Need Help Identifying An Odd Riviera

[Guest Korvun]

Hello all,

My family and I have always loved our Rivieras, so when we were asked if we wanted to buy a 1965 Gran Sport for a great price, we jumped at the opportunity!  The owner said it was an oddity of a 65 Rivi, in that it had the front end of a 65 and the rear end of a 64!  We looked at it and assumed it had to be a chop job, but with no welding, bondo or any other tell tale signs of a "custom" we were intrigued.  The price was such that buying it made sense, even if it turned out to be a fake, the engine was worth the buy by itself.  As with any other car, to help identify it, we looked up the vin and it said as much as we already knew.  That it was a 1965 Riviera.  However, every time we tell anyone this, they balk at our claim and even go so far as to be extremely rude and often abusive with their language (Riviera folks are a passionate bunch).  So I turn to you in hopes of identifying where this car may have some from!  Is it a custom job, an early non-production prototype (which is what we suspect), a scrapped prototype for the 66?  Below is a link to an IMGUR album with photos of the car for your viewing pleasure.

 

http://imgur.com/a/x4IMI

 

Edit: Adding pictures to the album

Edited September 14, 2015 by Korvun (see edit history)

[John]

Your car has been discussed in the Riviera section of the forum:  http://forums.aaca.org/topic/261583-fs-1965-riviera-gs-35k-oregon/

[capngrog]

That's a very interesting discussion on the Riviera Forum.  Thanks for posting here, otherwise, I would have been unaware of this most intriguing mystery.  Is it a genuinely rare Riviera, or just a skilled fitment of odd parts?  From reading the posts on the Riviera Forum, warning bells/buzzers are going off throughout what's left of may brane.  Please let us know when you have an answer to this mystery.

 

Be careful,

Grog

[Guest LuxDriver]

Looks like a 64 nosed w a 65

[joe_padavano]

I frankly can't believe this car has generated so many posts.  Obviously the nose has been swapped, likely after front end collision.  Nothing rare or unusual about it. This was not uncommon back in the day.  I've seen lots of 68 Cutlass and 442 cars with 69 front ends, for example.

[MCHinson]

Korvun,

 

Welcome to the AACA Discussion Forum.  

 

I know nothing about this era of Rivieras. Any chance you can post a photo of the Body Data Tag? That would enable those who know these cars to be able to help you.

[John_S_in_Penna]

Obviously the nose has been swapped, likely after front end collision.  Nothing rare or unusual about it. 

 

...Except that the Riviera owners, in the other thread,

observed that the interior is a 1965 also.

 

Our AACA national president has an all-original 1953 Packard

Caribbean convertible that reportedly is a rare 1953-54 transition model.

Its rear continental kit is a 1954 version, and the original seat upholstery

is the 1954 pattern.  Would GM do such a thing in 1964-65?

The Riviera's date of manufacture, determined from the serial # or

data plate--is it very early in the 1965 model year?--

might give clues.

 

Otherwise, could it be that the rear end of a 1964 was swapped

after a rear-end collision?

Edited August 30, 2015 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

...Except that the Riviera owners, in the other thread,

observed that the interior is a 1965 also.

 

Our AACA national president has an all-original 1953 Packard

Caribbean convertible that reportedly is a rare 1953-54 transition model.

Its rear continental kit is a 1954 version, and the original seat upholstery

is the 1954 pattern.  Would GM do such a thing in 1964-65?

The Riviera's date of manufacture, determined from the serial # or

data plate--is it very early in the 1965 model year?--

might give clues.

 

Otherwise, could it be that the rear end of a 1964 was swapped

after a rear-end collision?

 

Obviously SOMETHING was swapped at a date after the car was built.  The VIN will settle the year of the car (assuming THAT wasn't swapped also...).  The rest of it is bolt-on.  My money is still on two cars being put together to make one.  I've done similar things myself - I had a 1965 442 with a 64 nose because I couldn't find a 65 nose at the time (this was the 1970s). 

 

The one thing it ISN'T is some rare factory oddity.  It's a fabricated car.

