Coupe...the word has lost all meaning.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

In the past week alone I have come across ads for lots and lots of coupes. One ad was for a four door "business coupe" (a four door sedan), one other was for a "six window coupe" (another four door sedan) and this Olds that I'm including a link to is advertised as a "2 door coupe". The ad for this '39 Olds tells you "that it's a rare 1939 model 60 and very few of these were ever made, this model was only made in 1939." Well, models 60 were first offered in '39 and continued throughout the '40s. The last model 60 Olds was made in '48. I can't, however, really criticize the seller, he is right that the only year that the '39 Olds model 60 was available was 1939. The following year the 1939 Olds model 60 was replaced by another one year only car -- the 1940 Olds model 60. He ends his ad with the now standard caveat to be a "serious buyer" and not to be a "scammer". Shoot! My plans are foiled!

 

http://detroit.craigslist.org/wyn/cto/5632307601.html

Edited June 21, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[capngrog]

What is your definition of "coupe" relative to cars?

 

Grog

[Matt Harwood]

Both BMW and Mercedes are now calling 4-door sedans "coupes" because they have sleeker roof lines. Both have SUVs with four doors that they call coupes. It feels like lying to me.
 

Here's a BMW 6-Series "coupe:"

 

Aaaand a 4-Series Gran Coupe, which used to be known as the 3-Series sedan but for some reason BMW decided the 3- 5- and 7-Series would all be 4-door sedans while the 2- 4- and 6-Series would be 2-door coupes, which totally explains this 4-door 4-Series "Coupe." Anyone else feel like they're stupider now that you know this? BMW certainly thinks you're stupid.

 

 

Here, both BMW and Mercedes-Benz answer a question that absolutely nobody is asking with 6200-pound (that's 1000 pounds more than a 1976 Eldorado convertible, for God's sake), 500 horsepower SUVs that can't go off-road, have tiny back seats, no cargo space, and are inexplicably BOTH called "coupes." Mercedes even goes so far as to advertise the fact that they've invented a "whole new type of motor vehicle" despite the fact that their brutally ugly GLE "Coupe" is almost a 100% knock-off of the BMW X6 "Coupe" that has been in production for nearly a decade. Two great brands that have totally lost their way trying to be all things to all people. I feel like that red Mercedes below is giving me cancer every time I look at it.

 

 

Nobody cares about precision in language anymore.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Joe in Canada]

But GM had a five passenger coupe in the 20s and 30s with a small back seat and minimal leg room but it was a two door.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[Dave Mellor NJ]

I totally agree with youse guys about the seeming lack of importance felt by these car makers to correctly label their products.It's along the same line as reported MPG ratings. .

[mike6024]

My experience is that a 2-door with a rear seat, room for 4 adults is called a sedan. A coupe would only be 2-doors, with either no rear seat or a small rear seat only good for groceries or kids.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said:

But GM had a five passenger coupe in the 20s and 30s with a small back seat and minimal leg room but it was a two door.

The man offering the '39 Olds called his two door sedan a coupe. Yes, of course coupes have 2 doors. And, yes, coupes can have a rear seat. It's not the number of seats, but the configuration of the seating area that defines a coupe. The concept is that the passenger area is diminished as compared to a conventional "sedan". It's similar to the use of the term "close coupled" when describing certain similarly configured sedans. Coupes, to the best of my knowledge, almost always have storage areas outside of the passenger compartment, to the rear. There may be exceptions to that of which I'm not aware. That available storage became attractive to businessmen over time and thus was expanded greatly in the thirties. The term "business coupe" came from this type of car because of it's use to the traveling salesman. It was usually a no frills model that often emphasized it's functionality, as opposed to a "sport coupe" which was marketed for it's sporty appearance.  The only reason that I've gone on here at length about trunks is that while a large extended trunk is characteristic of many coupes, it doesn't define the word. The word "coupe" defines the size of the passenger space. Most coupes prior to the mid thirties had only moderate size rear storage space, like the one you've pictured.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[cahartley]

What you think about this '48 Lincoln Coupe?

 

 

How about the term "Bubble top"?........which drives me insane!........ 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

As far as modern day marketers misappropriating the word, I suppose that someone figured out that it has some allure, or classy ring to it. They don't do much, though, without approval of market research panels.

[nzcarnerd]

The word coupe is related to the French word for cut, more specifically from 'carrosse coupe' a 'cut off carriage'.  Even though a coupe traditionally has two doors there is nothing in the definition of the word coupe to suggest it necessarily should.   -   http://www.dictionary.com/browse/coupe?s=t

[George Smolinski]

Did anyone notice the Cadillac "coupe" in one of the photos?

