Crisis in The Vintage Chevrolet Club!

[smithbrother]

QUOTE: "but the antique UNMODIFIED cars are worth more",

In some cases that's true, but not always.

Dale in Indy

[John348]

This really is not about value, but rather values. If i were not in this hobby I would have a lot more money then I do now, but I would have a lot less friends

[DAVE A]

I know a lot of people don't take our little cars seriously, but we have a pretty harmonious group that gets along very well. The Crosley Auto Club had had a Modified class at our National show for years. We don't all like it, we don't all promote it, but the fact remains that there is a portion of our hobby that likes to modify cars. It isn't for me but I can appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into some modified cars. I have seen Crosleys with just about every sort of drive train, engine and interior that exists. Some are very nice and some are plain sick. I have seen rare Hotshots with a 289 in them and a relatively common wagon with a rare Buick straight 8 in it. We even had a wagon a few years back with a Harley Davidson Motorcycle engine. A ford flathead 60 is a pretty common modification.

These cars have continued to be a class at our show....one class out of 13 that we have every year. The number of modifieds remains pretty constant from year to year , it neither grows nor dwindles. There are those at the show that will not go near them....That's their choice. Every year there are voting ballots that refuse to mark a choice in modified class. Yes...we have even lost a member or 2 to a new group that was formed as an on line entity devoted to original cars only (its leader's car is somewhat modified). Most of its members (including me) are also members of our organization. The fact is that we are a group that allows for all models and types of Crosleys and for the most part we appreciate what other members like even if it isn't our interest. We even added a class for Non Automotive Crosley items so we have radios to refrigerators at our show!!!

What we have in the common is respect for each other and the love for everything Crosley. Every year we have an award for the "Favorite exhibit of the Show" This year it was a "Crosley Timeline" of developments of the Crosley Corporation with examples along the way!! Last year it was the only Crosley Factory made Farm O Road Fire Engine. I can tell you that each year there were modifieds in the running for that award.

I know I am rambling a bit here, but what I am trying to say is that there is nothing to fear from allowing modifieds in a marque club in my opinion. It brings in a group of new members and really, these guys aren't competition for some of the parts that are so important t those of us who stick with original cars. And for those that want only original cars, we ALL have the AACA!!!

[smithbrother]

I love Crosley's. I grew up with John Mays in Bloomington, Il. and he did well racing such. I learned a lot from him.

He even made his own bodies for them, and had a blast working with the Crosley crowd.

I LIKE SMALL CARS, tooooooooo1

Dale in Indy

[Guest Fin_tastic]

Heck of a crossroads in your club, best of luck to you. I love all vintage cars and can even appreciate a modified classic. But, I walk past them all to

go check out a unmodified time machine..

[Guest]

I know a lot of people don't take our little cars seriously, but we have a pretty harmonious group that gets along very well. The Crosley Auto Club had had a Modified class at our National show for years. We don't all like it, we don't all promote it, but the fact remains that there is a portion of our hobby that likes to modify cars. It isn't for me but I can appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into some modified cars. I have seen Crosleys with just about every sort of drive train, engine and interior that exists. Some are very nice and some are plain sick. I have seen rare Hotshots with a 289 in them and a relatively common wagon with a rare Buick straight 8 in it. We even had a wagon a few years back with a Harley Davidson Motorcycle engine. A ford flathead 60 is a pretty common modification.

These cars have continued to be a class at our show....one class out of 13 that we have every year. The number of modifieds remains pretty constant from year to year , it neither grows nor dwindles. There are those at the show that will not go near them....That's their choice. Every year there are voting ballots that refuse to mark a choice in modified class. Yes...we have even lost a member or 2 to a new group that was formed as an on line entity devoted to original cars only (its leader's car is somewhat modified). Most of its members (including me) are also members of our organization. The fact is that we are a group that allows for all models and types of Crosleys and for the most part we appreciate what other members like even if it isn't our interest. We even added a class for Non Automotive Crosley items so we have radios to refrigerators at our show!!!

What we have in the common is respect for each other and the love for everything Crosley. Every year we have an award for the "Favorite exhibit of the Show" This year it was a "Crosley Timeline" of developments of the Crosley Corporation with examples along the way!! Last year it was the only Crosley Factory made Farm O Road Fire Engine. I can tell you that each year there were modifieds in the running for that award.

I know I am rambling a bit here, but what I am trying to say is that there is nothing to fear from allowing modifieds in a marque club in my opinion. It brings in a group of new members and really, these guys aren't competition for some of the parts that are so important t those of us who stick with original cars. And for those that want only original cars, we ALL have the AACA!!!

Please re-read #4 post...nothing to fear you say!

