1912 Overland Whippet

[Guest ldbrekke@q.com]

A friend of mine has this 1912 Overland Whippet that he was thinking about selling. It the complete chassis and engine and transmission on wheels. He is telling me its a model 59 with 104" wheel base. It has a home made wooden cab as a body. The chassis is in nice shape with an extra motor and hood is there too. Fenders are in good shape for being 1912. Can anyone help put a price on this car?  Let me know.  Thanks

[Akstraw]

That's a tough one, given the missing body.  It does seem to have all the lights and brass.   My guess, just one guy's opinion, somewhere around thirty five hundred or four thousand dollars if the engine is not stuck.

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

In this case, the value is in direct relation to your masochism.

 

No matter how cheap you get into it, you're never getting out for anywhere near the amount invested, unless your buying it as scrap metal.

 

I hate to be cynical and I hate to see cars like this go bye-bye but everything I see so far says 'money-pit'.

 

[1912Staver]

Certainly an Overland but definitely not a Whippet. The Whippet was a small car Willys - Overland introduced in 1926, long after this Overland was built.  Previous two  posts are quite correct , the homemade body has a serious impact on the value. Finding a correct body will be tough and expensive.  That said Overland's are quite decent cars and this one could be a good project. A short term solution would be to construct a period correct "speedster " body, it would at least look better than the 1920's truck body. What sort of price did your friend have in mind ?

Greg in Canada

Edited August 9, 2016 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[8E45E]

Here's a 1913 Touring:

 

 

And a 1916:

 

 

Craig

[Mark Shaw]

It would make a great brass era speedster, and would qualify for National HCCA tours.

[wayne sheldon]

Excellent start for a speedster. Not much else, sorry to say. The best thing for the car would be to build a proper touring car body and restore it as such. However, by the time you were done, you would probably have $40,000 (or easily a lot more?) invested in a $30,000 car. It may be possible (although unlikely) to find a decent restorable appropriate body for the car. That would help the situation a bit, but not much. For a little less money, you could replicate or modify a period roadster body. Era roadsters are much more rare than touring cars, but also much less desirable to most buyers (and therefore worth less) when you go to sell it.

A properly done, era correct, speedster could be done well for a fraction of the cost. Properly done, no harm would be done to the chassis or even the fenders to do this. The finished value would depend a lot on how properly done it was, and basically the future value would always be a lot less than a proper touring car. But relative to what it would cost to be done? You probably could do pretty well on it if you can do most of the work yourself.

It could be a great way to get an HCCA  acceptable car.

 

Another point to think about. If I recall correctly. In the mid '10s, just a short distance from where Overland built their cars, was a company that built custom ordered speedsters along with other coachwork. Unfortunately, I do not remember the name of the company. But because Overland was close by, they used more than a few Overland chassis for their speedsters. The brother-in-law of a good friend had one (and knew of a couple others) about 40 years ago. They are gone now, so I cannot ask them. But I seem to also recall reading an article on the company about 40 years ago in one of the hobby magazines. It is unlikely that I could find the magazine.

 

As to value? I don't really like appraising other peoples junk uh stuff. I have seen quite a few HCCA compatible chassis over the years. I have seen a couple in the $3500 to $7500 range within the past two years. From the photos, it looks fairly nice. Maybe on the higher side of that range? On the other hand! If it was used as a truck? Just how worn out is it? Trucks were usually over-loaded and run to death.

Good luck.

W2

[8E45E]

Looking at the short wheelbase, it appears to have been a coupe, or a much rarer roadster at one time.  Half the battle is over with what appears to be a complete frame and drive train.  I would actively keep looking for a body for it.  Hershey would be a great place to start that hunt.

 

Craig

[Restorer32]

And as usual everyone jumps on the "it would cost more to restore than it would be worth" band wagon. Pity the Philistine who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. Where is this car located?

[mercer09]

value around 4500. for the chassis-speedster is a good choice

also there is a fella on ebay from Maine, who builds all kinds of delivery's as well as the speedster bodies.

 

I would sell it as is and certainly worth 4500. with the brass.  GL!

[JV Puleo]

Funny,

When I was looking for a brass car — and I wanted one without a body – I saw nothing actually priced in the ranges mentioned above. As Restorer32 rightly suggests, the overwhelming attitude of this forum, and nearly always first response to any question like this is "you won't make money on it". So, if you are really interested in a brass car and you aren't looking to flip it, it's a great start and, I'd say, in the $7500 to $8500 range or maybe even a bit more would be fair. I paid more for a car in much less complete condition (but which is somewhat bigger). I strongly suspect that all, or most of the people on this forum have never bought, much less restored, a brass car. I think the general attitude here is profoundly discouraging, as if no one has any interest beyond making a quick buck.

