Why do you think NASCAR has declined?

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Quote Bernie, "And that image of a slave ship dropping anchor on the coast of Africa, then the Captain and crew hunting through the jungle don't sound quite right. I kind of think some of the neighbors has caught them already. You think?" Bernie, you don't know your history as well as I do. That's exactly what the English did. They tore apart families brutally, taking only the slaves who would bring the highest price. Even after the English finally abolished slavery in England, they continued to allow their people to trade in slaves. It was big money. The same people that brought us Irish King Billy and Cromwell did a big profitable business in slavery. The captured slaves were shackled and stacked in disease filled holds like sardines. Deaths among the "inventory" was just a cost of business. Many of those same ships that brought slaves to the south returned to England with cotton and then brought impoverished and desperate Irish back to New Orleans. Some of my people came in that way. Remember, Bernie, of the one and a half million Irish that had to leave their beloved homeland and travel on festering ships, fully one third of them perished on the way over.

Quote Bernie, "I gotta admit, the Confederate flag never reflected any kind of supremacy to me." Bernie, when we Irish landed in New York and Boston, the military was there to enlist us immediately (my ancestors included) to go fight and die against those who proudly flew that repulsive flag. You can be certain that I'm not the only person who sees displaying it as an act of defiance. The sailor below may be Dutch or Portuguese, but statistically he's far more likely to be English. He's not "freeing" slave. He's just preparing the slave for sale near the end of his journey.

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Do you have a reference for your claim that 1/3 of the Irish who boarded ships died before they got here? Hyperbole maybe?

[vermontboy]

" You can be certain that I'm not the only person who sees displaying it as an act of defiance "

 

You might keep in mind that there are  probably Native Americans who have similar feelings about our stars and stripes.

[Guest]

Hudsy, I suppose one could put whatever spin they choose on the photo you've posted. Unless one of these people are an ancestor of yours or you have some untold knowledge of its circumstances, I see a white man cutting the shackles off a black man. A black man wearing trousers and a belt which leads me to believe that he would not have been newly arrived from Africa.

[Guest]

Well this is very interesting. When you click on Hudsy's slave picture it links directly to an explanation of where, when and what was happening. "British sailor frees slave 1907, middle east."

Those pesky facts just get in the way sometimes. 

[60FlatTop]

Gee, no one was offended about the biggest kid in the fourth grade comment?

I also remember quite a few of those southern guys getting medical discharges from the Army for bad backs. Must have been from sitting at those small desks in school.

 

Of all the social groups I have been exposed to, mankind appears to be the one who takes itself too seriously.

 

Any readers can enjoy this book:https://www.amazon.com/Rum-Social-Sociable-History-Spirit/dp/1560258918

 I loved it.

 

No history tonight, I am reading a book on plotting Cartesian coordinates in three planes just as a refresher.

[MCHinson]

At the risk of taking a topic that was originally off topic even further off topic, I actually followed the link for a photo that was posted earlier and found a very interesting article. Like most of everything in this discussion, it has nothing to do with antique cars but I found it both interesting and informative. If we are going to have a wide ranging non-automotive discussion, we should at least stick to the facts on what is being discussed: http://rarehistoricalphotos.com/slave-shackle-removed-british-sailor-1907/

[John_S_in_Penna]

Race cars from the 1950's to the present,

and the conditions and functions of racing,

constitute an off-topic or non-automotive discussion?

Not at all, and it has proven popular!

The Hornets' Nest Region has even addressed 

NASCAR personalities in their excellent monthly newsletter.

 

The less-than-25-year-old cars of today are

the eligible cars of tomorrow, just as the

less-than-25-year-old car fans of today are

the club officers of tomorrow.  Let's respect them!

Edited March 29, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[MCHinson]

On 3/26/2017 at 4:18 PM, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

I've been reading various opinions on the internet,

and wondered what any race fans think:

WHY HAS NASCAR DECLINED SO NOTICEABLY IN RECENT YEARS?