[Guest AlCapone]

Not what I would want to read about a car I just purchased. Was it misrepresented to you ? Wayne

[Matt Harwood]

I'll bet $5 we're talking to the seller who wrote the ad. $35K for any Riv is hardly a great price that requires jumping at the opportunity. The post up above is a little too breathless about what an amazing find it is...

 

I bought a '76 Eldorado convertible when I was 14 years old as an insurance recovery and put a '75 front clip on it because I couldn't find a '76. Experts knew the difference and always asked me about it because it was a "bitsa." Still a '76 underneath, but with questionable lineage when seen in person. Car was wrecked, I put it back together with whatever I could find. In fact, I would have liked to have found a car with a complementary interior, even from another year, because I never could get the blood stains off the passenger-side headrest. I suspect something similar happened with this Riv--a donor was used to put a damaged car back together.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Guest AlCapone]

I agree with your summation ! Wayne

[Bleach]

A VIN would clear up everything. It does not have to be the entire number, just all the characters before the serial number will suffice.

[capngrog]

I'll bet $5 we're talking to the seller who wrote the ad. $35K for any Riv is hardly a great price that requires jumping at the opportunity. The post up above is a little too breathless about what an amazing find it is...

 

I bought a '76 Eldorado convertible when I was 14 years old as an insurance recovery and put a '75 front clip on it because I couldn't find a '76. Experts knew the difference and always asked me about it because it was a "bitsa." Still a '76 underneath, but with questionable lineage when seen in person. Car was wrecked, I put it back together with whatever I could find. In fact, I would have liked to have found a car with a complementary interior, even from another year, because I never could get the blood stains off the passenger-side headrest. I suspect something similar happened with this Riv--a donor was used to put a damaged car back together.

 

Matt,

 

I agree whole-heartedly!!

 

Cheers,

Grog

[8E45E]

Our AACA national president has an all-original 1953 Packard

Caribbean convertible that reportedly is a rare 1953-54 transition model.

Its rear continental kit is a 1954 version, and the original seat upholstery

is the 1954 pattern.

 

Here's a '66 Studebaker that was special-ordered with 1964-5 wheelcovers (Post #17) http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?75260-My-1966-Daytona

 

Craig

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

Obviously SOMETHING was swapped at a date after the car was built.  The VIN will settle the year of the car (assuming THAT wasn't swapped also...).  The rest of it is bolt-on.  My money is still on two cars being put together to make one.  I've done similar things myself - I had a 1965 442 with a 64 nose because I couldn't find a 65 nose at the time (this was the 1970s). 

 

The one thing it ISN'T is some rare factory oddity.  It's a fabricated car.

My brother wrecked a '67 Dodge Dart. After a few trips to the wrecking yard, I had the '67 Dart on the road with a '68 front clip, '69 tailights, and  deluxe interior from a '74. I didn't even have to paint it. The replacement body parts were the same color 

[Larry W]

I had an older cousin that past along his " little books " to me when he was done with them. He once told me that a lot of the custom cars within those pages started out as totaled out wrecks that were pieced together by body shops as fill in work. The better looking ones appeared in the magazines. The vehicle in question may have come to exist under the same circumstance.

[benjamin j]

I got it one piece at a time and it didn’t cost me a dime.

[Bleach]

If someone would post the vin or at least the first few characters, we would be able to settle this once and for all.

[joe_padavano]

If someone would post the vin or at least the first few characters, we would be able to settle this once and for all.

 

What, you want to use FACTS?  Speculation and hearsay are much more fun that facts.

Of course, you assume the VIN tag wasn't swapped during the reconstruction.

[Bleach]

Well if it was swapped, we'd could then speculate on which half of the car was used.

[Guest Korvun]

I'm sorry it's taken so long to respond. I've been out of town with my father, who posted the car on Craigslist after I made my original post. I am not the seller, I am his son. I'm still out of town, so I don't have the Vin handy, so you'll just have to believe me when I say that we have exhaustingly checked the Vin against every source of information the Internet has to offer and it IS a 65. When I get home, I'll post a photo of the data plate as requested.