[Restorer32]

In 1932 Packard offered a Coupe Sedan (5 passenger)  as well as a Coupe Roadster (with roll up windows)

[Guest Skyking]

Where does "convertible coupe" fit in all this.....?

[John_S_in_Penna]

30 minutes ago, Skyking said:

Where does "convertible coupe" fit in all this.....?

 

As you probably know, a "convertible" is a car that converts

from an open car to a closed car.

That is regardless of body style.

 

Prior to the mid-1920's, enclosed cars were often the most expensive body styles.

When all open cars were roadsters, without roll-up windows,

a convertible was a big advancement for open-air enthusiasts.

 

[alsancle]

Funny,  I was just thinking about this yesterday when I saw an eBay ad for what was clearly a 2 door sedan that was being referred to as a business coupe.

 

Precision of language is not just going out the window with relation to cars, it is eroding everywhere in society.

[Restorer32]

To even further confuse matters some manufacturers considered what we would commonly call 4 Door Convertibles to be closed cars.

[R Walling]

I don't suppose you want to discuss "Limousine" or Classic" cars. That could take all day.

[alsancle]

Auburn and Cord's use of "Phaeton" was a good example of manufacturer misuse.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

5 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

The word coupe is related to the French word for cut, more specifically from 'carrosse coupe' a 'cut off carriage'.  Even though a coupe traditionally has two doors there is nothing in the definition of the word coupe to suggest it necessarily should.   -   http://www.dictionary.com/browse/coupe?s=t

I agree with you in that I think that someone could technically say that some particular four door car is a coupe, but that really differs from common usage. I think that most car guys would agree that it is customary to use the term "close coupled" to describe a sedan with a closely spaced seating arrangement.

 

"Close coupled sedan" Google Image search:

https://www.google.com/search?q=close+coupled+sedan&biw=1280&bih=609&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiOiq6dnLnNAhVC6yYKHZ4TBMYQsAQIKg

[Hudsy Wudsy]

2 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

In 1932 Packard offered a Coupe Sedan (5 passenger)  as well as a Coupe Roadster (with roll up windows)

Coupe, landau, phaeton, cabriolet and no doubt many others words were remnants of the prior horse drawn carriage age. It's interesting that Packard had not yet adopted the word "cabriolet" by '32 to describe their roadster with roll down windows. Packard would go on to make many fine close coupled sedans and, also, club sedans in a couple of years. I've used the term "close coupled" sedan several times by now, but I can't say for a certainty that manufacturers used it in their marketing language. I use it in a generic sense to describe the nature of their seating arrangements. Coupe sedan and club sedan may have been the preferred terms, I simply don't know.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[keiser31]

Slightly related: When I was about 15 years old, there was an ad for British cars in a magazine. They called the Triumph Spitfire and the MGB, "roadsters". Well, I disagreed and sent them a letter explaining the differences between a roadster and a convertible. You know....snap-on side curtains instead of roll-up windows and a couple of other points. The car company wrote me a letter (I still have it) explaining to me that Webster's definitions of a roadster and a convertible both fit their cars. I was not going to argue. After all....I was only 15 and a car company actually took the time to read my letter and actually respond to it! I was amazed that they even took the time for me.

[poci1957]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Precision of language is not just going out the window with relation to cars, it is eroding everywhere in society.

 

Unfortunate and true, but the old car world seems to see more than our share.  I have become more forgiving of incorrect definitions just because it would make me crazy otherwise and I have determined after our many "classic vs. Classic" threads that no one is interested in learning or accepting correct terminology.  Coupe and other body style definitions have been somewhat fluid for automakers anyway as HudsyWudsy and Keiser noted--was my parents' 1975 Lincoln Continental Town Coupe a Coupe or a 2dr sedan?  Both I guess.  I agree it has been overused recently on the 4dr coupes, I guess the difference is only clear in a 1940s line that included both a coupe with a short roof and longer deck and a 2dr sedan with a sedan roof and rear deck.  Whew!