 

This is how you started this discussion... It has nothing to do with antique automobiles. Hence my description of it as being off topic. It was off topic, it is off topic, it has been reported to the modertors as being off topic, and the moderators have chosen to let it remain since it is an automotive related topic and, while off topic, it is possible to link this discussion to some on-topic posts, although most of the replies have not be on the topic of antique automobiles. Nobody accused it of not being an automotive topic. 

[Xander Wildeisen]

Interesting topic, I think like most things. You just need to get the youth back involved.

 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

5 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Well this is very interesting. When you click on Hudsy's slave picture it links directly to an explanation of where, when and what was happening. "British sailor frees slave 1907, middle east."

Those pesky facts just get in the way sometimes. 

I apologize for grabbing an easy picture off of Google. Of course there weren't any cameras aboard the ships and only a very few dockside, as well. I acted in haste. Perhaps you might find it of interest to simply Google "English slave trade".

[Hudsy Wudsy]

5 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Do you have a reference for your claim that 1/3 of the Irish who boarded ships died before they got here? Hyperbole maybe?

It's a figure that I've heard quoted all of my life, though in researching it, it appears to be overstated lore. In searching for specific figures the reality indicates that on some ships the death toll was "as much as thirty percent". A Google search of "Coffin Ships", will shed some light on the deplorable conditions the immigrants suffered.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I apologize to all if my zeal has caused my to stray or exaggerate.

[Guest Skyking]

3 hours ago, JusAuto said:

Hi, do you want to keep in touch with others while driving, and without concern about safety? 

This is our app link: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

It is a totally free call for drivers, and the coolest thing is the safe drive mode. It’s something super convenient which you have never experienced before.

 

JusAuto is the best voice calling app for drivers. It knows drivers best - free, safe and clear. The coolest feature of JusAuto is its safe drive mode: driving status sharing, and voice command to answer or decline the incoming calls.

 

Thank you help for a developer.

 

 

Talk about being off topic 

[Curti]

4 minutes ago, Skyking said:

 

 

Talk about being off topic 

I reported it .

[capngrog]

11 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Hudsy, I suppose one could put whatever spin they choose on the photo you've posted. Unless one of these people are an ancestor of yours or you have some untold knowledge of its circumstances, I see a white man cutting the shackles off a black man. A black man wearing trousers and a belt which leads me to believe that he would not have been newly arrived from Africa.

 

This past weekend, I saw a vise very similar to the one the sailor is using for sale at the Daytona Spring "Turkey" Run at Daytona International Speedway.  The vise was for sale in the swap meet area and appeared to be too heavy to carry, so I didn't inquire as to the price of the thing. 

 

The construction of the seating capacity expansion (at Daytona International Speedway) was completed a little over a year ago, and the place is quite impressive, with a reported seating capacity of 101,000.  I've not confirmed it, but friends who attended this year's Daytona 500 report that it was sold out.  One amusing thing about the seating is that adjacent seats are of different colors so that a quick pan of the TV cameras during an event doesn't show banks of empty seats, but instead, the seats appear to be occupied (due to the different colors).  'Shades' of Bill France Sr. and Smokey Yunick!

 

It will be interesting to see how attendance is at the upcoming NASCAR races this season.  If the decline in attendance continues, NASCAR could be in serious trouble; however, time will tell.

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

 

 

 

[Paul Dobbin]

PLEASE, Let's get this thread back to a old automobile related discussion.  We get enough politic's daily from other sources, we come here for antique car talk.

[Curti]

1 minute ago, Paul Dobbin said:

PLEASE, Let's get this thread back to a old automobile related discussion.  We get enough politic's daily from other sources, we come here for antique car talk.

It never started there. 

[60FlatTop]

I never cared for NASCAR racing much. And over the years I have figured out that some people actually think similar to me.

