Hard Starting Studebaker

[olympic]

Our 49 Stude Commander continues to be a hard starter.  The starter motor has been rebuilt twice. It has a new battery, new 6 volt cables. It almost seems that the 6 cylinder engine has too much compression for the 6 volt battery. Has anyone experienced something like this? Do I need an 8 volt battery? DP

[trimacar]

Have you run the ground cable to a starter mounting bolt? Expecting a good ground through an old frame that probably has poor metal to metal contact is iffy.

I did this on my Pierce and it mad all the difference in starter performance ....

[Marty Roth]

Check the ignition timing advance.

Use 000 cables.

Do like trimacar said (above) per ground to starter bolt.

Run a heavy ground from battery to engine and from engine to chassis and to body

If your stuff is right, this car does NOT need 8 Volts, and certainly NOT 12 Volts

[Guest AlCapone]

I also used triple ought welding cable and it solved my problems. I also did the two grounds. Difference between night and day! Wayne

[olympic]

I'll try all of these suggestions today.

[Guest Rp1967]

Have the armature and field of this starter been tested.

Or have the rebuilds just been bearings and brushes.

Had a bad armature on a starter for an old Pontiac cause it to turn slow and draw high.

[60FlatTop]

My first thought was with Marty, check the timing. "Feels like too much compression" sure sounds like too much advance. Make sure the plate for the points is free and the mechanical fly weights aren't sticking.

 

Did the same person rebuild the starter both times?

 

Bernie

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

Check the ignition timing advance.

Use 000 cables.

Do like trimacar said (above) per ground to starter bolt.

Run a heavy ground from battery to engine and from engine to chassis and to body

If your stuff is right, this car does NOT need 8 Volts, and certainly NOT 12 Volts

Good tips !!

Adjusted timing was the solution to my hard starting problem

 

Six volts worked fine in '49 ,

Six volts Should be keen in '15

Edited September 27, 2015 by JamesBulldogMiller55Buick (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

You don't say it, but you think the starter is turning too slowly? Maybe...

 

My Studebaker has zinc plated brass terminals on steel bolts with steel washers and nuts in the ignition circuit. Every connection is a wee galvanic cell. The zinc corrodes, then the steel and zinc and iron oxide don't conduct well. So I had 2 Volts at the coil and it was a pain to get started. Cleaned up all the connections and it went to 6V and it started easily. You could re-tin all the brass connectors to protect the steel.

[JACK M]

I had an old Studebaker once that refused to run on Champion spark plugs.

They say that the Champions are better now, but that flathead absolutely would not run until I replaced the plugs with some Autolites.

I even towed the stupid thing around the neighbor hood for miles, WOULD NOT RUN !!!!

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

I had an old Studebaker once that refused to run on Champion spark plugs.

They say that the Champions are better now, but that flathead absolutely would not run until I replaced the plugs with some Autolites.

I even towed the stupid thing around the neighbor hood for miles, WOULD NOT RUN !!!!

 

 

  An educated Studebaker? Mine was too dumb to know the difference. LOL

 

  Ben

[JACK M]

I guess I had a stubborn one. Drove me nuts.

[Marty Roth]

My '51 Studebaker Champion Starlight Coupe was very dependable and required almost no maintenance - but just wasn't an inspiring ride...

The '49 red Pontiac convertible was a better choice for a High School Senior (and all of his dates). This one drove home from Elberon to Linden, NJ one cold night, and we couldn't figure how it ran since most of the tab above the distributor's rotor button was missing  ---  just not finicky??

[rocketraider]

I had an old Studebaker once that refused to run on Champion spark plugs.

 

Was the Studie a Champion?

 

Can't say too much- I have an Oldsmobile that considers Bosch platinum plugs to be bosh.

[olympic]

The saga of the stubborn Stude.  First, thanks to all who responded. We checked ignition timing and it was dead on. We ran ground cables to starter bolt and grounded engine. Still extremely slow cranking.  The starter was rebuilt by different people.  We checked voltage across the battery posts, 6.29 volts. We checked the specific gravity of the electrolyte. Full charge. Finally, yesterday, we ran a load test on the battery, 375 cranking amps, the tester even said "change battery".  So, pulled old battery out and went up to the local NAPA. Got a new battery, cranking test showed 675 amps.  Put in the Stude, VOILA, cranks over like mad and starts right up. Now the old battery wasn't even 3 years old and has been maintained with battery tenders.  Go figure.  Thanks again for all the advice Dave

[JACK M]

Was the Studie a Champion?

