1965 Riviera - dual master cylinder upgrade...

[moran75]

Hi all

 

I want to install a dual master cylinder on my 65 - i hear that installing one from a 67 is easiest method. Does anyone have any experience and tips?

 

Vacuum power unit is a Bendix...

 

All the best

 

Kev

 

 

[Guest Kaber]

Pretty straightforward, get a Bendix M/C for a 67 w/ drum brakes. Plumb the front cup to the front brakes and the rear to the rear. No need for prop valve since 4 wheel drum. I did it an upgraded to all new lines and hoses at the same time. You brake lamp switch is already on the pedal so you are good to go. Kaber 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Kaber (see edit history)

[Chefcg1]

Same question, but I’m pretty sure my booster is bad as well. Symptoms of bad idle and missing in gear, hard peddle. I know my drums are good, but I’m trying to decide if the best route is to do a disc brake upgrade in the front and going with a completely new booster/master cylinder upgrade like the one POL sells and either doing the scarbird or POL front disc brake kit? My car is more of a rat rod and not trying to be original. Was wondering if anyone had experience with the POL kit in the links below?

 

https://www.performanceonline.com/1966-69-Buick-Riviera-Front-Disc-Brake-Conversion-Kit-WBKS63651/

 

https://www.performanceonline.com/1963-69-Buick-Riviera-Power-Brake-Booster-Kit/

 

thanks!

[jsgun]

For what it's worth, my Riv has those same symptoms, and it turned out to be a bad vacuum leak for the line into the booster. I have a ford that when you press the brakes, the engine speeds up. Found out that's a vacuum leak in the booster.

[RivNut]

15 minutes ago, Chefcg1 said:

Same question, but I’m pretty sure my booster is bad as well. Symptoms of bad idle and missing in gear, hard peddle. I know my drums are good, but I’m trying to decide if the best route is to do a disc brake upgrade in the front and going with a completely new booster/master cylinder upgrade like the one POL sells and either doing the scarbird or POL front disc brake kit? My car is more of a rat rod and not trying to be original. Was wondering if anyone had experience with the POL kit in the links below?

 

https://www.performanceonline.com/1966-69-Buick-Riviera-Front-Disc-Brake-Conversion-Kit-WBKS63651/

 

https://www.performanceonline.com/1963-69-Buick-Riviera-Power-Brake-Booster-Kit/

 

thanks!

No experience with the POL kit you referenced but the nice thing about the Scarebird adapter is that if you have problems with pads, rotors, calipers, hoses, etc., the replacement parts are as close as your local jobber, not some speciality shop in some faraway place that will take days to get you your part.  All the while you're sitting and waiting.

[steelman]

You don't have to do the disc conversion to do the master cylinder conversion, even with this system. I used what may be this same booster. Mine came from Master Power Brakes, but looks the same. Used the original drums and braking is a ton better than stock. I was considering a disc conversion at the time, but that moved down the to-do list when I installed this system.

 

[slosteve]

Looks like an early 'Vette master cyl., Steve. I have one on my '56 F-100.

 

Steve

[Chefcg1]

Do you recall which setup you purchased? I don’t see a Riviera option on masterpowerbrakes.com?

[Chefcg1]

My guess is the POL kit is essentially a scarbird kit with all the parts in one shipment.i doubt they have reinvented the idea , but rather put their package together as a one stop shop. What appeals to me with the POL kit is powder coated calipers and slotted disc option without me having to go out of my way and time to do the same. Price seems reasonable compared to me shopping for the new parts at the local parts store. Plus considering my Riviera is not going to be original, but rather a rat rod style car. My car is almost perfect inside and out and what remains is braking and the engine running reliably (which I believe to be a brake booster issue) and figuring out some wiring I missed withe AC system when I replaced the heater core last winter. 3 herniated disks, home improvements and 80hr work week have slowed me down this year not to mention my C7 corvette project that is now done, so I’m determined to gett the Rivera done this winter!

Edited October 9, 2017 by Chefcg1 (see edit history)

[steelman]

31 minutes ago, Chefcg1 said:

Do you recall which setup you purchased? I don’t see a Riviera option on masterpowerbrakes.com?

I do not. When I had mine done, there was no "kit". From anybody. So, mine was built from scratch. That was in 08 or 09. I had to send them the old booster and pedal assembly, along with a few measurements they needed of the engine compartment and firewall. Took six weeks, but when I got it back, it fit like a glove. But as it was a one off, it was twice the price of the POL kit. I have not had a reason to go back to Master Power Brake and see if they developed a "kit" from what they did for my car. But I believe SloSteve is right, this is a Corvette booster.

[ronnie27]

Strongly recommend you replace your brake lines also. Mine corroded inside the frame going to rear brakes. Driving up to my shop, stepped on the brakes with single style master cylinder, line burst when I was about 4 or 5 Ft from the wall, did $3500 damage to car. Dual master, SS lines now.