I grew up in an area where a stock car was a 1936 or 1937 Ford or Chevy gutted shell over a caged frame. The guys whom owned them typically ran a gas station where they hired a kid to pump gas and they would spend the week getting ready for the weekend race. There were five stations up through Main St. that fit the description. The owners worked late and drank beer while their Appalachian looking wife stood home barefoot with a half dozen kids. That is a very vivid memory for me. We had three tracks. One was paved. It didn't matter which one you went to, it was murder in the traffic leaving and your car had half an inch of dirty everywhere.

The BS flowed in the garages and at the track, too. In 1966 I went to the a local track to see the "new Toronado" run. It was a standard RWD modified frame with a shell on it.

 

At a young and impressionable age that stuff molds your lasting taste. We only saw the big names in monthly magazines. There was no connection for me other than what I grew up with. And I don't remember a role model in the bunch.

 

While I saw a lot of people become fans and buy the T shirt, but the jacket, buy the hat, buy the special model at a dealership, and spend most of Sunday watching commentary with race mixed it, well, it just didn't ring the bell. And then a couple decades ago I heard they were going to use the Indy track. Well, duh. That's a different track. Then I heard they were coming to Watkins Glen, well, double Duh. I had a ;57 Chevy out there and the 90 degree turn at the north end was a killer at 35 MPH! That ain't right, boys. And the guys next week aren't going to look favorably at getting Skoal juice on their Pirrellis.

 

I think the promoters just went out and over promoted the game. They OD'ed the crowd. Maybe their only hope is Lucha Racing.

 

Just so's I don't stay too close to topic, the conniving swindler who got my O'Brien side's money for the boat ride from Ireland never secured the paperwork. They were denied entry at New York and then Boston. In our family story they tell what a kind gentleman the Captain was and how he, finally, let them off in New Brunswick to find St. Catherine's and eventually access to the US through my Grandpa Jim.

The Daily side, on the other  hand, were brought across the St. Lawrence in the middle of the night by canoe and into the Malone, NY area. That was four generations ago and no one talked much about the Great, great Iroquois grandmother who arranged the ride, but I think she opted out of the ride and made rude gestures from the riverbank.

Bernie

[jrbartlett]

In an effort to get back closer to the original topic, when I was a kid growing up in the hobby in the 1960s, about two dozen of the AACA Gulf Coast Region members would gather to watch the Indianapolis 500 closed-circuit broadcast at a local movie theater. My brother and I -- young teenagers -- would get to tag along. We loved it. Everyone talked cars. Plus, the famous drivers A.J. Foyt and Lloyd Ruby used to hang out occasionally at an auto repair shop owned by one of the members -- a former race-car mechanic and builder -- so a number of the club members knew them casually. The closed circuit broadcasts were free of commercials -- unlike today's TV broadcast -- and they focused on the racing, instead of the human interest crud that interrupts today's TV broadcast. I'm always awestruck to see a restored Indy roadster from the 1950s and 1960s -- the cars that I read about at the time, and saw on the broadcasts. Then a few years ago I went to the museum in Hershey and there was the restored winner of the 1960 race, which my family and I had attended back in the day, sitting on the front row. So for at least some of us there is a strong connection between antique cars and racing.  

[capngrog]

21 minutes ago, jrbartlett said:

 ... and they focused on the racing, instead of the human interest crud that interrupts today's TV broadcast. 

 

So for at least some of us there is a strong connection between antique cars and racing.  

 

As for the human interest B.S., I have too often found myself shouting at the T.V. screen when, during the final lap(s) of a close race, the coverage splits the screen between shots of the racecars and the anxious face of a driver's girlfriend, fiancé or wife.  The split shots of the cars and the anxious face of a crew chief are even worse, since at least the drivers' girlfriends, fiancés or wives are much better lookin' than the crew chief!  I don't know how much NASCAR has to do with the T.V. coverage, but this poor coverage could have something to do with the decline in NASCAR's popularity.***

 

I'm an unrepentant gearhead, and I'm fascinated by almost anything mechanical.  I especially like cars, be they antique cars, racecars, hotrods, ratrods or even trucks.  NASCAR depends on gearheads such as myself to bolster the ranks of their fans, but continuing to populate race entries with "cookie cutter" look-alike cars having stickers for headlights, is definitely off-putting to this fan.***

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

                   *** Note that the closing sentences of the above-two paragraphs constitute a bald-faced attempt to keep my comments "ON TOPIC". 