Originally Posted by Dave Mellor NJ

I'm with you all the way, John,but I can't sign your petition. I was in the VCCA for one or two years while owning a 39 pickup about 80-81. I don't think you mind taking in GMCs as they are practically the same as a Chevy truck. I hope this doesn't set a precedent for other clubs. I didn't agree with AACA allowing race modified cars either. What's next?

Dave, it has already happened to other clubs. I was in a brand specific club that was set up by it's members solely for the purest. As John said about the VCCA, there were numerous clubs for our brand of vehicle that allowed modified cars. Why these people decided to join our purest club is beyond comprehension, but after time these people brought more of their types of people to the club. Once they had established enough people for votes for their people to hold office they began amending the by-laws to the club. Today the memberships cars are about 80-85% modified cars and most of the purest myself included are long gone. Like VCCA, our club WAS the only pure stock alternative for our brand.

As far as other clubs go, Oldsmobile Club of America, Pontiac Oakland Club International all allow modified and custom cars into the membership and provide classes for them at local and national events.

John, Why has VCCA taken in GMC? Pontiac Oakland Club is the club that represents GMC. Ever since when Pontiac division and GMC division merged.

Good luck with your fight, I hope you can keep control of your club.

[Larry W]

Maybe "Jrwox" from the "Hubcap ID" thread had better hurry to attend a VCCA car show, so he can see a '57 Chevy with stock hubcaps. Before they're all shown with mag wheels!

[wayne sheldon]

So much gray area, to begin with. Personally, I don't like the idea of being a "purist", because it is unrealistic. I do want my cars to be as close to "era correct" as is reasonable. And that includes my model T boat-tail roadster. Although it does have a few accessories that weren't on the market until about 1924. Speedsters are a particularly difficult debate. And vintage modifications can be just as difficult.

That issue aside, really early automobiles really need a club that caters to their specific needs, research, comradery, touring requirements. The HCCA is that club. They also have weathered a similar assault for many years. With them, it is not a modified acceptance, but allowing newer cars as active members. I have always argued against such a change. I also belong to a Nickel Age Touring Club (not affiliated with the HCCA). I want a nickel age club? I join a nickel age club. I want a horseless carriage club? I join a horseless carriage club. The HCCA should not expand into the '20s and certainly not later cars. The efforts to preserve AND TOUR earlier cars could be too easily lost if that happened. It is interesting to note, that they already do not tour the pre-1908 cars very much. In England and Australia, the really early cars are toured much more than they are here. I read a lot of the tour reports.

There should be a club for cars nearly how Chevrolet built them. And that club should be the VCCA.

I think the biggest problem, is the loss of understanding that there IS a difference. Too many people today do not understand that a hotrod and an authentically restored car are not the same thing. That goes hand-in-hand with not learning or appreciating history in general. That is part of catering to the "lowest common denominator" and teaching people that no matter what they do, it is a good thing and they should not ever be expected to learn anything different. The lessons of history are being lost, and that is leading us down a path that will likely end this once great nation. Then where will our cars be?

Freedom is another important issue. I applaud people building hotrods (as long as they do so because that is what they want, and hopefully have enough appreciation to not destroy something historically significant). It does not mean that clubs should not be specifically for "era correct" cars.

I have ranted enough for this time.

Drive carefully, and enjoy, while you can. W2

[plymouthcranbrook]

I once read that many people who have old cars really want a 2014 Honda that looks like an old car and the more I look the more I think that it is true.

[DAVE A]

Please re-read #4 post...nothing to fear you say!

Dave, it has already happened to other clubs. I was in a brand specific club that was set up by it's members solely for the purest. As John said about the VCCA, there were numerous clubs for our brand of vehicle that allowed modified cars. Why these people decided to join our purest club is beyond comprehension, but after time these people brought more of their types of people to the club. Once they had established enough people for votes for their people to hold office they began amending the by-laws to the club. Today the memberships cars are about 80-85% modified cars and most of the purest myself included are long gone. Like VCCA, our club WAS the only pure stock alternative for our brand.

As far as other clubs go, Oldsmobile Club of America, Pontiac Oakland Club International all allow modified and custom cars into the membership and provide classes for them at local and national events.

I don't wish to argue with you...it is your club and you may do with it as you like..and I am sure I will not change anyones mind on either side. This is a very volatile issue. I just wish to pose a question or 2.. How did membership end up 80-85% modifieds?? Did the club grow by 9 fold due to the influx of rodders or did the existing purists instead of working with the newcomers for the good of brand of vehicle, take their ball and go home??? If that is what happened, then the club was not taken over by rodders, it was abandonded by its purists. As I said, we work together for the good of everything Crosley and so no one looks at anything as a "takeover" Those of us who appreciate original restored cars respect (and in many cases learn from) the rodders and vice versa. I personally have bought a number of drive trains and other parts from Crosleys that were rodded. As a result a number of cars that were baisically junk have been brought back from the brink of scrap yard material. I think this is true..for every car that is rodded, its parts go to restore another original car. Those in the VCCA would be wise to embrace the rodders, establish classes for them and work together for the advancement of vintage Chevys. This will maintain places for the pure cars and use the money, membership and power of the expanded club to move forward.

