war car this is a good "primer" of what exactly went into building these bodies once they left the drawing table. Ed your comments as well, as to what you learned from former P-A employees is most enlightening also. All the people that created these cars 80+ years ago are now gone, to hear their information first hand and be able to place it here for others to appreciate and understand is the absolute best, well at least I think so. It shows the craftsmanship and skill  that went into the creation of the cars we now cherish, and make us feel so good to to ride down the road in, be it as the driver or a passenger - It's all good. Thanks so much to AACA for providing us the space to view our thoughts and what we have learned.

[edinmass]

1 hour ago, motoringicons said:

I have seen this Cadillac. It looks worse in person.

 

I do not believe that is possible! 

[auburnseeker]

It's a shame besides proportions that they didn't atleast continue the belit line to the back of the car.  Abruptly ending it at the back of the door,  so it doesn't continue on to the back of the body shouts out home made.   I've seen better boat tail bodies that they atleast tried to flow the lines throughout. 

[1937hd45]

I've always like the looks of this old sedan. Bob 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Body design aside, I think what makes this poor Cadillac look all that much worse is it's tail-dragging stance. If you look at the space between fender bead and the front tire and then compare it to the much diminished clearance over the rear, you'll see an effect that amplifies the weak deck height considerably. When you consider all of the large, heavy and vertical elements of the front end, the rear doesn't just look too low, it looks like it's off of another car all together. That, and it's blood red. There are lots of attractive shades of red, but this one is just wrong. I've seen other cars with dropped deck heights and while it's not a look that I favor, I'll bet that tinkering with the rear height, losing the white walls (probably) and a color change to just about anything else, and you'd see a different car.

 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[ron hausmann]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 6:12 PM, 1950panhead said:

 

I imagine Barfman & Shitz coach work is very desirable.

 

 

It looked strange to me, I wanted the experts to weigh in, thank you.

 

 

If I wanted to convert a 31 Caddy sedan to a roadster who do I call ?
Who can make an exact 31 Caddy roadster body today ?

 

1950 panhead,

One of the best, if not THE BEST English Wheel / Classic Sheet Metal artists in the USA is Mike Kleeves now in Carolina. His company name is "Automobile Metal Shaping". High end classic, antique, and sports car folks are aware of him. He did one Kissel car for me and his work was magnificent !!! He's not cheap but you certainly get what you pay for !!! I was at his shop in Michigan before he moved to Carolina, and watched his crew working on big Lincolns, Lagondas, and several great sports cars - - all metal artistry .

On balance, for a special car, I would heartily recommend him. i'll use him again myself.

My opinion. Ron Hausmann P.E.

[Guest]

One of the better known body builders of our time was Marcel De Ley. Here is a link to an article about him: https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2018/06/13/master-metalshaper-marcel-de-ley-dies-at-age-89/

 

Some 1930 and 1931 V16 Cadillac sedans were converted to roadsters or convertible coupes over the years by using the open body from a 1930 V8 car. Due to wheelbase differences, a 1931 V8 open car wouldn't work - a 1930 model donor car was needed.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Guest (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I think if the car in the topic had been presented as a Judkins body no one would have given it a second thought.

 

The Bohman and Schwartz story shifts one's thinking to the mid-1930's so, in that vein, it would be a five year old car at the time of conversion. Not a good time, used cars were frowned upon by the manufacturer and seen as competition to new products in a reviving economy. A friend of mine ran a Plymouth/DeSoto dealership at that time. He told me about "the factory man" who ran a circuit to damage trade ins. He used a sledge hammer to smash the radiator and crack the block. That continued until the late '30's. Then it was mostly the work of Alfred P. Sloan and Harley Earle whom campaigned for dealers to develop the used car market as a business component. Thinking about it, a 1930 or '31 would not have had much of a chance unless it was owner commissioned. Sentiment would have driven the rework as the value would be very low. That could be a 1940's or even '50's job. That's 70 years ago and stories get foggy.

I have a 60 degree V12 that is at the bottom of its value. It has a platform chassis and I have been known to cut roofs off cars in the past. I can empathize.

 

This Caddy is not a mainstream car and not that well known. I could see buying it and making up a more convincing Judkins body story. In a summer or two the guy in the fedora would stand back and say "Yes, I can see that telltale body line they used."