 

My newer peeve is with idiotic ad references to RARE features and blatantly ignorant ad descriptions.  I recently noted an ad for a 1950s Pontiac highlighting the RARE TRUNK LIGHT that was used by Pontiac on tens of thousands of cars every year for 10-15 years.  Correcting this type of hype is probably more thankless than fighting someone on why an AMC Gremlin is not "classic", Todd C

 

[LINC400]

It might be able to be argued differently for prewar cars, but for postwar, I would say any 2 door hardtop or business coupe would qualify as a coupe. As well as frameless door cars such as new Mustangs, Camaros, and 1970's Lincoln Town Coupes. I would use 2 door sedan to describe a regular 2 door post car, but would not have too much of a problem if it were called a coupe. However calling a new 4 door sedan or SUV a coupe, especially when done by the manufacturer, is just stupid.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, poci1957 said:

 

 

My newer peeve is with idiotic ad references to RARE features and blatantly ignorant ad descriptions.  I recently noted an ad for a 1950s Pontiac highlighting the RARE TRUNK LIGHT that was used by Pontiac on tens of thousands of cars every year for 10-15 years.  Correcting this type of hype is probably more thankless than fighting someone on why an AMC Gremlin is not "classic", Todd C

 

 

There isn't a more misused word in for sale advertising than "Rare".

[46 woodie]

The dictionary states "Coupe, a car with a fixed roof and two doors". Some 21 year old designer at BMW probably has no idea of the definition.

[1912Staver]

In my opinion Victoria "coupes" were splitting hairs between a true coupe and a 2 door sedan. No one ever seems to question a Victoria's claim to coupe status. The Cadillac in the sales brochure seen in the above posts appears to be a Victoria .

Greg in Canada

[Restorer32]

We rewooded a '49 Bentley James Young bodied Sedanca Coupe' which is a car with a back seat and a roof that opens half way. Apparently there are no universally accepted definitions of any of these terms, and never was.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Dave Mellor NJ said:

I totally agree with youse guys about the seeming lack of importance felt by these car makers to correctly label their products.It's along the same line as reported MPG ratings. .

I agree with the first part of your statement. The ones that abused the terminology from the beginning was the manufacturers themselves. Go back and looks at adds for 30's 40's 50's cars and see for yourself.

The MPG ratings were certainly no lie. EPA emission testing certification also included the MPG ratings. Like anything related to the operation of the car it all boils down to the driver. One driver could easily pass a certification test while another could fail  the same test. That's why testing is done under a very controlled environment. The numbers are real though. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

4 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

The dictionary states "Coupe, a car with a fixed roof and two doors". Some 21 year old designer at BMW probably has no idea of the definition.

I took a little exception to that definition in that I think it's a bit simplistic, so I went to Merriam Webster:   "usually coupe :  a 2-door automobile often seating only two persons; also :  one with a tight-spaced rear seat — compare sedan."

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coupe

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Yeah, the overuse of the word "rare" is just ridiculous. People seem to think that they are master marketers when they create their ads. There was a time when guys didn't find it necessary to embellish their descriptions so. Like the man in my original post describing the rarity of his car. Why does he feel he has to be so effusive about a crummy $700 Olds? I'd rather not do business with someone who demeans my intelligence. BTW, I occasionally come across ads that substitute the word "scarce" for rare. It sounds odd to me, but maybe that's colloquial to some part of the country.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I consider "scarce" to be equivalent to uncommon. Something you might run across once a year or so. Rare on the other hand in car terms at least should denote something that is truly very few in number say less than 100 known examples. A car for example that you will never see locally and that you will probably have to travel to view if one is offered for sale.  32 Ford roadsters are scarce, T head Mercer's are rare.

Greg in Canada

 

[Guest]

 Exploring the topic and seeing how things get out of hand by a manufacturer consider the hardtop coupe or pillarless coupe. In 1949 three GM divisions introduce the hardtop coupe. Cadillac / Coupe de Ville, Buick / Riviera, And Oldsmobile / Holiday. The next year 1950,  Pontiac / Catalina, and Chevrolet BelAir. Only the Cadillac stuck by it's roots longest but changed in the downsizing in the 1977 model year when there were no more hardtops. Chevrolet on the other hand began calling the Bel Air a high end series of cars I think from 1953 onward and no longer depicting a hard top. Every hardtop Pontiac made from 1950 to 1958 whether or not it was a high end model like a StarChief or a 860 or 870 model still referred to it's hardtop as a Catalina. From  1959 the Chieftain and SuperChief name disappeared and Catalina became a series of cars like Chevrolet did with BelAir. Buick did the same thing when it's hardtop name became a series in 1963 called the Riviera. Oldsmobile  didn't use it' s hardtop name  of Holiday for a series of car for obvious reasons.