 

Can't say too much- I have an Oldsmobile that considers Bosch platinum plugs to be bosh.

 

Yes a Champion, it must have not liked other Champions I guess.

[JACK M]

The saga of the stubborn Stude.  First, thanks to all who responded. We checked ignition timing and it was dead on. We ran ground cables to starter bolt and grounded engine. Still extremely slow cranking.  The starter was rebuilt by different people.  We checked voltage across the battery posts, 6.29 volts. We checked the specific gravity of the electrolyte. Full charge. Finally, yesterday, we ran a load test on the battery, 375 cranking amps, the tester even said "change battery".  So, pulled old battery out and went up to the local NAPA. Got a new battery, cranking test showed 675 amps.  Put in the Stude, VOILA, cranks over like mad and starts right up. Now the old battery wasn't even 3 years old and has been maintained with battery tenders.  Go figure.  Thanks again for all the advice Dave

 

I bought two new Optima blue tops for my motor home at the beginning of last season, worked fine all summer. Put a tender on it for the winter and it ruined the new batteries. Since I had to go thru the original place of purchase and these were bought on line I ate the loss and bought an other pair of batteries only one year later. I bought the new ones at Autozone. At least if they give me trouble I can lean on them.

I have used Optimas forever and this is the only time I have had problems. This year I am going to unhook them and only put the tender on for a couple of days a month. (not Optimas by the way).

[vermontboy]

I've always just removed the battery and set it on a workbench for the winter. If it was going to hit 20 below for a few days I would check the charge - it was always OK. Put the battery in come spring and it would always start. Never put a battery on a concrete floor. No trickle chargers - I think they are highly over rated.

[Stude Light]

I'm not a battery tender fan either. When I've used them my batteries only go half life. I like the thumb wheel disconnects, removing a cable or removing the battery when not in use for long periods. This method has worked in my cars, tractors, RV, golf cart, lawn mowers, etc.

Oh, just to be clear, tenders and trickle chargers are not the same but my luck with either has been.

Scott

[olympic]

We had nothing but troubles with the thumb wheel disconnects. I finally removed them from all the cars and threw them away.  Now, if the car is going to be sitting for a bit, I remove a cable.  This is especially easy if the battery is under the hood, a little more difficult when the battery is under the seat or floorboards. Dave

[D Yaros]

Interesting re:  Battery Tender:

 

I have used on on my car every winter, all winter, since 2005 and am still running the same battery without incident.

[rocketraider]

I had good results with Battery Tenders too- I had a four-port that kept four batteries charged and conditioned for nearly ten years. One repro Group 60k, one NOS Delco R89 Energizer, and two modern Delcos.

 

Lightning got the BT a couple summers ago, and when I got a replacement I realized those batteries had done what they came to do so I never connected them to it. But I'm convinced Battery Tenders work.

[danleblanc]

I bought two new Optima blue tops for my motor home at the beginning of last season, worked fine all summer. Put a tender on it for the winter and it ruined the new batteries. Since I had to go thru the original place of purchase and these were bought on line I ate the loss and bought an other pair of batteries only one year later. I bought the new ones at Autozone. At least if they give me trouble I can lean on them.

I have used Optimas forever and this is the only time I have had problems. This year I am going to unhook them and only put the tender on for a couple of days a month. (not Optimas by the way).

 

Optima batteries are AGM (absorbed glass mat) and are sealed.  Any battery, while charging, gives off gasses.  Because the battery is a sealed battery and the gasses cannot vent into the atmosphere, there is a valve inside the battery that returns the gasses back into the electrolyte.  AGM batteries need an AGM battery charger, or, a battery tender designed for an AGM battery.  A controlled charging rate from a battery charger is crucial when charging an AGM battery as a conventional charger, or one not designed for use on an AGM battery will effectively destroy the valve inside of the battery rendering the battery useless.

 

In my time working for Exide, charging stock batteries was routine practice.  We had a designated charging room with a few chargers set up that we could charge nearly a full pallet of batteries hooked in series from one charger (so basically we could have 100 batteries on charge at any given time).  We also had chargers that were for AGM batteries only for that specific reason.

