What's all the hubub about the VW TDI ?

[padgett]

Pontiac did the same thing in 1973 with a timer and no-one (except the gov finally) noticed.

[JFranklin]

It was a lie so they could rob the customers and the taxpayers! Time to buy some of the stock though.

[John348]

It was a lie so they could rob the customers and the taxpayers! Time to buy some of the stock though.

 

The engineers who contrived this are geniuses' ! If I understand this correctly the vehicles ECM detects when it is plugged into a state diagnostic machine, then the ECM puts it in a mode that will produce acceptable emissions, doing all of this while not indicating any trouble codes. Owner benefits from having better power, most likely better MPG, and able to pass emission testing....

 

Yes.....Very correct, a great time to buy VW stock 

[Guest Skyking]

What about all the people in the past that were refused a state inspection sticker for a failed emissions test. I owned a 1987 ElCamino which failed the emissions test which cost me a lot of money to get a sticker. The killer was that the car ran exceptionally well. I feel there are going to be a lot of law suits, more than they expect.

[Guest]

I agree, it's genius. Now that everyone is aware that this technology exists, expect to see black market, programmable ECM's available at a 7-11 parking lot near you.

[joe_padavano]

Back when the Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards were first enacted, every single automaker optimized their cars to maximize mileage on the test.  The real world mileage was much worse than advertised.  The EPA finally changed the test after rounds of complaints.  This is just the same thing. You have to pass the test, nothing more. 

 

The problem this time is the ambulance chasing lawyers who smell multi-million dollar profits from the class action lawsuits.  The lawyers will clean up.  The car owners will get a discount coupon for the purchase of a new car.  Same thing happened after the bogus GM pickup truck gas tank lawsuits.

[Matt Harwood]

Most folks don't realize it, but emissions certification isn't a government thing--they don't test every make and model of car to make sure it passes. The automakers self-certify, essentially guaranteeing the EPA that their cars are legal. This VW situation is what happens when the government finds out they were lying about it.

 

This is not like the old days when your car failed a test and you didn't get an inspection sticker. This was knowingly building cars that didn't pass and using electronic tricks to fool the system that's supposed to check these things. Nobody failed to get a sticker for emissions because the car's operating system was designed to tell testing equipment that the car passed no matter what. What likely was happening is that the VW diesels were pretty anemic in the power department when tuned to correct emissions standards. VW led the charge for personal-use diesels in the US and a vast majority of cars sold in Europe are diesels, so they have a lot invested in building diesels that people actually want to own. I suspect that when tuned to emissions-legal levels, the VW diesel is WAY down on power, making it less of a viable alternative to the gas motors and more of a "why bother" kind of thing, particularly in the US where diesel fuel is often more expensive, sometimes by a lot. Add in the premium they charge for buying a diesel and you can see that they had a lot at stake.

 

What will happen here is that there will be a large fine--which VW will gladly pay--and a whole lot of accusations and political circus. VW 2.0 liter diesels will disappear from the market for 2-3 years until they can make them run properly AND pass emissions tests. I'm almost certain that consumers will be permitted to keep their existing diesels as they are, not de-tuned to emissions-legal levels because the EPA won't want to punish US consumers for something that a Germany company did (imagine getting a recall that kills a bunch of your car's horsepower). I doubt there will be many consumer lawsuits for this reason--if there are no personal damages, there are no grounds for litigation, although I'm sure a few enterprising lawyers will try to sue on the environment's behalf or something like that.

 

VW's CEO has already resigned, eliminating the subsequent blame game and finger-pointing, and there is no cover up after-the-fact. In essence, they've handled it exactly right, all things considered. They saw what happened to GM when GM insisted nothing was wrong with the ignition switches, ignored customer complaints and deaths, then tried to blame an outside contractor, then a single engineer, and then reluctantly took responsibility although nobody resigned or was fired over it. GM got battered from all sides, and perhaps rightfully so. VW will come out smelling like roses and the cult-like following for their diesel automobiles will, if anything, be even more passionate. They got the PR part of this thing exactly right. Nobody's going to jail over this and as one of the world's biggest companies, the fine will be little more than an annoyance for VW.