[Guest]

Please re-read #4 post...nothing to fear you say!

Dave, it has already happened to other clubs. I was in a brand specific club that was set up by it's members solely for the purest. As John said about the VCCA, there were numerous clubs for our brand of vehicle that allowed modified cars. Why these people decided to join our purest club is beyond comprehension, but after time these people brought more of their types of people to the club. Once they had established enough people for votes for their people to hold office they began amending the by-laws to the club. Today the memberships cars are about 80-85% modified cars and most of the purest myself included are long gone. Like VCCA, our club WAS the only pure stock alternative for our brand.

As far as other clubs go, Oldsmobile Club of America, Pontiac Oakland Club International all allow modified and custom cars into the membership and provide classes for them at local and national events.

I don't wish to argue with you...it is your club and you may do with it as you like..and I am sure I will not change anyones mind on either side. This is a very volatile issue. I just wish to pose a question or 2.. How did membership end up 80-85% modifieds?? Did the club grow by 9 fold due to the influx of rodders or did the existing purists instead of working with the newcomers for the good of brand of vehicle, take their ball and go home??? If that is what happened, then the club was not taken over by rodders, it was abandonded by its purists. As I said, we work together for the good of everything Crosley and so no one looks at anything as a "takeover" Those of us who appreciate original restored cars respect (and in many cases learn from) the rodders and vice versa. I personally have bought a number of drive trains and other parts from Crosleys that were rodded. As a result a number of cars that were baisically junk have been brought back from the brink of scrap yard material. I think this is true..for every car that is rodded, its parts go to restore another original car. Those in the VCCA would be wise to embrace the rodders, establish classes for them and work together for the advancement of vintage Chevys. This will maintain places for the pure cars and use the money, membership and power of the expanded club to move forward.

I will try and be patient. First, if you read my thread above I lost my club to the modified people. How did the membership go to 80-85 % modified? I explained that as well....modified people infiltrated the club, and the purest left the club. As far as working for the good of the brand goes, anytime you modify a car you are destroying the the brand because you are making the car over into YOUR image instead of the intent of the maker or manufacturer of the car.

If you would have read the statement I made and you quoted this response would be unnecessary.

[Dave@Moon]

I am a purest when it comes to my antiques. I prefer them to modifications which IMHO detract from the historic nature of the object in question. An antique car isn't a functional machine, or at least it shouldn't be. Neither should it be an expression of one's personality, or a homebuilt speed machine.

Not that there's anything wrong with any of those things, just don't call them "antique" or "vintage". They're not any more. Beyond that the only offense I take from such machines is when they are made from truly rare and irreplaceable pieces of history (either whole/restored cars or extremely rare parts). Fortunately that trend seems to have diminished lately.

What I don't understand is why, if you have a modified car, one would join a club that has "vintage" or "antique in it's name and expect equal standing/treatment. If I grafted Packard Caribbean fins on my Prius and joined the Packard club and tried to display my creation as a representation of "Packard" it would be a joke. Why isn't it (albeit to a lesser degree) a joke when objects are grafted together and then the agglomeration is claimed to be only one one of the specific sources for those objects? There are plenty of places where those creations, which I will not denigrate here, can be welcomed as full members and be part of a larger experience of like minded individuals.

What I see, from my perspective, is 2 things. First a significant number of modified car owners are not happy being part of a larger whole, and want to find a smaller pond so they can pretend to be bigger fish. What isn't realized is that the pond inevitably grows with it's population, and "big fish" aesthetic is short-lived at best.

The second is a mater of numbers, which must be especially scary for Chevy people. Modified cars outnumber authentic ars in almost every marque, usually by a wide margin. The authentic car owners are rightfully intimidated, and know they will eventually be swamped out of their own clubs by these actions. The wanna-be big fish either don't care or don't notice this effect.

Being involved with British cars, I'm lucky on these counts. Our marque specific clubs generally would be too small to survive if they were limited to authentic cars only, and the modified contingent isn't quite large enough to displace the rest. We tend to coexist peacefully, and find mutual benefit, but it is work to do so on both sides. This work is unnecessary on a scale as big as the VCCA. If clubs like that are going to be taken over by people here-to-fore outside the purview of the club, they can expect little in the way of the harmonious cooperation that would be necessary for such coexistence to work. They're just taking someone else's club.