[poci1957]

7 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Another point to think about. If I recall correctly. In the mid '10s, just a short distance from where Overland built their cars, was a company that built custom ordered speedsters along with other coachwork. Unfortunately, I do not remember the name of the company. But because Overland was close by, they used more than a few Overland chassis for their speedsters.

 

Wayne, just FYI there is an excellent site called www.coachbuilt.com that has listings for most body companies in the US and you can lookup by name, state, or alphabetical, you might see the name and jog your memory if interested, Todd C

[Restorer32]

43 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Funny,

When I was looking for a brass car — and I wanted one without a body – I saw nothing actually priced in the ranges mentioned above. As Restorer32 rightly suggests, the overwhelming attitude of this forum, and nearly always first response to any question like this is "you won't make money on it". So, if you are really interested in a brass car and you aren't looking to flip it, it's a great start and, I'd say, in the $7500 to $8500 range or maybe even a bit more would be fair. I paid more for a car in much less complete condition (but which is somewhat bigger). I strongly suspect that all, or most of the people on this forum have never bought, much less restored, a brass car. I think the general attitude here is profoundly discouraging, as if no one has any interest beyond making a quick buck.

 

I would be highly insulted if I told a friend I was thinking about taking up golf and his first response was "You know, you'll never get your money back. Far better to take up Tiddly Winks or some other endeavor that won't cost so much". Imagine going to buy a set of golf clubs and arguing with the salesman that the clubs were too expensive and would never be worth more than you were about to pay for them.

[JV Puleo]

A few weeks ago there was a good thread on this subject, started by Joe in Canada. Joe initiated the thread stating that he was looking into a pre-1916 project. He received all sorts of advice, most of it based on the problems associated with restoring post-WWII cars and which, to my mind, was almost completely irrelevant. Only three or four of the members who responded actually had brass car experience and generally, their views were at odds with the others.

 

Overland was a fairly good, mid-size car. They made a number of models, the largest of which was a 40HP which is a fairly big brass car. I suspect the Model 59 is the smallest, probably similar in size to a Model T Ford but, at the time, a much more sophisticated design. The chassis looks as complete as you have any hope of finding and an extra engine is a big plus. There will always be mechanical problems that will need to be addressed and, if your intention is to have someone else solve them, then expect to pay for that service. That is something it has in common with all old cars although, in the case of brass cars, it is far more common to have to make parts simply because there are no suppliers and the number of surviving cars precludes there being readily available replacement parts. Personally, I'd take that car over any post-WWII car... and probably over most from the teens, 20s and 30s.

 

[ch1929]

But it, get running and drive it like it is. You could have a ball!

[poci1957]

3 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

............As Restorer32 rightly suggests, the overwhelming attitude of this forum, and nearly always first response to any question like this is "you won't make money on it"..........I think the general attitude here is profoundly discouraging, as if no one has any interest beyond making a quick buck.

 

Restorer32's and JV's comments have a point that the forum often seems to discuss the money.  However, I will take another angle on this and say it is probably less about being profoundly discouraging than keeping the fledgling hobbyist grounded.  Regulars here must all know that the hobby is generally a financial cost rather than a profitable investment, no matter what we tell ourselves.  But the money is always foremost with those looking in--they have been conditioned to always follow the money by the TV shows and articles.  How many of us are asked "what's it worth" at every car outing?  And how many newcomers have delusions of grandeur on old car selling prices?  I think most regulars just want to caution the newcomer that an old car is not a get-rich-quick exercise, THEN we can get into the nuts and bolts that most of us are really into.  And I quite appreciate Restorer32's golf reference.  Just my thoughts, I am interested in others take on this too, Todd C    

[Bud Tierney]

I'll go with Todd C above...while the old car hobby isn't necessarily a rich mans sport, it's no service to newly interested parties to

minimize the all too real costs involved in a major project...and while it's also true some heartfelt desires can't be looked at from a price standpoint, life does tend to intervene...

For those who have 20-30K surplus funds, without any concerns for long term family income, without depriving the wife of some of the things she enjoys or the kids looming college educations, I'm very happy for you; you're very fortunate...but you really should take into consideration not everyone's that fortunate...

