I hate to be a jerk, and some people do still think this is a free country, BUT-

[wayne sheldon]

I usually, really do try to be polite. I do appreciate other peoples opinions and interests and rights. However, I just posted on a thread about a proposed cable TV program that I would be concerned about what their intent is with historic automobiles.

I tried to be polite. I think I was polite, there. Then, as I wandered down through other forum topic areas, I looked in where I sometimes dread to tread. Speedsters (I hesitated to say where, but figured it was important to my point and question). I do not usually look there too closely? I don't like a lot of what I see in there. However, I have had a few speedsters. I am restoring my sixth model T speedster and truly believe that they ARE as much a part of our automobile history as any Packard or Pierce Arrow is.

But most of the discussions in there are about cars that are not any sort of restoration or recreation of anything that has anything to do with Antique Automobiles (other than wasting good original parts). I was a bit surprised by the amount of "gushing praise" being heaped upon some of these projects.

They may look the part from a distance, but they are not Antique Automobiles once they have been butchered up in modern ways. The fact is, many of them may not even be legal to drive in most states. Once a car ceases to be something it was way back when, legally, it must conform to legally required safety and smog standards in force at the time it is built. And the time it is built is now 2014.

Now, I would like to think this is still a free country (although I have very serious doubts that do not belong in a major discussion here and now). There certainly should be a place for this sort of thing just as there should be a place for fiberglass bucket Ts. However, should that place be the Antique Automobile Club of America? Or in any historic vehicle association?

I have always restored my speedsters as close to "era correct" as I reasonably could. The two I have now are as "era correct" as most antique cars that attend major early car tours.

The hobbies of hotrods and antique automobiles do have a lot in common. But there are also some very important differences.

I did not say any of this there. I do try to be respectful and polite.

Should I say something there?

Should I have not posted this here at all?

Should I just shut up and go away?

If I have done wrong? Tell me.

Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

[Rusty_OToole]

You could learn to respect other peoples' opinions. I know this is hard when so many of them are stupid. If you have anything positive or of value to contribute, try putting it in a gentle or respectful way and then let it go. Sometimes they get it, sometimes they don't but there is nothing to gain by getting into a hassle.

By the way, pretty much all the speedster projects I know of, were made from parts and rough condition parts cars. Most of them would have wound up in the scrap pile. So don't worry about that. Worry about the marginal cars that get scrapped, or turned into hot rods. You might be able to save some of them.

[1937hd45]

Wayne, Here is something I know you can't do, post photos of your "ERA CORRECT" speedsters for us to inspect. Bob

[ojh]

I 'cross the line' and build hot rods. The one I am working on now - a '26-7 T 'Modified' is a restoration reject, a pile of rusted junk. I'm in the Shenandoah Vally, world class restoration shop are all around me, I can say without doubt that the time I spend recreating a single door on my modified is would be more consistant to what would be spent on a Bug restoration than a model T. I am not the only hot rod builder that has this level of commitment, I would go so far as to say that we are in the majority. The skill level varies but we all share the same level of enthieusasm so don't think ill of us if we don't speak the same 'language' we do use the same tools.

Respecfully, oj

[paulrhd29nz]

Well..... This form is about the automobile. Maybe you should switch over to the H.A.M.B. site where opinions and post like yours are the norm.

[West Peterson]

I find nothing wrong with asking questions like this. It can remain as far as I'm concerned. We each have our opinions. Just be respectful, please.

[West Peterson]

Wayne, Here is something I know you can't do, post photos of your "ERA CORRECT" speedsters for us to inspect. Bob

Sure he can.

[TexasJohn55]

Hi Wayne,

I'm not sure what your point is but we all have our own areas of interest. I like post-war Buicks because I own one and I like keeping it original. Others like other Makes and models. I am content to browse and learn but don't disapprove of others interests. I don't browse Speedsters because they don't interest me, unless I acquire one. Other interests don't detract from my use of the forum but add a little variety to my myopic view.

The H.A.M.B. holds little interest for me but I browse it occassionally. You know the old saying : "Birds of a feather flock together".

Just hang around and ENJOY.

[JACK M]

If these forums didn't see the merit of interested parties other than 'purists' there would be far fewer members.

By the way, as for the don't want to be a jerk department. I go to many rod shows (and they are indeed the majority) and I see some guy whose car I would be afraid to ride in, there is no way I would be so brash as to tell him I didn't like HIS project.

As long as we are having fun, life is short and getting shorter.