[cahartley]

^ APPLAUSE

In May of this year when I acquired my '65 Mustang Coupe with a 200 straight 6 just about EVERYONE said "Drop in a 289"........ :mad:

If I had WANTED a V8 I'd have BOUGHT a V8....... <headbang>

So I'm very much with you.

There was a small 1st year car show in the area a few months ago and I could count the number of "right" cars on two hands....... </headbang>

[R.White]

Although a club magazine is not for profit compared with a commercial publication I think some comparisons can be drawn.

I have taken 'the automobile' magazine since it's inception in 1982. This is the premier monthly journal for the historic car movement in the U.K. and is also sold around the world. Until very recently hot rods were considered outside the remit of the magazine but suddenly there has been a change and articles promoting these highly modified cars have appeared. I wrote a letter objecting to what I felt was an inappropriate change of direction for the magazine but had my opinion ridiculed in a way which demonstrated that 'The Automobile' is now in favour of hot rods. It would be a great shame if the British old car scene followed the same pattern as the U.S.A. but if the country's top old car magazine doesn't care about our motoring heritage then the signs are not good.

With no other letters being published supporting my position I assume 'The Automobile' is intent on aiming at a wider market. After 32 years as a loyal customer, I shall not be renewing my subscription.

Ray.

[Guest Gary Hearn]

I see this as malaise on the part of the membership as a whole. If you are not willing to put forth the time and effort to preserve the underlying mission then you can't complain about the results. Ironically, I see parallels with the current goings on in a particular New York school district.

[Skylark4367]

If you're a VCCA member attending Hershey, please sign the petition. The VCCA has always been the "Port in the Storm" for hobbyists that appreciate the cars the way Chevrolet presented and sold them to the public. It would be very sad if we lose that port. I belong to VCCA and AACA because I own and appreciate original spec cars. I joined other clubs that allow modified cars but never renewed the subscriptions because of all the modified cars in the magazines. I enjoy reading about the original spec cars in Antique Automobile along with the automotive history. The VCCA Generator and Distributor is nothing special, but it does support the club's purpose of restoration and preservation of Chevrolets. I signed the petition to keep the club's mission from being hijacked.

[John348]

I see this as malaise on the part of the membership as a whole. If you are not willing to put forth the time and effort to preserve the underlying mission then you can't complain about the results. Ironically, I see parallels with the current goings on in a particular New York school district.

Gary, without a doubt you are 100% correct. These guys on the VCCA BOD were unopposed, the Election Committee is happy just to prop a body (war or cold) up to fill the position at the time of the election. I know this having chaired it when I was VP for the club.

Ironic you mentioned the NYC School System. My yougest son had his first day on the job yesterday as an elementary school teacher (full time sub), I could not beleive his stories of just one day. Sounded like "The Bridge" scene in the movie Apocolypse Now, nobody was really was in charge

Edited October 4, 2014 by Biscayne John (see edit history)

[John348]

If you're a VCCA member attending Hershey, please sign the petition. QUOTE]

Hey Russ we can't stress that enough, I did hear some the Board Members are going to appear at the members picnic on Thursday eve. Maybe that is a place where members can have some face time with the leadership? I can't wait to see and hear the reaction of the crowd when they are introduced. These BOD members are either very brave, very stupid or really truely out of touch with the membership! Sign the petition and be at the picnic!

I would like to thank everyone for their support, I was away from the computer most of the day packing for Hershey. I need to make sure I pack some rotten tomatoes now, maybe a few eggs?

[MyJetstar1]

Basically, the same thing happened with my rock collecting club. While there were many members, few actively participated, and made little, if any, effort to preserve the integrity of the club. The next thing you know, a marble collector is elected to the board via a popularity contest. Afterwards, still not a peep from a majority of the membership, and suddenly a few marble collectors feel that the club needs to go in a new direction. When the membership should have reacted, they did nothing and set idly by as more and more marble collectors were put in positions of authority. Now it's too late, and my rock collecting club is nothing like it was years ago.

The same thing happened to my Country.

Jim

[R W Burgess]

Basically, the same thing happened with my rock collecting club. While there were many members, few actively participated, and made little, if any, effort to preserve the integrity of the club. The next thing you know, a marble collector is elected to the board via a popularity contest. Afterwards, still not a peep from a majority of the membership, and suddenly a few marble collectors feel that the club needs to go in a new direction. When the membership should have reacted, they did nothing and set idly by as more and more marble collectors were put in positions of authority. Now it's too late, and my rock collecting club is nothing like it was years ago.

The same thing happened to my Country.

Jim

LIKE!

