Circa 1915 Auto identification?

[Guest derekl]

Hi,

This is a photograph in the City of Vancouver (Canada) archives. I'd like to identify the car, if possible.

Note the scoop between the front and the rear seats.

The hub-cap seems to read Hock.

The Hood Ornament is possibly custom, as many at that time were, it looks like a man with a moustache, wearing a jacket with a star on his upper left chest and maybe on his cap too.

Any info much appreciated,

Derek

[Rusty_OToole]

Looks like a comic traffic cop mascot and Houk wire wheels. Both were popular accessories at the time. I would date the car 1920 or 21. It looks brand new.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Guest derekl]

Yes, of course, that's a comic traffic cop. I'm pretty sure the car is new, the photographer did other car shots.

Thank you, Rusty

[nzcarnerd]

This pic has been seen somewhere else (can't remember where) and so far has not been identified. I reckon from the style of the fenders and lights the date is mid to late teens. I wonder if it might be a REO.

[Rusty_OToole]

The distinctive slanted hood louvers and rounded hood and radiator resemble McFarlan but the McFarlan was a much larger car.

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/m/mcfarlan/mcfarlan.htm

[jeff_a]

It looks a little like a 1917 Paige Detroit, but wasn't able to find a picture of a touring body just like it. It almost looks like President Wilson in the passenger seat.

Some Appersons & Nationals had hood louvers like this car, and some Crane-Simplex radiator shells were very close to the one pictured.

Edited December 30, 2014 by jeff_a
A couple more guesses. (see edit history)

[sambarn]

It does look like Wilson!. Also - is that Vancouver? Crane was located in Chicago. #3 Houk wire wheels - yes and #4 -after market mascot

[TheMoneyPit]

The "chummey" or clover leaf roadster bodies come to mind - Studebaker late teens???

[bhambulldog]

The hood ornament looks like Sluggo of Mr. Bill fame

not that will help ID the car .....

just saying..

[cahartley]

Here's a crop better showing the radiator ornament. hubcap (HOUK) and occupants.

[Guest derekl]

I wonder if it might be a REO.

You may well be correct. The same photographer photographed a few REOs here in Vancouver.

Here's one image:

http://searcharchives.vancouver.ca/uploads/r/null/1/3/1324914/cd1438fc-cd30-4615-ad61-6146ae97f9a7-A17907.jpg

[nzcarnerd]

The reason I thought REO was the slight lean-forward of the top tank of the radiator.

[Dave Henderson]

The dual cowl is unusual for a touring car, the sophisticated styling and wire wheels lead me to think this is a higher price car of the ilk of perhaps Cunningham, Daniels, Marmon, Mercer, or White, albeit perhaps too small.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Dave Henderson (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

Even though I don't think this is a factory body the regular REOs of this era had that 'dual cowl' style - http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_171697-Dodge-Brothers-Sedan-1917.html.

Skinny wire wheels like that were an option on several lower/medium price cars of that era, usually sedans for town driving (wooden wheels were stronger and would survive rocky river crossings better). Examples include Oakland - http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_588847-Oakland-Sensible-Six-34-B-1918.html - Dodge - http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_209423-Dodge-Brothers-Sedan.html - although I am not convinced re the identification of the Dodge in the 1952 movie - but here is another more recent shot of a sedan - http://files.conceptcarz.com/img/Dodge/20-Dodge-Brothers-Sedan-DV-09-MBC-01.jpg - and another one from a 1920 movie - http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_171697-Dodge-Brothers-Sedan-1917.html

[Dave Henderson]

Yes, exceptions can be found, even on the humble Model T, but the most common wheels found on touring cars of the era were wood spoke wheels. About that rear cowl, having it enabled the installation of an optional rear windshield, a refinement usually found only on higher price cars.

[sambarn]

It's not a dual cowl, I agree with the cloverleaf or 2+2 styling. A fairly big and sporty car - very similar to the Marmon but not - it's the hood louvres that will be the clue to ID.

[Dave Henderson]

Sure looks like cowling over the back of the front seat to me.

[Spinneyhill]

I agree, looks like fully body (cowl) behind front seat, but cannot see any screen mounting holes in it.

Internal door handles.

What is that on the chassis cover apron below the door: central chassis greasing? => up-market.

Those earlier REOs were all rivetted together! This one has a more rounded radiator shroud top than the screen sides. It looks more like late teens to early '20s with the smooth cowl between bonnet and door.

Clearly a posed shot. Their hats would blow off at low speed unless pushed down hard and they aren't. And the wheels are in perfect focus.

Is it on the roof of a building? If so, which building? Was it occupied by a car dealership?

[keiser31]

I agree, looks like fully body (cowl) behind front seat, but cannot see any screen mounting holes in it.

Internal door handles.

What is that on the chassis cover apron below the door: central chassis greasing? => up-market.

Those earlier REOs were all rivetted together! This one has a more rounded radiator shroud top than the screen sides. It looks more like late teens to early '20s with the smooth cowl between bonnet and door.

Clearly a posed shot. Their hats would blow off at low speed unless pushed down hard and they aren't. And the wheels are in perfect focus.

Is it on the roof of a building? If so, which building? Was it occupied by a car dealership?

It looks like an elevated street or bridge where the car is located....not a roof.