IMHO, letting a new enthusiast get bogged down a project beyond their means, that turns into a family albatross,  will not  help the hobby...better something not quite so distinctive that can be finished, operated, driven, enjoyed, than a financial sinkhole in the garage that family members remember, unkindly, as "Dad's Obsession"...

None of this is meant harshly; it's just the way life and its responsibiities are for the majority of old car hobbyists.....

[Restorer32]

Some merit to what you say but if cost were the only consideration there would be no restored Model T Fords, no restored Model A Fords. In fact there would be very, very few restored cars. There must be some things other than cost that factor into a person's desire to restore a car. When asked about the expense of restoring an antique car I answer that question as honestly as I can but I don't start every old car conversation with "You will be upside down in no time". We have a shop full of work and not one car here is being restored with profit, or even break even, in mind. Believe it or not there are folks who enjoy the process of restoring a car or paying to have it restored whether or not they actually intend to drive the car much when it's finished.

[dei]

(A friend of mine has this 1912 Overland Whippet that he was thinking about selling. It the complete chassis and engine and transmission on wheels. He is telling me its a model 59 with 104" wheel base. It has a home made wooden cab as a body. The chassis is in nice shape with an extra motor and hood is there too. Fenders are in good shape for being 1912. Can anyone help put a price on this car?  Let me know.  Thanks)

 

I'm surprised no one has suggested looking at the WOKR (Willys, Overland, Knight Registry) as they have a forum not unlike the AACA, Buick Club of America and other marques. 

They would offer brass car ideas being familiar with Overland's and such.

They also have an excellent collection of original blue prints which one can purchase of many models. I personally know and have a blue print for the back section of the rumble seat Dad bought when restoring our car. Check out their web site and scroll through the many pictures. They are an excellent resource and club.

You also may find someone there that would be interested if you think it might be more than you might want to take on.

Good luck!  Keep us informed.

(From another Overland Owner)

 

Edited August 9, 2016 by dei (see edit history)

[poci1957]

27 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

There must be some things other than cost that factor into a person's desire to restore a car......there are folks who enjoy the process of restoring a car or paying to have it restored whether or not they actually intend to drive the car much when it's finished.

 

I agree and in fact I am exhibit A on that, I have gone to much trouble and expense to house and restore a car for over 20 years just because I thought it would be rewarding to complete (still waiting for that BTW--both the rewarding and the completing).  And I decry the constant money fixation and say old cars can be a rather democratic hobby enjoyable on many budgets.  I just think so many people are misguided in their expectations that we are doing them a favor by gently (especially compared to other websites) offering the wisdom of our experiences, which they can take or leave of course.  I still see us as possibly serving to help the newcomer avoid family strife as mentioned by Bud Tierney and/or yet another unfinished or damaged project car left to rot in a garage or backyard.      

[mercer09]

 

When I was looking for a brass car — and I wanted one without a body – I saw nothing actually priced in the ranges mentioned above. As Restorer32 rightly suggests, the overwhelming attitude of this forum, and nearly always first response to any question like this is "you won't make money on it". So, if you are really interested in a brass car and you aren't looking to flip it, it's a great start and, I'd say, in the $7500 to $8500 range or maybe even a bit more would be fair. I paid more for a car in much less complete condition (but which is somewhat bigger). I strongly suspect that all, or most of the people on this forum have never bought, much less restored, a brass car. I think the general attitude here is profoundly discouraging, as if no one has any interest beyond making a quick buck.

 

 

I based my 4500. evaluation on the fact that a 1912 Stude emf that was relatively complete, but needing a full restoration sold on ebay for 8500. last week,

Yes, with the original body. question originally asked was to value- Restorer, you shouldnt always be so upset about folks here trying to price. We understand you are in this as a business and I certainly respect that. But when someone asks a pertinent question regarding value, many of us try to chime in. We are all only trying to help and agreed, money isnt everything, but the vast majority on this board dont have an endless supply of it...........

 

I think you yourself would agree to that.

Edited August 10, 2016 by mercer09 (see edit history)

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

Many of the replies above express my own attitude, and for that I am grateful to not have to spend so much time typing an explanation.

 

The thing is that when reading a post like this there is no way of knowing where the OP really 'is'.  Telling that person it will be an expensive labor-of-love is probably the only favor that can be offered.

Far too often I have to go from a customer asking 'Can you make it GO, Jordi' to 'You can't afford it'.

 

All of that said, I wouldn't spend much on buying that car, but if I did, I also would be more inclined to restore it 'as-is', Beverly Hillbillies Body and all.  After all, that IS part of that car's history.