[62BillT]

John,

I agree and as a long time member of the VCCA, I will be signing the petition.

Bill

[Kimo]

This is not a new thing in non-profit clubs and organizations and even small town governments. it can be either a hostile take over with bad or even criminal intent, or just a meandering due to apathy. This is one of the soft spots in democratic structures of such organizations where elected boards of directors or city councils or such are given very strong powers to make decisions and changes in charters or other underlying governing rules/bylaws/laws/etc. A group of people with harmful intent and cleverness can identify such organizations that have largely apathetic memberships or citizenry, conspire to infiltrate them simply by joining them, and with little effort get themselves elected into leadership positions simply by offering to take these jobs that few members actually would want. Once they have a majority they then use the organizations own democratic processes to gain personal benefits in cases where there is a criminal intent, or in cases where there is no criminal intent they can hijack a fully established organization and it's existing financial and other resources to meet their personal vision which is much less difficult and cheaper than what it would have taken for them to start a new organization on their own. In cases where there is no criminal intent such as making off with the treasury or other assets or giving themselves all expense paid trips and such, the only way for the captured group to fight back is to use the bylaws/procedures/etc. to take back their organization and repair whatever damage has been done. Depending on the bylaws/procedures/etc. this can happen through a recall if that is permitted, or more likely in the next election of board members but that would take some organizing of the voting membership to support a slate of board member candidates who would put the group back on track. Then once you have repaired the harm you need to talk to a good attorney to come up with some iron clad rules or procedures that would prevent such take overs in the future or make such a take over useless because the Board of Directors would not have the power to make major changes on the fundamental matters without some serious requirements such as approval of a supermajority of the group's entire membership.

Edited October 4, 2014 by Kimo (see edit history)

[John348]

Thanks Kimo,

You hit the nail on the head my friend! It really was something that nobody ever thought would happen. I am sure nobody here would ever imagine the AACA doing something like this, and that is how the VCCA Membership felt. The entire way the VCCA Board is structured needs to be re thought. The club is broken into 12 geographic areas, and each of them has an elected representitive. All 8 of these individuals were unopposed, for that matter everyone on the BOD was unopposed. It looks like the membership will take it back, but this will come with a cost, that has yet to be determined. I do hope one of the positive things is members will be more active and pay attention to who runs our club in the future, and more important is to why they want the position.

Hey Bill, how have you been? The Cool Pack A/C I bought from you I guess about 15 years ago is still working great in my 62. Do you have access to the petition? If not let me know I will get it to you, also have your spouse sign it also. Thanks for being a concerned member

[Guest]

Thanks Kimo,

You hit the nail on the head my friend! It really was something that nobody ever thought would happen. I am sure nobody here would ever imagine the AACA doing something like this, and that is how the VCCA Membership felt. The entire way the VCCA Board is structured needs to be re thought. The club is broken into 12 geographic areas, and each of them has an elected representitive. All 8 of these individuals were unopposed, for that matter everyone on the BOD was unopposed. It looks like the membership will take it back, but this will come with a cost, that has yet to be determined. I do hope one of the positive things is members will be more active and pay attention to who runs our club in the future, and more important is to why they want the position.

Hey Bill, how have you been? The Cool Pack A/C I bought from you I guess about 15 years ago is still working great in my 62. Do you have access to the petition? If not let me know I will get it to you, also have your spouse sign it also. Thanks for being a concerned member

John , I was going through Hemmings Classic Car magazine and saw the add for VCCA. It sure is different wording from a year ago. FYI, this is part of the infiltrating process. It says;

For more than 50 years VVCA has maintained it's pledge to support the preservation, restoration and excitement of Chevrolets. NOW we welcome ALL Chevrolets, vintage or contemporary, original, "personalized", and now our Chevrolet truck brother GMC. So no matter what you drive (I will paraphrase) all will have a lasting good time.

FYI the reason Pontiac Oakland club Int. brought GMC into their club was twofold. 1, Pontiac division merged with GMC and from 1955-1959 GMC used the Pontiac V-8 in their pick up's along with 4 speed HydraMatic's.

FYI #2 they also used Olds V-8's too.

I wonder how the Chevy guys will like that on their showfield?

[John348]

Heflin,

Sorry I know you asked aout the GMC issue earlier and I did'nt give you an answer. I don't like it at all. GMC is just another Division of GM, they are no more similar then a Grand Prix is to a Monte Carlo, or at least 2 dozen other shared models. GMC ia a parallel brand, I have owned new ones for the past 15 years. The main fight is the modified issue, and if that does not happen it really does not matter, the club will be questionable. Even now GMC is under the same roof as Buick. The GMC idea was a motion submitted by a member (I still can't figure that one out) and it was approved. I don't know why GMC's owners don't have their own club like all of the other owners of vehicles from the other GM divisions is beyond me. Are they still part of the Pontiac Club?