 In 1955 Oldsmobile and Buick introduced the four door hardtop, in 1956 Cadillac , Pontiac and Chevrolet followed.  In advertisements these cars were depicted as hardtops and sedans! but they are pillarless hardtops

Really, it's not the guys that are selling the cars but the manufacturers who confused the terminology.

Edited June 21, 2016 by helfen (see edit history)

[LINC400]

I don't think model names have anything to do with the definition of a coupe. Many manufacturers used a name for one high end or specialty model that later was used for an entire range of cars, or moved the name downmarket until it became the bottom of the line model.

[Joe in Canada]

2 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

The dictionary states "Coupe, a car with a fixed roof and two doors". Some 21 year old designer at BMW probably has no idea of the definition.

So much for the dictionary's definition for a coupe. I do not believe that the auto industry ever had a set of rules on car body classification / name.  

[poci1957]

1 hour ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

Yeah, the overuse of the word "rare" is just ridiculous. People seem to think that they are master marketers when they create their ads. There was a time when guys didn't find it necessary to embellish their descriptions so.

 

Speaking of embellishing I recently saw this ad apparently from a dealer for a ratty 1957 Pontiac:  

 

1957 Pontiac Intercontinental (actually Transcontinental) Station Wagon was 1 of only 5 ever built. (1894 built) It was first introduced at the 1957 World's Fair with Cadillac designing the interior (don't think so) and Pontiac tripling the sheet metal on the body (whatever THAT means), this car was considered the safest car for it's time (what??). New stars and emblems, extra rear window, car has very little rust.

 

I love that he is quite sure there were ONLY 5 EVER BUILT even though he does not know the name of the car, you can't make this stuff up, Todd C

[Hudsy Wudsy]

1 hour ago, poci1957 said:

 

Speaking of embellishing I recently saw this ad apparently from a dealer for a ratty 1957 Pontiac:  

 

1957 Pontiac Intercontinental (actually Transcontinental) Station Wagon was 1 of only 5 ever built. (1894 built) It was first introduced at the 1957 World's Fair with Cadillac designing the interior (don't think so) and Pontiac tripling the sheet metal on the body (whatever THAT means), this car was considered the safest car for it's time (what??). New stars and emblems, extra rear window, car has very little rust.

 

I love that he is quite sure there were ONLY 5 EVER BUILT even though he does not know the name of the car, you can't make this stuff up, Todd C

I see this constantly! I used the word "embellish", but I'm  far too polite. The BS is neck deep out there. I guess that you've struck upon what really angers me the most. Those who make up crap and expect a person to believe it just because they sound authoritative about their "facts". As I said earlier, I have a great deal of difficulty dealing with an dimwit who is positive that he has far more knowledge than me.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[poci1957]

2 minutes ago, Hudsy Wudsy said:

I see this constantly! I used the word "embellish", but I'm  far too polite. The BS is neck deep out there. I guess that you've struck upon what really angers me the most. Those who make up crap and expect a person to believe it just because they sound authoritative about there "facts". As I said earlier, I have a great deal of difficulty dealing with an dimwit who is positive that he has far more knowledge than me.

 

Amen brother, could not have said it better.  I have to give this one bonus points for originality though, this is the first time I have heard of "tripling the sheet metal on the body."  I guess I am impressed, any idea what that is supposed to mean? 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I consider "scarce" to be equivalent to uncommon. Something you might run across once a year or so. Rare on the other hand in car terms at least should denote something that is truly very few in number say less than 100 known examples. A car for example that you will never see locally and that you will probably have to travel to view if one is offered for sale.  32 Ford roadsters are scarce, T head Mercer's are rare.

Greg in Canada

 

I agree with you, Greg. "Scarce as hen's teeth", is what my father used to say. Still, I see it often enough that I have to guess that somewhere it's used more commonly, as you or I would say "rare". I'll have to pay more attention to what region I find it in regular use.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I just found myself smiling a bit to myself about how things have changed over my lifetime. In this case, classified ads. For decades, the only way to advertise a car, or anything else, for sale was to run an ad in the local newspaper. Descriptions where far less flowery when you had to pay by the line. Don't get me wrong, Craigslist is wonderful and I'd never want to back to the old way. It's just that when it's free, people will  blather on and on.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Forgive for hogging my own thread, but just in case the idea of "close coupled" sedan struck anyone as strange, I thought I'd share some pictures of a Packard Club Sedan that's currently on my local Craigslist. With there blind back quarters, I think that they are some of the sexiest cars of the thirties. I have no idea what it's worth, as it's out of my price range.

 

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/hnp/cto/5636541629.html