Regardless, there's no money in doing it.  Read between the lines.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Grumpy's Auto Shop (see edit history)

[Luv2Wrench]

Oh man... please let that car not be located in the South East.....

[1937hd45]

Bottom line, someone in Europe who has a love and understand of cars for this vintage will buy it. Bob

[Binger]

Great Start to a brass era speedster. Would love to have one like that to start on!

 

[Rusty_OToole]

I think the consensus is, if you want a restored, original Overland you would do better to buy a different one because it would be too difficult and expensive to restore that one, seeing as it is without a body.

 

But if you wanted a non stock body like a speedster or truck it would make a good start, but of course, would never be as valuable as an original car.

 

So, the value of that car is limited but it is far from worthless. Would that be a better way to look at it?

[Akstraw]

After some thought, I would add two additional comments to my original reply.  First is that I think a running car will usually bring more than a non-running car.  So if your objective is to maximize the value, it might be worth getting it running, especially if that doesn't require too much time and expenditure.  Second is that you of course can trade time for price.  A lower asking price would logically bring a faster sale, and vice versa.  If not in a hurry, you can advertise it here and other places for seven or eight thousand, and patiently wait to see what interest you attract.  On the other hand, you could list it for $2500 or so and probably move it rather quickly.  I agree that it would be a nice speedster project.  Too bad my shop is full at the moment.  Good luck!

 

Andrew

[Rusty_OToole]

A word of caution, unless you are an expert mechanic on brass era cars you will do more harm than good trying to get it running, and will reduce the value rather than enhance it. I don't know how many old cars I have looked at, that I would have paid hundreds of dollars more for, if they had only left it alone. This is especially true if the car has been out of commission for many years.

[poci1957]

13 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

A word of caution, unless you are an expert mechanic on brass era cars you will do more harm than good trying to get it running, and will reduce the value rather than enhance it...... This is especially true if the car has been out of commission for many years.

 

I definitely agree with this, especially on brass cars

[Rusty_OToole]

On cars like that the easiest thing to fix is whatever fault caused them to stop driving it. Next hardest is to make good the deterioration caused by years of disuse. Most difficult, and most expensive to put right, is the damage done by inexpert hands trying to "improve" or "repair" or "get running".

[poci1957]

2 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

On cars like that the easiest thing to fix is whatever fault caused them to stop driving it. Next hardest is to make good the deterioration caused by years of disuse. Most difficult, and most expensive to put right, is the damage done by inexpert hands trying to "improve" or "repair" or "get running".

 

Very true...true enough on all old cars but double on a brass car where a novice can break stuff.  And how many shade tree guys now will buy and read manuals for mainstream cars, much less something pre-1915?  We could only hope such an early car would dissuade an amateur to leave it alone, Todd C

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

1 hour ago, poci1957 said:

 

Very true...true enough on all old cars but double on a brass car where a novice can break stuff.  And how many shade tree guys now will buy and read manuals for mainstream cars, much less something pre-1915?  We could only hope such an early car would dissuade an amateur to leave it alone, Todd C

 

FWIW, in order to keep the doors of my Shop open I am forced to take 'in-and-out' jobs on modern vehicles. Because of this I have a full arsenal of OBD tools as well as a couple of terabytes of tech/service info and I still am constantly 'going to school'.  It seems there are NO 'routine repairs' that ever make it to my door.

What is uniform is that at the days end, when I figured out what others couldn't (and invented whole new chains of obscenities in the process), more often than not I wind up fixing a previous mistake.  Or two. Or...  You see, I had no reason to go in to looking for the cause of the problem being that someone fixed the leak with Wrigley's when the manual clearly says to use Beeman's.

When I finally discover that the cause of the Exhaust Manifold Leak is that someone used a cut-nail as a spacer to fit the wrong Manifold, I feel like a Rookie because I didn't see it sooner.  But then when I find that they also stripped the threads on the Stud and it couldn't be brought to proper torque regardless, I feel a little better.

I'm never sure if the customer thinks I'm a raving lunatic when I'm trying to explain this to them.

But from where I sit, the older the car is, the more probable that it has been fiddled with by someone armed with nothing more than best-intentions and an aged copy of Popular Mechanics on at least one occasion.

I want to repeat though that if it were ME buying the car shown in the OP, I'd try to keep its full heritage intact, which includes the 'custom' body. 

[Guest fossiltin62]

Sir, I have a touring body (rough - needs complete re-wooding) if you've any interest. Also nice fenders. Perhaps one of us should buy what the other has. Discuss this with me if you wish. 580-763-2921