We have taken the car to professional mechanics (not rodeo clowns as the other discussion pointed out) and have had the body extensively checked for signs of bondo and welding for any tell tale signs of splicing and found none. The title is clean, with no reported accidents and says it is a 65 as well. Beyond that, I can only stress that I am not trying to mislead anyone, my family and I are simply interested in properly identifying the car. As such, it is no longer listed. The amount of hate filled and abusive emails we've received since it's posting as warranted as much.

I do want to thank you for your replies to this. The users posting in this thread have been nothing but civil. The other thread, which I read before this one, honestly made me regret my decision to seek help.

[Guest Korvun]

The Data Plate IS missing, at least, if I'm looking in the right place (firewall, top corner driver's side). There are two holes where I think it should be, they look like rivet holes, but theres no outline or any indication that there was anything there, maybe it was painted over after it was removed, but I'm not sure.  The Vin plate is still in the door frame, though.

 

I do have the other requested numbers; Intake Mani: 1370316B  L/2, Eng #: 5H914717, Prod Code: L   WX244, Exhaust Mani: 1196914, Partial Vin: 494475H######

 

I put generous spacing on Prod Code because thats how it looked on the engine and the L/2 was UNDER the intake number.

 

If it's a frankencar, which it's looking like it may be, that's fine because it really is one hell of a good looking car.  Hopefully some of this may help in identifying a bit more about the car.

[8E45E]

The only possibility is a GM 'higher-up' specially commissioned it like that.  A consumer definitely would not have the choice of an earlier-year body panel affixed to a new car going down the production line (the only exception was Cadillac with paint colors where one could order a previous year's color. So if you see a Mountain Laurel '71, it could be factory!)  A GM executive order this '65 Chevrolet in Post #14 here --> http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?42516-Rolls-Royce-is-sold-out&highlight=orchid  with a few options that were not normally available on the 1965 Chev line, including power vent windows, which this particular car is equipped with.

 

Craig

[cjp69]

can you post a picture of the engine production code stamping "Prod Code: L   WX244"

 

Also, does the engine VIN match the car VIN?

[Guest Korvun]

can you post a picture of the engine production code stamping "Prod Code: L   WX244"

 

Also, does the engine VIN match the car VIN?

 

I can, but I'm not sure why having a picture of what I've told you would do for you.  My Dad has the car right now, so I'll get back with you for the picture and the engine vin.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Korvun (see edit history)

[cjp69]

I can, but I'm not sure why having a picture of what I've told you would do for you.  My Dad has the car right now, so I'll get back with you for the picture and the engine vin.

 

Please see attached photo.  Typically, the engine would have a two letter code, LW or LX, (MT in the picture).  You have indicated three letters, so I am curious as to how they appear.

 

The vin location is also in the picture I have attached.  You noted the engine VIN, but not the car VIN, which is why I asked if you could confirm if they match. 

nailhead engine code.bmp

[Guest Korvun]

Please see attached photo.  Typically, the engine would have a two letter code, LW or LX, (MT in the picture).  You have indicated three letters, so I am curious as to how they appear.

 

The vin location is also in the picture I have attached.  You noted the engine VIN, but not the car VIN, which is why I asked if you could confirm if they match. 

 

Okay, I've added two pictures to the album, the last two are the ones you requested.  There are two, because the engine bits get in the way of a clear picture, but you can clearly make out the L and most of the W in the first picture and the rest of the number in the second.

 

I misunderstood what you said, yes, the vins match.  I've just been told time and again not to give your entire vin, but at this point, I just don't care, lol.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Korvun (see edit history)

[61polara]

Korvun,

I think it is time for you to contact the GM Heritage Center and ask for research on the car including the build sheet.  This should clear up a lot for you.

[Guest AlCapone]

Korvun,

I think it is time for you to contact the GM Heritage Center and ask for research on the car including the build sheet.  This should clear up a lot for you.