[39BuickEight]

The are trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator rather than true race fans.  It's not working.

[mike6024]

2 hours ago, capngrog said:

This past weekend, I saw a vise very similar to the one the sailor is using

I have a vise like that. It belonged to my grandfather who did blacksmithing along with farming, etc. It's great. With the jaws closed I can use it like an anvil.

[Guest Oltrucker]

I dont like this new stage racing it takes away the competinance of the sport 

[46 woodie]

Heres what I would like to see NASCAR to do once a year. Sort of like a "Run what you brung" race. No restrictor plate, any spoiler angle you wish, within reason body mods., pit stops under green only. But make it a 500 or 600 mile race so that you have to limit your modifications or your car won't last. Let the crew chief get "creative" with the modifications and pit stops. At least one race won't be boring.

[old car fan]

Bottom line, they are racing the stupid rules.Same with all sports

[supercargirl]

Oddly enough I just bookmarked this article today.  I thought it was interesting because as a Docent at the Simeone Automotive Museum we talk about how racing was instrumental in the development of the automobile.  I admit I don't know much about NASCAR but it seems those days are really over.http://www.metcalfracing.com/live_pages/Rants.php

[60FlatTop]

Some guy recently said there are too many regulations everywhere, too much trying being fair or nice. I remember telling my Wife and kids that fair was for women and children. Then I left for work on the midnight shift in a hot boiler room.

[MCHinson]

http://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/story/_/id/18992860/new-cars-3-characters-inspired-nascar-legends 

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 2:49 PM, Hudsy Wudsy said:

I'm sorry, but the majority of Americans see the rebel flag as being just as seditious today as then. The sight of it really is offensive to many people. But, you know that. You see, your remarks about who was responsible for slavery (the slave traders, not the slave buyers) are perfect examples of exactly what causes elevated and heated rhetoric and leads the moderators to have to close down otherwise enjoyable and meaningful discussions on these forums. Please avoid the politics, and, especially the politics of one hundred fifty years ago.

 

 I doubt that 1/2 of the American population would even be able to identify the rebel flag.

[West Peterson]

On 3/27/2017 at 3:29 PM, John_S_in_Penna said:

I can see how having fair rules, and playing by them, would make the race more interesting....

 

 

I believe just the opposite if those rules restrict creativity. If you remove creativity, you remove interest, and that's just what has happened. I haven't been interested in "stock car" races since the early 1970s. Today, from images I see once in a while, it looks more like a circus dog-and-pony show.

[Restorer32]

A local car finished 7th at Daytona in 1957 despite the pit crew having to change tires with a lug wrench because they could not afford an impact driver. Now that was racing. Dad supplied experimental recaps to the "Old Reliable" drag car. After many tries Dad was able to use a very soft rubber compound. Great grip but a set of these tires only lasted for one run down the quarter mile. That's the kind of experimentation that NASCAR used to foster. Now it's just a business trying to maximize profits.

[John_S_in_Penna]

For anyone with a great sense of humor,

here's some brief comedic relief.  Driver Jeff Gordon

goes undercover, pretending to test-drive a

Camaro, and gives the salesman some unexpected adventure:

(Poor salesman!)

 

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

We had the used tire shop so the dirt trackers would stop by and get my Uncle Eddie to give them a trim.

 

 

My Dad and my Uncle worked part time there.  Eddie was really good with the hand grooving iron. He could deepen the tread to look like original on some of the premium tires.

 

My Dad worked Tuesday and Thursday evenings using the hi-tech Honeycut regrooving machine. It was a rotating fixture with a hand grooving iron mounted on an oscillating rack to cut new tread on completely bald tires. He had hinged three section rims and tubes to keep the tire hard during the process. I wish I had a few pictures of the shop and equipment.

