autoluke Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Following a complete rebuild, my flathead turns only with much effort at the front pulley. It has been suggested that adding pressurized oil at the oil galley connection will solve the problem by introducing better lubrication to the bearings. Need suggestions as to where I can locate a system to make this happen ... either electric or pneumatic would be fine. Thanks, Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 I wouldn't run the engine until you figure out why it's that tight. Even with only assembly lube, it should turn without standing on a breaker bar. If you can't turn the engine without a little muscle on a 1/2" socket wrench, something's too tight. Are the plugs out? It will obviously turn harder if they are in. If it were me, I'd try to figure out why it was so tight to begin with. Did you check bearing clearances on the rods and mains? Piston ring end gaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stude Light Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 The engine should have been assembled with "Assembly Oil" which is a sticky, high viscosity oil with high adherence properties so it doesn't run out of the bearings or off the cylinder walls. This oil generally makes the engine a bit hard to turn over. Additionally, there are probably a few high spots on the bearings that will need worn in. Hopefully your engine was not assembled dry! If so you would need to pull the pan and spray a lot of oil around. If it was assembled properly, I'm doubtful that pressurizing the system will make much difference. Certainly won't hurt though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autoluke Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 Engine was assembled using the correct grease, but is now tighter than before after several attempts to start . My plan to try the pressure system is an attempt to move the pan removal as option two. Car is resting on the tires so that the p[an approach would require an earth-to-pan procedure...not fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterc9 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 If the engine was properly assembled with the assembly lube pressure lubing shouldn't be necessary. The pressure lube might wash out the assembly lube. You want the assembly lube in there on the first start. Try taking out the spark plugs. Are you saying the starter won't turn it over? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autoluke Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 Engine did turn over with the starter, but now will not. Only way to turn it is with a 24" bar on the pulley. Might be time to drop the pan, but my local sources are suggesting the pressure approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F&J Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 1 hour ago, autoluke said: Engine was assembled using the correct grease, but is now tighter than before after several attempts to start . My plan to try the pressure system is an attempt to move the pan removal as option two. Car is resting on the tires so that the p[an approach would require an earth-to-pan procedure...not fun. Something is very wrong here. It is not lack of oil at the bearings, if it is getting tighter and has not been run yet. ( if it had adequate assembly lube) If it's getting tighter, and not run yet....just my opinion, then it sounds like something is seizing up. Normally in this situation, I would suspect the bearings too tight, before assuming the pistons are seizing. Normally a tight piston after rebuild won't get tighter if it never got hot from test running. A "too tight" bearing definitely can get tighter just from just using the starter multiple times. 20 minutes ago, misterc9 said: If the engine was properly assembled with the assembly lube pressure lubing shouldn't be necessary. The pressure lube might wash out the assembly lube. You want the assembly lube in there on the first start. Try taking out the spark plugs. Are you saying the starter won't turn it over? I agree. I also definitely would take the plugs out and see how it feels. If it feels abnormally tighter than after assembly, I would definitely pull the pan to inspect bearings. I would not fire this engine until more diagnosis is done. If a bearing is tight and starting to seize, the bearing is already bad, but the crank is likely still ok. If you fired an engine with a seizing bearing, the crank will be damaged and need resurfacing. If the bearings are too tight to be causing "increasing" drag, remote pressurizing will not fix it. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen_Dyneto Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) I very strongly recommend that you DO NOT continue to attempt to turn this engine over. Start a disassembly until the mis-fitted parts are identified and fixed. At this point all you can do by further efforts to start or rotate is damage. Edited July 19, 2016 by Owen_Dyneto (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autoluke Posted July 19, 2016 Author Share Posted July 19, 2016 Thanks for the warning ! Having now located a pneumatic oil pressuring system I will drop the pan and observe the bearings while under that pressure. Could provide a clue as to exactly where the problem lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Did it do a full revolution or stopped after a few degrees of turning? If so, you may have installed the camshaft incorrectly - the valves maybe hitting the pistons. But like others have suggested, pull the oil pan out and inspect. There is something drastically wrong. I doubt its tight bearings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leon bee Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I wouldn't mind hearing what it was, after it's figured out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 What is the history of the engine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I too would vote for pulling the pan and loosening the rod caps one at a time then trying to turn over the engine by hand. If you loosen up a rod and then it will turn easily, you found the problem. Two things that I have found with tight engines. On both engines I did the one rod at a time diagnostic. The first engine I found an offending rod too tight.. The second time it turned out to be a crankshaft pulley put on backwards tightened to the timing cover. I just had my engine redone and you can turn it over by had with the flywheel. Not easily, but by hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterc9 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 It's a flathead. The valves aren't going to hit the pistons. Possibly the cylinder walls are dry and dragging. Spray some oil in the cylinders. Why would the machine shop let an engine out if it was that tight? What kind of car is this ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 19 minutes ago, misterc9 said: It's a flathead Doh!.