[Guest cben09]

Does anyone have a pic of an Apperson of this period,

They were upscale,,and sported electric shift [Vulcan i think]

[Spinneyhill]

Just ask the internet. Wikipedia has some and I found another site too, in a few moments.

[Curti]

There is some resemblance to a PAN.

[Dave Henderson]

The Apperson suggestion lead me to Haynes of the era. Hood louvers look right.

[dictator27]

It looks like an elevated street or bridge where the car is located....not a roof.

The picture was taken on the old Georgia Street viaduct in downtown Vancouver.

Terry

[nzcarnerd]

The Apperson suggestion lead me to Haynes of the era. Hood louvers look right.

This is not a big car. The wheel rims are likely to be 24" or at most 25" diameter. Notice that the engine hood is only about the same length as the rim diameter suggesting it is possibly a four cylinder model. The wheelbase of the car is not much more than four times the rim diameter suggesting around 100-110". BY comparison the Haynes of that time was on a 127" wheelbase and had a big six cylinder engine with the hood half as long again as the rim diameter.

The suggestion of the Pan sounds nearer the mark. That had a 108" wheelbase and a four cylinder engine of 3.25" x 5" (166cid).

[nzcarnerd]

Some pictures of a Pan here - http://www.auctionsamerica.com/events/feature-lots.cfm?SaleCode=FC12&ID=r117&Order=price&feature=&collection=&grouping=&category=Cars - they were only built 1919-1921. Some similarities but not convincing.

[Dave Henderson]

Yes, agreed that this isn't a large car, but cars with an under 110" wheelbase in, for example 1920, were these relatively lower price cars; Briscoe, Chevrolet, Dort, Essex, Ford T, Maxwell, Moore, Nelson, Overland, and Spacke. I don't think the mystery car is one of these. (Source; MoToR Specification Tables ca.1924). The Pan didn't show up in the '20 lineup, but it was listed on the 1919 and 1922 sheets, having a 108" wheelbase riding in 33 x 4 tires. A 1919 picture of it in Beverly Rae Kime's Standard Catalog of American Cars depicts it as rather primitive looking, small and low priced, certainly not of the ilk of the mystery car. Specs did not change in '22. The crankshaft had but 2 bearings. The company was always in trouble, the promoter a con artist who landed in prison.

[Guest derekl]

Here's a snap, taken this week, of the same Vancouver location. The configuration of the roadway of the viaduct has changed somewhat.

[Guest prs519]

I, too, recall that Pan was associated with something fraudulent. The same weak memory thinks it recalls an ad showing the Pan being transformable into

a kitchenette, or full size bed, or something like that?? For now, I will vote for REO. I believe there was once an original Pan located near Lagoon amusement park, near Ogden Utah. I think that car was a survivor, but I do not know what became of it.

[oldcarfudd]

Moline-Knight?

[Dave Henderson]

Moline Knight ca. 1919 may be a ringer. There is a strong resemblance to pictures in the Standard Catalog of American Cars and an example that ! Googled. I'm buying it for lack of anything closer.

[Guest cben09]

Has annyone seen Phil Richardson's Moline Knight,,

It had 28' Houc wire wheels I think

Boston area,,,1954

[Varun Coutinho]

On 12/29/2014 at 6:53 AM, Guest derekl said:

Hi,

This is a photograph in the City of Vancouver (Canada) archives. I'd like to identify the car, if possible.

Note the scoop between the front and the rear seats.

The hub-cap seems to read Hock.

The Hood Ornament is possibly custom, as many at that time were, it looks like a man with a moustache, wearing a jacket with a star on his upper left chest and maybe on his cap too.

Any info much appreciated,

Derek

1916  -  1918 Elgin Six Touring

 

Manufacturer : 
1916 - 1923 Elgin Motor Car Corp. - Argo, Illinois.
1923 - 1924 Elgin Motors Inc. - Indianapolis, Indiana.

[dl456]

Who is this guy?

Varun,

I am in awe at your identification abilities.

Some many years old.

Please fill us in on your background and ability to identify these orphans.

Thanks,

Dennis

[Varun Coutinho]

@dl456Thanks.
I'm just an avid Car enthusiast.

Identifying U.S. Brass Era Antique Cars is a fun activity for me.
Just checking out the forum posts, for any unidentified/ mystery automobiles!

[dl456]

Please continue.

I enjoy it myself

Dennis

[58L-Y8]

Varun, Thanks for the accurate identification, it's an impressive skill especially for obscure makes.  Here's a better look at the second image.

[wayne sheldon]

On 7/15/2023 at 1:25 PM, dl456 said:

Who is this guy?

Varun,

I am in awe at your identification abilities.

 

For whatever it is worth (probably not much?) and a bit of curiosity? About twenty or a few years more ago, several times in conversations among a few longtime friends including some very serious collectors of prewar and horseless carriage era automobiles, the name "Varun" was mentioned as someone a few of these people knew. Usually the comment was along the lines of "I talked with Varun the other day about the (car) and he suggested-----" (Specific names of other people and cars shall remain nameless?)

Since they did not mention the last name, I can only guess it was likely you/him. Regardless, those that knew "Varun" clearly had a great deal of respect for him.

Edited July 18, 2023 by wayne sheldon
I hate leaving typos! (see edit history)

[old car fan]

Absolutely  amazing.