[jimtash]

My '63 came with a dual MC from what appears to be a '67 Chevy II with all drum brakes. I posted a pic of what it looks like. ETA that's how I purchased it. Previous owners installed it along with new lines. Works fine.

 

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by jimtash (see edit history)

[Seafoam65]

                     Just so everyone is aware........dual master cylinders can totally fail suddenly and the pedal can go straight to the floor

and you have no brakes at all......I've seen this happen several times, once on my own car. One second I had brakes, the next time I stepped

on the pedal I had nothing at all and almost went through a barn wall. Having a dual master cylinder is no fail safe guarantee that this won't happen.

It all depends on the nature of the internal failure.

[jimtash]

17 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

                     Just so everyone is aware........dual master cylinders can totally fail suddenly and the pedal can go straight to the floor

and you have no brakes at all......I've seen this happen several times, once on my own car. One second I had brakes, the next time I stepped

on the pedal I had nothing at all and almost went through a barn wall. Having a dual master cylinder is no fail safe guarantee that this won't happen.

It all depends on the nature of the internal failure.

 

Very true. My car is sitting in storage right now because one of the rear wheel cylinders is leaking and it has no brakes whatsoever. Thankfully the parking brakes still work because it was the only thing that stopped the car. The rear cavity in the master cylinder is empty while the front is still full BTW. My plan is the cap the rear outlet at the MC so the front brakes will have pressure and allow the car to be moved safely.

Edited November 21, 2017 by jimtash (see edit history)

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People:  A dual master? Sure......if you also install a fresh brake line kit too. Don't forget the EMERGENCY BRAKE.

 

It's gotta work correctly and,...............,...........THE DRIVER MUST BE COMFORTABLE with the adjustment of the pedal.  Mitch

 

  

[Turbinator]

On 11/20/2017 at 12:34 PM, Seafoam65 said:

                     Just so everyone is aware........dual master cylinders can totally fail suddenly and the pedal can go straight to the floor

and you have no brakes at all......I've seen this happen several times, once on my own car. One second I had brakes, the next time I stepped

on the pedal I had nothing at all and almost went through a barn wall. Having a dual master cylinder is no fail safe guarantee that this won't happen.

It all depends on the nature of the internal failure.

Mr. Seafoam, your chain is as strong as your weakest link. I went ahead and put in a new dual master brake cylinder. 2hile I was doing the upgrade I put on all new wheel cylinders, ALL new brake lines including the metal line that runs through the “X” to the back brakes. New brake shoes were put on as well. I’m pretty sure I’m ok with the 63’s braking system. Oh,had the vacuum booster rebuilt by the guys on the West Coast...can’t remember the names of the gents.

[RivNut]

Probably Booster Dewey in Portland, OR.

[Turbinator]

On 3/28/2018 at 9:00 AM, RivNut said:

Probably Booster Dewey in Portland, OR.

 

On 3/28/2018 at 9:00 AM, RivNut said:

Probably Booster Dewey in Portland, OR.

Yes, Booster Dewey rebuilt my vacuum brake booster for reasonable fee.

Red Riviera Bob

[Garysriv]

On 7/15/2017 at 11:17 PM, Kaber said:

Pretty straightforward, get a Bendix M/C for a 67 w/ drum brakes. Plumb the front cup to the front brakes and the rear to the rear. No need for prop valve since 4 wheel drum. I did it an upgraded to all new lines and hoses at the same time. You brake lamp switch is already on the pedal so you are good to go. Kaber 

I would like to follow this upgrade, but don't you also need a 67 distribution block also?  The 65 only has one input from the master and 3 outputs (2 front, 1 rear).  Did you just source a 67 dist block, and does it bolt to the frame the same way?

Edited May 20, 2018 by Garysriv (see edit history)

[1965rivgs]

Hi Gary,

  You can use the original junction block. Disconnect and plug the port which feeds the rear brakes. Plumb the new rear master cyl output directly to the rear brake line via a union. Plumb the front master cyl output to the same port on the junction block which the original master cyl was plumbed to.

  Make sure you use a plug with the correct hydraulic thread and not a pipe thread plug.

  Tom

[Garysriv]

12 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Hi Gary,

  You can use the original junction block. Disconnect and plug the port which feeds the rear brakes. Plumb the new rear master cyl output directly to the rear brake line via a union. Plumb the front master cyl output to the same port on the junction block which the original master cyl was plumbed to.

  Make sure you use a plug with the correct hydraulic thread and not a pipe thread plug.

  Tom

Ahhh, makes sense, I over thought it!  Thanks Tom!

[BoLo]

On 10/9/2017 at 1:03 PM, steelman said:

You don't have to do the disc conversion to do the master cylinder conversion, even with this system. I used what may be this same booster. Mine came from Master Power Brakes, but looks the same. Used the original drums and braking is a ton better than stock. I was considering a disc conversion at the time, but that moved down the to-do list when I installed this system.