[plymouthcranbrook]

I am not sure that this is the best place for my thoughts on Rods ands their popularity but here goes anyway. I wonder it the "soft market" for average old cars that I have been reading about has something to do with the increase in restorable or original cars being extensively customized. I know of two friends who took over two years to sell their cars so they could buy something else they wanted. I am not talking about people whose prices were Sky High, just what seemed to me to be within market standards for the cars they wanted to sell. No offers for a long time. Perhaps there are those selling a car who really need the money, we all know how the economy is and has been. I am sure that most of us to some extent or another wish our cars to stay original but perhaps the need to sell has caused some to be forced to be less stringent in who they sell to. That may give someone who wants to make a Rod more willing to use a car in better original condition than he had planned to use. I read about how much less interest there is in younger generations in old cars and how much more difficult it is to sell a regular car(4 door, six cylinder, etc) and wonder if this has anything to do with it.

[1937hd45]

I'd like to know who started the myth that a Hot Rod had to be built from crap? Something a restorer was clueless to work on or unable to afford? Buying a 25-35 year old AACA First prize winner to Hot Rod is a good starting point IMO, and will allow the builder/owner a shorter and less costly built time. Bob

[West Peterson]

I'd like to know who started the myth that a Hot Rod had to be built from crap? Bob

I never heard that a hot rod "had" to be built up from crap. I've always heard it as an opinion.

[1937hd45]

West, just think of all the cars you and I have seen "RUINED" buy the clueless in an effort to "restore" them. Bob

[West Peterson]

... that too...! Now I have to bite my tongue...

[CarlLaFong]

Is this thread about speedsters or hot rods???

As far as speedsters go, aren't they just hot rods before the term was coined? Period correct or not, what speedster is "stock" and should be allowed to run on public highways or not?

Say you procure a "T" running gear. You go out and buy a new RAJO head, a new Warford. A nice set of wheels from McLaren, a Brassworks radiator and a body from Rootlieb. You now have a very traditional, period correct car. You built it in 2014. By your rules, it must be registered as a new car and have all of the smog and crash equipment required by the state and the feds. The car never existed prior to you putting it together.

All of this simply is a rehashing of a topic that comes up once a year, or so. It is the usual rant on how the hot rodders are ruining the hobby, how they should be tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail. The ranter considers himself to be an arbiter of good taste and fun. If the rodder, speedster builder or whomever isn't doing it his way, then he's not enjoying his car properly.

Fun must be defined and rigidly adhered to

[wayne sheldon]

Me, politely saying me again! A lot of interesting responses in only ten hours. Mostly I totally agree with, and mostly I do already. Thank you.

I think what got to me the most last night was the apparent lack of understanding that a "modern build" using modern major components is not something that is an antique. I see it as an education problem. Or better, a lack of education problem.

I was on a tour with a "Nickel Age" club several years ago. The club has high standards and only accepts cars from 1913 into early 1928, and kept mostly era correct with only correct drive-train and major components. There were 27 beautiful cars on this tour. One of the cars ahead of us pulled over for a minor adjustment, so I pulled over to see if he needed any help. The resident of the home we had stopped near came walking over and asked about the wonderful cars he had been watching go by. We explained that they were all built between 1913 and 1928 and restored/maintained with original engines and wheels (mostly wood wheels). He seemed quite interested, so the other tourist and I stood there and talked with him for about another fifteen minutes. Suddenly, he says that he has just completed restoring his car and wants to join our club and go on our tours. He thinks it sounds like fun! We are eager to bring in another one and ask what it is he has?

A 1940 Ford convertible with complete Corvette running gear.

We were both still polite. We praised him on what a wonderful car it was. We told him there were many great clubs that have wonderful activities that would be perfect for his car. But he likes our cars and wants to join our club. We still are nice, try to explain that 1940 was not built between 1913 and 1928 (a requirement), and a Corvette running gear is NOT the original engine. He cannot understand the difference.

Not understanding a simple "mission statement" is an educational issue. 1940 is not between 1913 and 1928.

We join clubs to be "included" with people of similar interests. And we often join them because "I want to see your car that I like" more than because I want you to see mine. This is one of the biggest reasons to go on club tours. This becomes more true the earlier you go in automobiles. Model Ts do not tour well with cars of the '50s. Other horseless carriages more so.

Preserving history so that others in the future may see what it was like way back when is a big part of the antique automobile hobby. Putting a modern drive-train under a modified-beyond-recognition body is not preserving history.

I have always had friends with hotrods. I do appreciate them. Most hotrodders are great people. Many of them do understand the difference between hotrods and antiques. Many hotrodders also restore cars. Often they do some of the best restorations because they do understand the difference. Also certainly, any car that is too far gone as a candidate for restoration is better hotrodded than scrapped. Making something beautiful from a junk pile is an art form. And of course, one can choose to hotrod anything he can afford to do.