 

Heat is what drains the charge from batteries.  We would charge batteries more often in the warehouse during the winter.

 

Disconnect a fully charged battery at the end of the season, keep it cool for the winter months, and it will still be nearly fully charged for use in the spring.

Edited October 1, 2015 by danleblanc (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Optima batteries are AGM (absorbed glass mat) and are sealed.  Any battery, while charging, gives off gasses.  Because the battery is a sealed battery and the gasses cannot vent into the atmosphere, there is a valve inside the battery that returns the gasses back into the electrolyte.  AGM batteries need an AGM battery charger, or, a battery tender designed for an AGM battery.  A controlled charging rate from a battery charger is crucial when charging an AGM battery as a conventional charger, or one not designed for use on an AGM battery will effectively destroy the valve inside of the battery rendering the battery useless.

 

In my time working for Exide, charging stock batteries was routine practice.  We had a designated charging room with a few chargers set up that we could charge nearly a full pallet of batteries hooked in series from one charger (so basically we could have 100 batteries on charge at any given time).  We also had chargers that were for AGM batteries only for that specific reason.

 

Heat is what drains the charge from batteries.  We would charge batteries more often in the warehouse during the winter.

 

Disconnect a fully charged battery at the end of the season, keep it cool for the winter months, and it will still be nearly fully charged for use in the spring.

 

 

Yea, Lesson learned. The problem here is that I wanted the refrigerator to be running on 110 as I keep some stuff in there year round.

The coach has built in chargers that switch between the three banks of batteries whenever there is 110 volts present.

Truck batteries, house 12 volt and inverter batteries. for a total of 10 batteries to deal with. might only be 8 I forget, but when I bought the thing several years ago I replaced all but the truck batteries which are the subject batteries here. It sometimes costs a bit to have fun. All worth it as far as I am concerned. Just don't care for the hassle.

[danleblanc]

It's a good plan to keep the fridge running year round. Worst thing you can do for an absorbtion fridge is to let them sit.

[JACK M]

The coach is an 03.

I have to surmise that the inverter/charger/float system is not compatible with the Optima batteries.

I replaceed them with regular old lead acid batteries.

There are a couple of disconnects built in that I need to study when I lay it up for thins winter. I may be able to keep the fridge running and not fry my batteries again.

At minimum I can access it from the outside and plug it in directly to an extension cord and leave everything else off.

 

To many things around here to maintain,

[olympic]

It's a new year and the 49 Studebaker Commander continues to befuddle us with the hard starting problem.  Just a week ago, I decided to drive down to the local CITGO station and put in some petrol.  The Stude started, slowly, and I motored down to the station. When I got ready to leave it was a different story. The starter gave a grunt and that was it. Fortunately, the station is on a slight slope, so I got the car moving and popped the clutch and came home.  After that, I put the battery on a tender for 4 days.  Today, checked voltage, specific gravity etc and everything seems fine.   Tried starting the engine, grinds slowly, but finally starts.  As I stated before the starter has been rebuilt twice, the timing of the engine has been checked, the new battery is rated at over 800 amps, the battery cables are proper 6 volt, all connections are clean.  Tonight, in the garage, grandson and I took out all 6 spark plugs and tried cranking the engine, engine cranked over fine.  We tried measuring the compression but my gauge is not good. We put the 6 spark plugs back in and the engine would not turn over. I cannot believe that the compression of a 6 cylinder Studebaker could be so great as to overcome the starter. I'm looking for another starter but that source seems to have dried up.  Any new thoughts would really be appreciated. The Stude is the only car in the fleet with this problem, the Ford, Franklins and Hudson start right up every time.  Frustrated Dave 

[cahartley]

Try this to rule out early timing once and for all.

Remove the spark plug wires (and ground them) or remove a coil wire and crank it over.

If it then cranks under full compression you'll have a real good idea where the trouble lies.

[Dandy Dave]

Are you sure your Battery cables are good? Are they old or new? If theres a bad spot where one is heating up/ shorted this will cause your problem. Tractor Supply has Heavy Diesel Tractor Duty cables right on the shelf in different lengths. I would replace both cables and then give it a try. Dandy Dave!   