 

Modern emissions testing relies on the car's internal sensors and OBD-II diagnostics to monitor emissions. When they used to do rolling road testing with a chromatograph sensor stuck up the tailpipe (what we had in Ohio for many years--I worked for the company that built the test equipment for the EPA), this would have been sniffed out almost instantly (no pun intended). However, when you're simply plugging in a scan tool and reading codes and checking for emissions faults using the car's internal sensors and ECM, well, it becomes almost effortless for the engineers to write some code to give false test results. I'm worried that this will force a return to rolling road testing, which frequently resulted in damaged cars (for instance, they tried to test my all-wheel-drive Audi on a 2-wheel-drive test bed and the car kept driving off of it). Worse, I'm concerned that it will lead to a greater crack-down on computer modifications, greater oversight into what equipment goes onto cars, and a whole host of other things that are pretty bad for guys who love cars and the companies that build stuff to service/upgrade/modify today's cars. Not only that, but it may even cut down on the number of shops who can perform certain repairs and will likely require a whole new level of certification for such shops. In short, this is going to make a lot of things more expensive for the consumer, more difficult for independent shops and small businesses, and in general, a real bummer for guys who like to modify their late-model cars, of which there are millions.

 

I think the most interesting thing will be to see what these diesel cars are worth on the secondary market. Not as collector cars, of course, but will they be more valuable because they're more powerful or less valuable because the folks who buy diesels also tend to like the environment and frown on these sorts of shenanigans? Will these cars be "branded" by the public and what will that do to consumer demand? It'll be a great opportunity for a market study to determine why consumers do what they do.

 

I am also going to go out on a limb and speculate that a lot of automakers are scrambling to re-evaluate their 2016 models to double check and even fix potential problems. The code-writers and emissions engineers at all the big automakers are probably working 80-hour weeks right about now. I bet we see quite a few cars hit the market with "revised" horsepower and torque numbers in the next few weeks...

Edited September 26, 2015 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

I know of one politician who could have used that sharp programmer to set up his healthcare data base.

 

Bet he wasn't the low bidder.

Bernie

[Guest]

Will be interesting to see how this unfolds. We know ECM's, sensors, injectors, c. converters, carbon canisters, modules etc. are all produced by suppliers. Will be interesting to get hold of the requirements from the manufacturer to the supplier.

[Marty Roth]

Bottom line --  it is still CHEATING !!

[joe_padavano]

I know of one politician who could have used that sharp programmer to set up his healthcare data base.

 

Bet he wasn't the low bidder.

Bernie

Way to stay on topic... 

[smithbrother]

Matt, Thank You for NOT saying, "you know, you know" a trillion times, hehe

Dale in Indy

[Matt Harwood]

I actually just read another statement suggesting that VW's fine could be $18 billion (with a "B"). Holy cow! That's almost 20 times more than the GM fiasco--in which people died, by the way. Wow.

 

More:

 

The Environmental Protection Agency revealed that VW engineers had intentionally jury-rigged their diesel-powered vehicles to the calculated degree that they "contained software that turns off emissions controls when driving normally and turns them on when the car is undergoing an emissions test," according to Cynthia Giles, an enforcement officer at the EPA. Basically, what VW engineers did is create software that electronically masked the true emissions level of its diesel-powered vehicles during the EPA test in order to pass it, but the real emissions of the vehicles were in fact nearly 40 times the level of pollutants allowed under clean-air rules. [emphasis added]

 

Will VW be able to come back from this? If that fine sticks, it'll be tough, and that could be bad news for the world economy. Once again, is "too big to fail" a real thing? VW is the 14th biggest company in the world...

Edited September 26, 2015 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[smithbrother]

That would just show HOW STUPID SOME GOV OFFICIALS ARE, you know,,,,,IMO

Dale in Indy

Edited September 26, 2015 by smithbrother (see edit history)

[Guest my3buicks]

Had this been Toyota or Honda it would have been glossed over and forgotten.  Kinda the same thing as Toyota's sudden acceleration that was buried quickly

[Rusty_OToole]

VW customers got better running cars that got better mileage and more power. The cost was higher NOS emissions. They put a second program in the computer that ran the low emission settings when being tested. This could involve something as simple as going to test mode when the driver's door is open and the car in gear since that is how they are tested on a dyno.

 

What they did was illegal and they should be punished but an $18 billion fine seems excessive. GM paid way less than that for covering up a defective ignition switch that killed over 100 people. O ya I forgot GM belongs to the government now.

[padgett]

Well diesels are ded anyway. Blown gas engines with direct Injection is the coming thing.