It's funny you mentioned the ad's because those ad's surfaced days after the BOD made it official. Most times it takes 60 days prior for an ad to change content, so it seemed like the vote was just a formality and this was decided before hand.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Biscayne John (see edit history)

[beetles]

A couple of things,

If you want a 1928 (insert your brand of vehicle here) then DRIVE a 1928 (whatever you chose)!

There is no point, in my mind at least, of having an old car but actually getting in it and driving something else.

When your kid, or grand kid gets the pleasure of inheriting your old car he/ she will undoubtably tell friends that "this is the correct part for this car 'coz Dad/Pa has had it since new, or forever and that's the way it is supposed to be".

Now unless this kid has been FULLY involved with you and the car for a very long time he won't know any better and this is where history is rewritten by the innocent but led by the "couldn't care less", or "the too lazy to make the effort to find the correct part".

I appreciate the craftsmanship, the artistic creation, and the detail of WELL DONE modifieds and I COULD own one. But I could NEVER sacrifice a complete , or near complete vehicle in ANY condition to create a 'version' of it. Nor could I see the point of joining a club dedicated to the preservation of those cars unless it was to get some parts to mould into your latest creation. In this case I would consider you a traitor and a mercenary.

So by all means exercise you 'RIGHT' to do what you want with your vehicle but join the club or association that pertains to that vehicle. Don't infiltrate some other group so as to modify that too!

Perhaps there could be some parts that are unobtainable and in such cases I believe it to be in the best interest of the club and history for the club concerned to have a listing of 'accepted modifications or variances'.

This way the club could control the creep into 'modified by stealth.'

[Guest]

Heflin,

Sorry I know you asked aout the GMC issue earlier and I did'nt give you an answer. I don't like it at all. GMC is just another Division of GM, they are no more similar then a Grand Prix is to a Monte Carlo, or at least 2 dozen other shared models. GMC ia a parallel brand, I have owned new ones for the past 15 years. The main fight is the modified issue, and if that does not happen it really does not matter, the club will be questionable. Even now GMC is under the same roof as Buick. The GMC idea was a motion submitted by a member (I still can't figure that one out) and it was approved. I don't know why GMC's owners don't have their own club like all of the other owners of vehicles from the other GM divisions is beyond me. Are they still part of the Pontiac Club?

It's funny you mentioned the ad's because those ad's surfaced days after the BOD made it official. Most times it takes 60 days prior for an ad to change content, so it seemed like the vote was just a formality and this was decided before hand.

John, yes GMC is part of the organization. As said before Pontiac Oakland Club International accepts modified and customs into their club. It is my understanding that the AACA's Oakland Pontiac chapter was founded because of this reason. When you read POCI's mission statement it conflicts with having modified cars. At one time some Olds club guys told me that they were talking about introducing GMC into their club because as I said in other threads here that Olds engines were used in mainly the heavier GMC 1/2 to 3/4 ton trucks of the fifties, and as we all know the big GMC motorhome was powered by a 455 Olds with the Toronado transaxle.

Click on the link to POCI's mission statement, how they can get around letting modified and custom cars and keep the statement is beyond me.

The purpose of the Pontiac-Oakland Club International is:

• to pool together as much information as possible to assist Pontiac, Oakland, and GMC owners in the restoration and preservation of their vehicles,

• to promote interest in Pontiac, Oakland, and GMC vehicles, their history, restoration, preservation and, above all,

• to make owning a Pontiac, Oakland, or GMC an enjoyable experience.

  When you modify a car you have taken all the preservation and history out of the car!

Edited October 5, 2014 by helfen (see edit history)

[John348]

Hey Heflin,

Very interesting, so basically the BOD of the VCCA decided they can step on another non-profit club and try to steal members. The word is that many of the BOD Members who spearheaded this new direction will be at the club picnic on Thursday at Hershey. There has been a lot of talk that many members are looking attend the function just to verbally express their feelings in person, looks to be very entertaining to say the least. If you are going to make it to Hershey I would like to meet up with you, the electronic conversations we had both public and private were enjoyable.

[Guest windjamer]

OK guys, John came on board here to get help at the Hershey meet to help him save his National Club. We do not have to take sides on this situation. If you are at Hershey next week, look John up and try to support him.

Thank you.

Wayne

Wayne, I could not agree with you or John more. I like country music, don't ask me to play rap. I am a member of the Iroquois region. a 60 year region that I personally am starting a fight to save, and we have some new blood that wants to change the region. Why is it always the new blood that wants change?? You joined MY club because you liked what took 60 years to build. Why the he** did you join if you just want to change. I need to change the subject, I'm already on blood pressure meds. See you in Hershey.