 

We got into some legal problems after they banned regrooved tires but they are good for race cars, some busses, and I wouldn't be afraid to drive on them if I picked the casing.

 

To the racing, those were days when the playing fiend was anything but level. Today level playing fields limits nearly everything. The first five placing cars are seconds apart after 500 miles. That's not a race. It is a form of mastuxxxxxxx, 'er mastering driving.

Bernir

[Restorer32]

I still remember the smell of that regrooving iron gliding thru that rubber in Dad'd tire shop.

[Restorer32]

I'm sure your Dad as did mine ground a few 32nds off the tip of that tread depth measuring tool.

[trimacar]

I really don't like Nascar just because of the "cookie cutter" race cars.  A true race would combine the talents of the builders and drivers of the cars, not regulate to the nth degree every little thing on the car.

 

As to States Rights, the Federal Government was admitting one free state and one slave state into the Union until 1858.  Slavery didn't just pop up out of nowhere, the Federal Government condoned it by admitting slave states.  Then, in 1858 and 1859, free states were admitted to the Union with no "balancing" slave states, and the slave states saw States Rights being taken away from them.  They then, in accordance with the then-constitution, began discussion of legal succession.  It was only AFTER the Civil War that attempting to succeed from the Union became illegal.

 

In fact, all those people signing petitions now for California to succeed from the Union are, in actuality, committing treason against the United States.

 

The Stars and Bars was the battle flag of one group of Southerners, it was NOT the symbol of slavery, nor was it the Confederate flag.

 

Well, I guess that's about enough about The War of Northern Aggression!  Back to cars.....Makes me want to find a Dixie automobile, though......

[capngrog]

46 minutes ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

If the states endorse the right to hold slaves, then the Federal simply has to intervene.

At the time of the beginning of the Civil War, slavery was legal throughout the United States.  It was not until the adoption of (January 31, 1865) and ratification of(December 02, 1865) the 13th Amendment, that slavery was officially abolished throughout the United States.  The secession of the original seven Southern (Confederacy) States and the Union's reaction to the secession is actually what resulted in the South firing the first shots of the Civil War at Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861.  Although many factors were involved in the secession of the Southern States, one of most critical was the question of slavery.

 

Many folks take offense at the firing of aerial torpedoes/mortars at the conclusion of a NASCAR race because they think it signifies the Confederate bombardment of Fort Sumter.  Others believe that the race-concluding fireworks constitute an endorsement of war and should therefore be banned.  Until that offensive post-race display of violence is banned from all NASCAR events, the attendance (by civilized peoples) at NASCAR events will continue to decline.  Don't even get me started on the offensive overflight display of military (armed to the teeth) aircraft at the conclusion of the singing of the National Anthem!  Now, as to the National Anthem itself, which is offensive to our British brethren ... ***

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

               *** This paragraph was just another bald-faced attempt to keep my post ON TOPIC

[60FlatTop]

There are a lot of 60-70 year old's whom don't know much more about the history of the United States than what Walt Disney taught them in his movies. That may not be a bad thing.

 

We just had a peaceful election that ousted the new aristocracy and family lineage of office the same way the Civil War did. That's progress. Maybe all those rebel flags flying for 100+ years sunk in.

 

And Canada dug the Welland Canal as a barrier to keep the Civil War refugees out of Ontario.

 

Ahhh, the human experience. Life ain't living without a pinch of Copenhagen.

 

Think about that Walt Disney comment.

Bernie

[trimacar]

Henry Ford is quoted about history, the most oft quoted is "History is bunk".  The less quoted is "History is, more or less, bunk".  The third, almost unknown HF quote, is "History is myth".

 

I'm from Louisiana.  My wife is from a little town outside Pittsburgh, Pa.  We've compared notes (read that to say "we've heatedly discussed") about what we were taught in school about the Civil War.  Trust me, we were both taught totally different viewpoints.  Thus, there is no "universal history" being taught.....

 

She once read a history of my family, and found out that in the 1840's a long distant relative of mine had over 100 slaves.  She didn't talk to me for two days.....