[Vila]

So let me get this right, the VW diesels that get good fuel milage and show no signs of anything coming out the exhaust won't pass the emission test, but those large diesel pickups I see with the twin 10 inch diameter exhaust stacks coming out through the front of the bed just behind the cab and get what 10 MPG and belch out black smoke do.  Interesting.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Vila (see edit history)

[John348]

. O ya I forgot GM belongs to the government now.

 

You might want to check your facts on that, the loan was paid back and the SEC allowed them sell shares again, they are owned by shareholders now

[auburnseeker]

You might want to check your facts on that, the loan was paid back and the SEC allowed them sell shares again, they are owned by shareholders now

Didn't the Govt. lose money on the whole deal? I didn't follow it close enough to know how the true ending came out.  

[Mark Gregory]

Here is a good story explaining exactly what happened with the testing .http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/sep/26/volkswagen-scandal-emissions-tests-john-german-research

[auburnseeker]

So let me get this right, the VW diesels that get good fuel milage and show no signs of anything coming out the exhaust won't pass the emission test, but those large diesel pickups I see with the twin 10 inch diameter exhaust stacks coming out through the front of the bed just behind the cab and get what 10 MPG and belch out black smoke do.  Interesting.

Those large pickups with the stacks wouldn't pass an emissions test.  They have had most if not all of their emissions deleted. If you figure the amount a well tuned (not ridiculous) diesel truck puts out for the amount of cargo it can haul it probably has a better foot print than a gas engine which gets much poorer fuel mileage especially when loaded.  My diesel with a stick  4 Wheel drive with 20 inch wheels, mild towing tune, a few other minor mods, being driven conservatively gets around 19 MPG Highway.  The difference is when it's loaded it doesn't drop much.  The gas engine mileage really drops when loaded.   I've heard of a lot of guys not even getting 10 loaded.  This is on an 06 Powerstroke.  I'm not sure how the more modern gas engines compare to the diesels but there is a reason why the truck guys buy diesels and not gas engines. I see more and more switching to them as well.

I know when you look on line at all the prius drivers complaining about the emissions of diesel trucks few realize it's not viable to own a tiny car when you actually need to move real cargo from point A to point B on any regular basis. Until they make a 1 ton dually prius (and prove it's capability) that has the power of the diesel not much will change. 

Edited September 27, 2015 by auburnseeker (see edit history)

[Guest]

Seems like the never ending quest for mileage and better driveability or is there more?. What was the real reason for this? Were emission expectations possibly so stringent for the future that it was impossible with todays technology to comply so that other measures were taken? Was this a first test bed to see if they could trick the system so that in the future they could pass a possible impossible requirement?  You know on a more personal and closer to us level we see  many repair facilities, dealers and car enthusiast along with this particular manufacturer or one of it's departments do this sort of thing regularly in different ways. Human nature I think. Happens all the time. Right now there are a few owners of smog repair stations and technicians in prison in Ca . for this sort of thing. How many times have you looked at a post 1975 car for sale or a car at a car show that ALL the exhaust emission controls have been removed?  This time a big player got caught.

  In GM's case of nearly going belly up and putting a lot of people out of work and then saved by big government despite the automakers failure in business practices. GM was saved to prevent the calamity so they say. The punishment for VW will have to be considered very carefully for the very same reasons.  

[Larry W]

Didn't the Govt. lose money on the whole deal? I didn't follow it close enough to know how the true ending came out.  

I don't know about GM, but Chrysler paid back its loan ahead of schedule, with interest.  The taxpayers actually made money on the deal.

[Larry W]

 

 

What they did was illegal and they should be punished but an $18 billion fine seems excessive.

If this  $18 billion fine is paid, the burning question I have is "Where does the money go from there?"

 

 

[John348]

If this  $18 billion fine is paid, the burning question I have is "Where does the money go from there?"

 

 

Very good point, who gets paid? I still think it is a great stock to buy

[auburnseeker]

Very good point, who gets paid? I still think it is a great stock to buy

I think we all know where it will end up,  but it will probably get slocked into the general fund and peed away on helping develop more energy efficient cars for third world nations, so while their oil fields are burning they won't be polluting the air so much.

Just look up the number of projects that make you scratch your head. 18 billion is pocket change in today's Govt. 

One day I think we will wake up to having the greenest nation with no jobs, no infrastructure, no industry and the most fuel efficient vehicles on the planet capable of moving only one person at a time with the largest parks that no one is allowed to access because they are forever wild, only to be the laughing stock of the rest of the world while they walk in to take control if they haven't already taken control from within first.