[Guest AlCapone]

Possibly a membership petition should be started asking the board to resign in mass !

Wayne

[John348]

Hey Guys,

I am still packing up my truck for Hershey. Every year I always say I am not going to wait till the last minute and here I am again hoping to get it done before dark, oh well.........

I want to let everyone know that posts on this thread have been very helpfull many ways to the efforts of the VCCA members who are fighting to "restore and preseve the VCCA." The almost 2,000 views and the 70 posts I feel are part of sending a message to those who decided it was visionary to change the 53 year old mission of the club. I DO FEEL some of the people who made the changes for the VCCA mission have been following the thread, and if not following directly they do know the conversation exists here on this forum. It has to be a wake up call for them, and I hope a wake up call for everyone else, if someone told me 2 years ago this could happen to the VCCA I would have said "no way, not here." Well as you can see it did, so please all of you be aware it can happen to your clubs also. So when your club elections are going on, read the bio's and cast a vote.

The AACA's election is going on now, so participate and vote. Look for that tell tale sign of nobody running for the positions, and they get in the position unopposed. In our case not one of these 12 members of the BOD were elected. I am not saying they are all bad, and it was nice of them to want to volunteer their time, but they have not found the pulse of the membership of the club they are serving for.

It does not matter if your a member of the VCCA or not, if you enjoy this hobby for the sense of automotive history and the preservation and restoration of that history. Your posts have helped the cause of our efforts so much!

Back to loading my truck........

Edited October 5, 2014 by Biscayne John (see edit history)

[PONTIAC1953]

Hello Ed,

I had met you this past winter at the VCCA Meet in Titusville hope to see you this winter when I retun Ocala. There seems to be a misunderstanding, gosh no we are not looking to ban people with radial tires. We were asked to keep it the way it was, that's all. One of the main problems with this direction the current BOD decided to go is that are no rules or guidelines yet, the new group get to make them as they feel fit. What you said about the membership is not true, we are not loosing members more then gaining. From the current membership report that I read we are pretty much just flatlining with the same number of members for the past 15 years. We see this move might have a negitiave affect on the membership. When the monthly magazine is only 3/4's or 1/2 of the content that they have enjoyed reading and their membership value is diminished will they rejoin? You said you restore stock and stock is what you love and same with me. How would you feel about your membership after a dues increase (like we just had) and you get 1/4 less content for the year?

The GMC issue I myself don't like at all, simply because they are not Chevrolets, just a parallel brand sold in separate stores, serviced by separate manuals and sold with separate paper. No different then many other models that share the same parts amoung all of the GM divisions. I think the GMC thing is being driven the in magazine advertisers, and for all I know that might be the motive for the Modifieds,

Ed we are just trying to keep the club just the way it was last year, and the 52 before that. I know with your Corvair, just finding any type of 13" tire can be hard let alone a bias ply

I hope I was able to clear things up

well i for one, find your judgement of GMC pick up trucks extremely offensive, most of GMC products are exactly like chevy products except for the engines in some years, the name, and the radiator grill. that's like someone telling a pontiac owner with a pontiac product that was built with a non-pontiac motor that the car is not a pontiac.

so do you think that a chevy built with a non-chevy motor is not a chevy ?.

as far as this discussion about the vcca, i believe that the non stock chevies have no place in the club, they can create another club that is just for modified vintage chevies.

charles l. coker

1953 pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

[Guest]

well i for one, find your judgement of GMC pick up trucks extremely offensive, most of GMC products are exactly like chevy products except for the engines in some years, the name, and the radiator grill. that's like someone telling a pontiac owner with a pontiac product that was built with a non-pontiac motor that the car is not a pontiac.

so do you think that a chevy built with a non-chevy motor is not a chevy ?.

as far as this discussion about the vcca, i believe that the non stock chevies have no place in the club, they can create another club that is just for modified vintage chevies.

charles l. coker

1953 pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

Hi Charles, As a former member of POCI for over 20 years, and yourself as a tech advisor, we both know that a vast number of POCI members do not consider anything Pontiac built after 1981 to be a real Pontiac and also some of the cars from the 60's and 70's with corporate engines or cars built in Canada not to be real Pontiac's either. Some great many Oldsmobile folks feel the same way too about Oldsmobile, and if you remember all the legality Oldsmobile division went through in the mid 70's after they started putting small block Chev. engines in Oldsmobiles and called them a Rocket V-8's. Growing up with a family that was all Pontiac or Oldsmobile I can tell you the heart of the brand was the engine. This was ingrained in our heads by family and brand advertising. While a 1979 Bonneville is not a Caprice, it's what we call a bastard Pontiac and the Caprice is still a Chevy.