[vermontboy]

"I would replace both cables and then give it a try. Dandy Dave! "

 

That has always proved to be my problem after trying everything else. Make sure to clean rust from all ground connections.
 

[Stude Light]

"I would replace both cables and then give it a try. Dandy Dave! "

That has always proved to be my problem after trying everything else. Make sure to clean rust from all ground connections.

[Stude Light]

That includes the ground path from the starter to the engine and, the often overlooked path, from the engine to the frame. You can check this by using one leg of your jumper cables and connect it from the battery ground terminal directly to the starter housing.

Scott

[60FlatTop]

When the timing was checked were all three timing variables tested and verified? You have the crankshaft indicator that is the easy one. Then there is the mechanical advance in the distributor where the action of the flyweights needs to work correctly when they fly out and be sure there retract. Then there is the vacuum advance and you need to be sure the breaker plate moves freely in both directions. If it is sticky on the return it could stay advanced for minutes as it slowly drags back to starting position. That last one can give you those slow grunts on a quick restart. And it will give you the fast start after sitting a day or two.

Bernie

[Spinneyhill]

It seems to me most unlikely advanced timing would cause the starter to just grunt and not turn the engine over at all.

 

The symptoms seem to be starter related. It is slow when cold and almost non-functional when hot. It turns fast when there is no compression.

 

Compression rises when an engine is warm.

 

It seems to me you might have a problem in the starter circuits - battery, connections, armature or field coils. The starter has half power or less available?

 

Back to an early question: what has been done in the starter overhauls? Did they do a load test when it was hot? Could there be an [intermittent] problem in the armature? Are the field coil (etc.) connection wires insulated and not shorting to the body of the starter?

 

What is the battery like? Specific gravity of the fluid? Is there enough fluid?

 

Are the battery cables original to the car? I found mine were corroded near the terminals but the terminals looked good. Of course, you are not connecting through paint.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[padgett]

And the one point I have not seen asked: was the motor spinning on the starter and not firing or was the starter dragging down (two different problems)

[olympic]

The saga of the sick Stude continues.  First, a big thanks to everyone who has responded. To Cahartly, we disconnected the coil wire and tried cranking the engine, still too slow. To Dandy Dave, I think we have determined that the negative battery cable is a possible problem. We bypassed it with a jumper cable and noticed a small improvement. So a trip to Tractor Supply tomorrow.  But I think there is more to the problem, than just the cable.  I think it may be with the field coils and the armature in the starter itself. We had 3 mechanics working on it today. Two, young, talented 25 year olds and me, age and talent not determined.  While we had the plugs out,  young Dave brought his first rate compression tester by. The readings added to my woes, reading from cylinder 1 to 6, they were 75 PSI,60, 70 70 55 and 50.  The Stude manual says they should be close to 105 PSI.  A valve job possible or rings?  I went to try the oil on the rings trick to see if that shows a difference. Old Dave

[Curti]

I highly suspect your problem is grounding. Typical starter motor rebuilds are bushings, new brushes and a bendix, with a fresh coat of shiny black paint. Be sure to remove that black paint off the end of the starter that contacts the bell housing.  I have found that the grounding brushes are riveted to the end plate.  Corrosion builds up in between the rivet and the end plate.  The pictures are my fix to that.  Also, is there paint  on the  bell housing.   Is there an additional grounding strap and the frame?   The battery cables need to be 00 about the size of a nickel.  

[vermontboy]

I have replaced a lot of parts (starters, generators, regulators)  on old cars over the years to no avail because the cables looked good. Replacing all of the cables (including the auxiliary grounding straps) and making sure the connections were good always was the final step and the only one that worked. 00 gauge is the only way to go, If need be a good welding shop can make them up for you but I bought the last set at a NAPA store.

[olympic]

Tried Tractor Supply here in Maryland and they do not have heavy duty diesel tractor battery cables.  Went to Tractor Supply.com and didn't get anywhere with that either.  I guess I'm going to have to get 000 welding cable and make my own.  Dave

[Dandy Dave]

The Tractor Supply store here carries them, or did at least. They are hanging up by the battery section. I have also used them on old 6 volt tractors. May not be enough tractors in your area for them to have them. Dandy Dave!