Very sound advice! I am surprised that was not the first step in the process. Wayne

[Highlander160]

I'd bet a cup of coffee it was clipped. It may take some disassembling of select areas to detect, but there were some really good "clippers" back in the day. Remove the "A" pillar trim, should be easy enough to do. Follow the floor from below, look for the meeting joint of the front (cowl/windshield/tunnel) section of the body to the rear. Along the rocker panels inside (should be easy, "X" frame car, right?) there's a lap joint as well. If there's unmolested Rivieras to compare you'll find everything you're looking for. As a GS it would have been worth saving back in the day, even at perhaps 10yrs old or more. It could also have been done by an independent "fixer" in his own gig after hours, content to mix n match what was easy or affordable availability. Having no clock to punch or boss checking his shirt size, the work could be stellar whether it was right or wrong. Is it kool? Sure, might be a real GS. Is it worth a bunch? Maybe not as much as the real thing, not even close, because some liberties were taken during preservation. I happen to be a 43+ year expert in many phases of restoration, fabrication, and even product development. I've seen some really nice cars that were simply as wrong as can be from a technical perspective only. The missing data tag as posted above is a tell. Personally I prefer the 65 in every way over the 63-4. Cleaner, "faster" looking, headlight clam shells, etc. I don't see it as having all the "best of" styling features offered on those as I prefer the lights in the bumper and the side scoops gone. Surely I'm not alone in that regard. Good luck in your archaeology of this car and embrace the challenge of sorting it out. And just for the record, none of this response, candid as it may seem, is meant to denigrate you or what you have. These things pop up all the time and like Matt said above, many of these old cars have the seasoning of a "chequered past" and sometimes there's no telling what someone did. 

[60FlatTop]

It may have been one of the Riviera Fongula's built the upscale Italian market by Ghia. One is reported to have been imported back to the US by the Italian engineer, Count BiTuse who designed Cadillac's 4-6-8 engine in 1981.

 

Documentation is hard to come by on that one.

Bernie

[alsancle]

I wonder how many people on here know Italian?

[Guest bkazmer]

Enough.  But that's dialect anyway.

[Bleach]

I understood the first part but you lost me on the "Count".

[60FlatTop]

I understood the first part but you lost me on the "Count".

Read that part out loud.

B

[Bleach]

[JamesBulldogMiller55Buick]

I wonder how many people on here know Italian?

Non  parlo Italiano

[padgett]

Thought I replied earlier but a '64 had a Dynaflow transmission and the '65 a THM 400. BIG difference. Also many things including the radio and axle would be date coded. I suspect the crossmember is also different.

 

ps to me the 65 was the way it should have looked from the beginning (before the ugly stylist got ahold of it - in those days Buick styling went in three year cycles and the last was always the best - 63-65 Riv is one example, 68-70 Skylark is another.)

[John]

Thought I replied earlier but a '64 had a Dynaflow transmission and the '65 a THM 400. BIG difference. Also many things including the radio and axle would be date coded. I suspect the crossmember is also different.

 

ps to me the 65 was the way it should have looked from the beginning (before the ugly stylist got ahold of it - in those days Buick styling went in three year cycles and the last was always the best - 63-65 Riv is one example, 68-70 Skylark is another.)

63 was the last dynaflow; 64 was a one year only 400

[Guest Korvun]

Update:  I've tried to contact the GM Heritage Center few times by email, no reply so far.  As I said, the firewall dataplate is missing, but what I did'nt know until my Dad thought about it and brought to my attention was the original owner protection plan booklet, with sales information, original owner and the identification plate they used to come with glued inside the back cover. The info on it is below.

 

Now I know a lot of the information, like vin, engine code, etc, but some I don't know and hopefully somebody here does.

 

X-244, Vin (already given and matches)

T-370, FB 80794

RR 608 Z

C60 A31 K30 U68

 

According to the info in the booklet, the car was delivered to the owner on January 27th, 1965 in Medford Oregon, not far from where my Dad purchased it.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Korvun (see edit history)