Anyroad, I wish John the best of luck at Hershey, I wish POCI was as dedicated to stock vehicles, if they were I would be a member.

[John_S_in_Penna]

"Helfen" mentioned in Post #65 that the VCCA placed an

ad in Hemmings Classic Car. Which issue, which page?

I was flipping through my October issue (received in September)

and couldn't find it.

I'm glad to see members standing up for authentic cars.

You don't see mules at a horse show, do you?

[John348]

well i for one, find your judgement of GMC pick up trucks extremely offensive, most of GMC products are exactly like chevy products except for the engines in some years, the name, and the radiator grill. that's like someone telling a pontiac owner with a pontiac product that was built with a non-pontiac motor that the car is not a pontiac.

so do you think that a chevy built with a non-chevy motor is not a chevy ?.

as far as this discussion about the vcca, i believe that the non stock chevies have no place in the club, they can create another club that is just for modified vintage chevies.

charles l. coker

1953 pontiac tech advisor

tech advisor coordinator

poci

Charlie, I did not mean to offend anyone sorry if I did. The trucks might look the same and have many parts that are identical but the part they don't share is most important one........... The Bow Tie Emblem. Everyone recognizes the truck similarity, but it happened a lot wiht GM. I have a 1977 Chevrolet Monza and 1978 Buick Skyhawk the only difference is the name badges But it does not make the Buick a Chevy or the Chevy a Buick? They still are sold in seperate stores, serviced with different shop manuals, and sold on different brochures I have had 5 new GMC Sierra Pick-Up's in the past 12 years, after what I paid I would be insulted if someone thought it was a Chevrolet!

I'm tired

[Guest]

"Helfen" mentioned in Post #65 that the VCCA placed an

ad in Hemmings Classic Car. Which issue, which page?

I was flipping through my October issue (received in September)

and couldn't find it.

I'm glad to see members standing up for authentic cars.

You don't see mules at a horse show, do you?

John S, It's in the October issue of Hemmings Classic car page 13.

[smithbrother]

Well, as stated before, I hope you can win your case, but more and more I am seeing it is probably going to end up with the club allowing just about anything. Doubt there is much YOU can do about it.

It ain't no CHEVY club, but Buick clubs allow modified cars, and all the shows I have attended, EVERYONE got along just fine, but us Buick guys aren't Chevy guys. We are a lot more rare than dim dare Chevy's. I own a Chevy, so don't think I dislike them.

Wish you well,

Dale in Indy

[Matt Harwood]

I know it's a slippery slope argument, but how are they proposing to define a "modified" Chevy? In the Buick club, it has to be Buicks with Buick power. Are they going to let Chevy-powered Fords into the Chevy club? Fiberglass Chevys that never existed but look like Chevys? Chevy trucks with Chevy car engines?

I suspect that this may open the doors to a real free-for-all in the club where everybody ends up dissatisfied. The purists obviously aren't very happy and won't feel better later when their meets are overrun with row after row of shoebox Chevys with crate motors and 20-inch wheels, but later when the club isn't like Good Guys and handing out trophies for most dollars spent on chrome engine components, will the modified guys get disgruntled, too?

[Guest]

Just remember this; If you stop feeding the cat you'll end up feeding the mice. I know this to be true because as stated before one of the clubs I belonged to that was set up for the purest has 80% modified cars and the purest are long gone, and many people left POCI to form the Oakland Pontiac chapter here at AACA. If the VCCA loses this fight, the purest Chevy guys will have to start a new club or just join AACA.

Dale, would you now want to see modified cars at AACA?

[Guest]

I know it's a slippery slope argument, but how are they proposing to define a "modified" Chevy? In the Buick club, it has to be Buicks with Buick power. Are they going to let Chevy-powered Fords into the Chevy club? Fiberglass Chevys that never existed but look like Chevys? Chevy trucks with Chevy car engines?

I suspect that this may open the doors to a real free-for-all in the club where everybody ends up dissatisfied. The purists obviously aren't very happy and won't feel better later when their meets are overrun with row after row of shoebox Chevys with crate motors and 20-inch wheels, but later when the club isn't like Good Guys and handing out trophies for most dollars spent on chrome engine components, will the modified guys get disgruntled, too?

"For more than 50 years VVCA has maintained it's pledge to support the preservation, restoration and excitement of Chevrolets. NOW we welcome ALL Chevrolets, vintage or contemporary, original, "personalized", and now our Chevrolet truck brother GMC. So no matter what you drive (I will paraphrase) all will have a lasting good time.

I take that to mean anything goes!