 

Hey I have a 66 rivi just bought the dual what do I need for the install this is what I have  a friend told me I will need another style of block  than what purchased 

[BoLo]

On 10/9/2017 at 1:03 PM, steelman said:

You don't have to do the disc conversion to do the master cylinder conversion, even with this system. I used what may be this same booster. Mine came from Master Power Brakes, but looks the same. Used the original drums and braking is a ton better than stock. I was considering a disc conversion at the time, but that moved down the to-do list when I installed this system.

 

Hey I have a 66 rivi just bought the dual what do I need for the install this is what I have  a friend told me I will need another style of block  than what purchased 

 

 

this the block I purchased 

[steelman]

Why did you buy the residual pressure valves? I would plumb without these first, then add if needed, but you should not need these with drum brakes.

[EmTee]

If using the drum-brake master cylinder for a '67, the residual pressure check valves are part of the master cylinder.

[60FlatTop]

On cars that have been converted to a dual system what is the most common failure experienced that the conversion has prevented damage or an accident from?

[EmTee]

Living in the Northeast, the only value I have experienced from the dual-circuit brake system is that rust-through of a steel brake line doesn't cause complete loss of the service brakes.  That said, a failure of one circuit still renders the system about 30 ~ 40% effective.  Does anyone on this forum drive their classic car through 'salt season' and run crusty brake lines until they fail?  I'll say probably not...

[gungeey]

On 2/3/2023 at 9:04 AM, 60FlatTop said:

On cars that have been converted to a dual system what is the most common failure experienced that the conversion has prevented damage or an accident from?

 

Sounds like a Jeopardy game for $500, Alex 🤣

 

Good question and don't know how to get an answer. I do acknowledge when I turn the key in a given car whether it has a single master or ABS and Lane Assist and drive accordingly. I tend to think those with an "upgraded" dual MC conversion drive with a perceived heightened sense of safety. They might A) mistakedly drive more boldly, believing their brake system is more modernized, or  B) drive more cautiously.

 

As undoubtedly has been stated many times over the years, routine maintenance will give trouble free driving. And stopping. If I wasn't born poor this hobby would be too expensive for my taste. Just can't fathom paying someone to look under my wheel cylinder cups or to flush brake lines.

[Seafoam65]

If you have a working emergency brake you can stop the car with any sort

of hydraulic failure.......takes two seconds to apply it if the pedal goes to the floor, so

in my opinion, the dual master cylinder doesn't make the car any safer, but does give

some people a false sense of security.

 

[EmTee]

36 minutes ago, Seafoam65 said:

If you have a working emergency brake you can stop the car with any sort

of hydraulic failure.......

I did just that when the line on my '56 Chevy popped when I was in high school.  Took it easy and used the parking brake (hand  operated) to get safely home. 

[RivNut]

Watch the World Rally Cup drivers use their hand brakes sometime.  😁

[kegart]

When you have brake line failure it doesn't matter if you have a single or dual master cylinder. Your underwear will look the same. 

Kevin 

[telriv]

No brakes is as bad as having NO steering.

Drove a vehicle someone had swapped in a rack & pinion set-up & forgot to tighten the universal joint set screws on two universal joints.

 

Tom T.

[atencioee]

Hello fellow Rivi owners, I've been considering converting from the single MC (pictured) to a dual on my 64 Riviera (drum/drum). I've heard a dual is much safer and that it isn't too difficult to convert. However, after researching the forum, I find myself a little confused the experiences some have had!! It seems some have had complications, and some have mentioned a dual is no safer than a single.

So, my first question, what is it...are they indeed safer? Or just equally safe?

If safer, if anyone has had the experience of making a pain-free conversion, any recommendations? Pointers? Part #s or any ebay links (they have a few available for the 67 and 70 Rivis) you know of that would be good for my 64? 

[XframeFX]

13 hours ago, atencioee said:

I've heard a dual is much safer and that it isn't too difficult to convert.

Absolutely it's safer. But justifying a conversion depends how recent your brakes are. Most notably the hydraulic system of course.

Even with a dual circuit system, loss of a circuit will be startling on 1st application of the brakes. Less responsive and pedal sinking lower. So, hopefully no nearby obstacles. Upon realization, the Riviera can than be limped home.

Single circuit hydraulic failure will result in total loss of brakes. If staying with this system, make sure your E-Brakes work. Try it out on a residential street.

If your 3 hoses, fluid, wheel cylinders and master cylinder are recent, you should be good. If you can't remember when the last flush was done, bleed the brakes with fresh fluid.

Also check your power booster if it holds vacuum. You should have at least 2 applications of power assist after shutting down the engine. Try it again after the engine has been off for a better part of the day. If no assist, the check valve or power booster need attention.

If you need to address any or all of these, then it would be a good idea to convert to a dual system.

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by XframeFX (see edit history)