[capngrog]

I think we all know where it will end up,  but it will probably get slocked into the general fund and peed away on helping develop more energy efficient cars for third world nations, so while their oil fields are burning they won't be polluting the air so much.

Just look up the number of projects that make you scratch your head. 18 billion is pocket change in today's Govt. 

One day I think we will wake up to having the greenest nation with no jobs, no infrastructure, no industry and the most fuel efficient vehicles on the planet capable of moving only one person at a time with the largest parks that no one is allowed to access because they are forever wild, only to be the laughing stock of the rest of the world while they walk in to take control if they haven't already taken control from within first.

 

I could not have said it better.  Bravo!

 

Cheers,

Grog

[smithbrother]

The Govt DOESN'T lose anything, they don't have any money, WE THE TAX PAYERS PAY THE BILLS.

 

I like it when they are confronted about paying $2,000.00 for a hammer, they say, " WELL, YES, IT'S A LOT OF MONEY, BUT THE PERSON OR COMPANY RECEIVING THE MONEY WILL SPEND IT, THUS IT'S GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY". 

 

Or when they say, "IT'S JUST $50,000,000.00 WHICH IS  ONLY .001% OF THE TOTAL BUDGET".

 

Dale in Indy

[Larry Schramm]

If this  $18 billion fine is paid, the burning question I have is "Where does the money go from there?"

 

That's an easy answer.  The customer (tax payer) always pays and the government gets more money to throw / waste away.

[60FlatTop]

At least no one has said it was released as a smoke screen for what the EPA did to the Navajo Nation in August.

 

Hmmmmm, smoke screen; interesting term.

Bernie

[Guest Skyking]

We have a chance to change all this in 2017.

[smithbrother]

But, the Govt. will say, IT'S GOOD FOR THE ECONOMY, KEEPS THE MONEY FLOWING, hehe.  I wish some would FLOW my way, how about your way tooooooooo?

 

Dale in Indy  

[60FlatTop]

I was taught that we are the government and THEY are elected officials. Observation has shown THEY are elected through default by the 30% of eligible voters whom stay home and think they don't count.

 

We need to go back to the days of the founders when the leaders of the Minute Men were the ones who bought the most rounds at the tavern.

Bernie

[Guest]

We have a chance to change all this in 2017.

 We do, but half the population are happy with the way things have been going. Once you take over most of the media, unions and the education system you can control the populations minds, that's what Joseph Goebbels said anyway in one of his addresses to the party elite, and I might add one of our current presidential candidates also reiterated those same words in the last presidential cycle 2008 while campaigning. I was astounded hearing that, and almost word for word.

 

No politicking here, no names cited ( other than a past regime ) no need to censure.

[John348]

It would be really great if this conversation could get back on the OP's original question

[60FlatTop]

"Really great" never had anything about VW's or diesels to me.

 

I di like cars over 25 years old, though.

B

[DAVES89]

I think VW should buy back every single car in violation at full retail from the current buyer and then have them crushed.. The current owners are the "injured" party. The government would only divert the fine money to some cause other then what was already damaged by the faulty emmissions.

[capngrog]

I think VW should buy back every single car in violation at full retail from the current buyer and then have them crushed.. The current owners are the "injured" party. The government would only divert the fine money to some cause other then what was already damaged by the faulty emmissions.

 

Dave,

 

I think you're on to something here.  Instead of 'fining' VW, VW would be forced to buy back the dirty, environment-defiling cars from mislead owners, then VW could sell the cars to China and/or India where emissions are apparently of little or no concern.

 

Everybody wins ... sorta.

 

Just sayin',

Grog

[auburnseeker]

Dave,

 

I think you're on to something here.  Instead of 'fining' VW, VW would be forced to buy back the dirty, environment-defiling cars from mislead owners, then VW could sell the cars to China and/or India where emissions are apparently of little or no concern.

 

Everybody wins ... sorta.

 

Just sayin',

Grog

That's the way to think.  We'll punish them.

 

A couple years later.......

 

Ok maybe that didn't work like we planned.  Now they have no emissions systems but we could start a program in one of those countries with a pledge of 300 billiion dollars to help them comply with the 1960's emissions those countries might strive for.  You know that new fangled invention,  the PCV valve.