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maok Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 47 minutes ago, misterc9 said: Why would the machine shop let an engine out if it was that tight? Totally agree. How long ago was the engine re-built? Has it been sitting for a long while since re-build? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I wonder if whoever built this engine bothered trying the rings in the cylinders BEFORE installing them on the pistons. I stopped trusting rings would fit years ago........and for good reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I was going to suggest ring end gaps as I read this. Been there... I have a vague recollection that it tightened up when I tried to start it. The rings break and the broken ends dig in. How much force was used to get the pistons in the cylinders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autoluke Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 EUTREKA !!! Dropped the pan, only to have the oil pump assembly come with it. Seems that the shop forgot to bolt up the pump when they put everything together, so that I have been trying to turn an engine with zero pump pressure. The experts are expected here today..should be an interesting meeting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 2 hours ago, autoluke said: EUTREKA !!! Dropped the pan, only to have the oil pump assembly come with it. Seems that the shop forgot to bolt up the pump when they put everything together, so that I have been trying to turn an engine with zero pump pressure. The experts are expected here today..should be an interesting meeting. I'm guessing that's not going to be the only problem you find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 If the shop "forgot" to bolt up the oil pump I would be wary of any other work they did. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 An engine builder who forgets to install an oil pump isn't any kind of "expert" that I'd trust. I just can't see how that's a simple mistake. He had the oil pump in his hand, he had the oil pan ready to install, and he just threw it in there and called it done! That's not an, "Oops!" that's, "Meh, fark this guy." Please don't take this the wrong way, but there's exactly nothing on that engine I would ever trust at this point. If your engine builder is a stand-up guy, hopefully he'll give you your money back so you can pay someone else to check his work. However, if he's like many half-assed workers (and they are legion), he'll tell you to go screw yourself and try to imply that this was somehow your fault. Avoid the temptation to say, "Well, good enough, we clearly found the problem, let's fire it up!" A poor workman's work doesn't manifest itself as one glaring error, it manifests itself in a million smaller ways, too. If he screwed up the easy part (installing an oil pump), there's just no way he totally nailed it on bearing clearances and ring gaps. Right now the engine is easy to access and you have a guy on the hook for shoddy workmanship. If you let him walk away from the engine without double-checking everything he did, it's on you when you're stranded by the side of the road cursing his name. And at that point (when there's a complete car around the engine), it will also be a lot more expensive to put things right. You get one chance to get it right with an engine. Make this your chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Yow! Given the "rebuilder's" carelessness and the tightness, the engine needs to be torn down to check bearing clearances, piston skirt clearances, and ring gaps. Actually only an afternoon's work. But If the gaps and clearances are not correct that's another whole story...............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 So does it turn over any easier with the pump and pan removed? If it has not been started you have never had any pressure to it. It should turn easily for a long time with just the assembly lube. You will have to crank the engine for quite awhile before you will experience ant oil pressure. So I guess what I am thinking is that if it is still tight you probably have another problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) If this engine is a Mopar, pump is external with the pickup in the oil pan. Removing pan and or pump wouldn't make it any easier to turn unless pickup is interfering with crank. To many quetion to ask. Is the owner performing the work? With help? Etc. Edited July 20, 2016 by countrytravler (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Bruce aka First Born Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 10 hours ago, autoluke said: EUTREKA !!! Dropped the pan, only to have the oil pump assembly come with it. Seems that the shop forgot to bolt up the pump when they put everything together, so that I have been trying to turn an engine with zero pump pressure. The experts are expected here today..should be an interesting meeting. To say the least!!! Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrytravler Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 19 minutes ago, First Born said: To say the least!!! Ben I would love to talk to them while they are looking over the engine. Many quetions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinneyhill Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Put your phone on "record" and record the conversation from your chest pocket! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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