I would consider participating in the "Speedsters" topic under the AACA forum. But I don't want to offend those that want non-antiques too much. Again, it becomes a problem of education. Those that want "era correct" speedsters have had a difficult time for over forty years. Outcasts from the bulk of "true antique automobilsts", turned off by most "speedster" events, they seem to not fit in anywhere. Several attempts to create a speedster club have failed because a consensus could not be reached on what should be acceptable.

I am not a purist. I consider it an unreasonable goal. There is too much that cannot be reasonably duplicated. Tires we can buy today are wonderful! But not quite right. Paint and upholstery materials are not the same as they were 90 years ago. Often, parts from some other car or model must be modified to work. But an antique should, I think, be made as representative of how they were "back in their day" as is reasonable. If you are trying to preserve history.

I often say "I want my cars to look they were pulled right out of a vintage photograph". And as far as posting photos goes, I have. However I am not too good at dealing with things computer. My computer was just upgraded (an unwanted necessity), so I have to figure out how to use the new photo program I have. May take awhile.

Thank you all.

Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

[wayne sheldon]

I type slow.

My question (maybe poorly put), is more about education and understanding the difference. I hesitate to tell someone proud of his project that it is not an antique, because I don't want to offend him. Yet I am troubled by an apparent lack of understanding that there is a difference. It is not a question of one is right and the other is wrong. Hotrodding is an art form. I appreciate that and hope others do also. Building a model T speedster with a few common '20s parts and a lot of reproduction items is continuing a tradition that has continued (uninterrupted even by WWII) for more than a hundred years. Making it "era correct" requires understanding and a bit more effort.

The line is not difficult to draw. The line is impossible to draw. There is a wide range of right in this. Whether you want your car to be era correct or not, is up to you.

State requirements and "trashing the Mona Lisa" I would want mostly left out here.

Thank you again.

Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Weighing in as I can proudly take credit for suggesting the Speedster section in this forum (I like to think I had a couple good ideas for the forum - glad to see this one took off!!) - my reasons were two fold:

1) To provide an outlet to a topic that was generating strong interest every time an individual posting went up in the General section

2) for selfish reasons - to learn about an area of interest to me.

I do recognize there is a line of sorts between a Speedster and a Hot Rod, although most of what I have seen I would catagorize in the Speedster category... Now thinking of taking the plunge!

I hope people enjoy it overall...

[Rusty_OToole]

Let's take another angle on this. A speedster might one day be restored if a suitable body turns up. The chassis is still there in running condition. But if the chassis is scrapped it is gone forever. Since all speedsters I know of were made out of chassis that had no body, or the body was too far gone to restore, a speedster may be a way of preserving a car that would otherwise disappear.

This is not entirely fanciful. On another board about a week ago there were pictures of a 20s Studebaker touring body with California top that had been stored under cover for more than 50 years. If the owner went looking for a suitable chassis he might find an unrestored car with the body shot, or he might find a speedster with a good running chassis.

Edited February 22, 2014 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[whtbaron]

As one of the renegades that frequents the Speedster forum and isn't afraid of trying to force a square peg into a round hole, I have this to say. There are over 80 places on this forum to talk about restoring cars as close to original as the owner has talent and bankroll. There is one location where we turn a blind eye to the modification of said auto's. Sure when we start putting engines newer than 1930 into them, we are blurring the lines between hot rod and speedster, but I have yet to see anything posted there that I would classify as hot rod over a speedster. My personal feelings? If I come across a car that is too valuable, complete, and in a fairly easily restored condition I would restore it. But that pile of parts out behind the barn? If I can turn that into a cool driver that will look like a traditional speedster driving down the road, I'm going to turn into it with torches, welders and wrenches. It's just part of our hobby that doesn't have much of a home and right here with the other old parts is as good as any. Just because a car is modified, doesn't make it a good candidate for the HAMB. I also frequent that site, and many projects also get ignored there because they don't fit somebody's idea of what a "traditional" hot rod is supposed to be. Live and let live. If you can't stand the sound of crying sheetmetal when somebody cuts into it, ignore the Speedster section. If you have something a little different you would like to post there, I think overall you will find us to be a pretty forgiving bunch.

[plymouthcranbrook]

As one of the renegades that frequents the Speedster forum and isn't afraid of trying to force a square peg into a round hole, I have this to say. There are over 80 places on this forum to talk about restoring cars as close to original as the owner has talent and bankroll. There is one location where we turn a blind eye to the modification of said auto's. Sure when we start putting engines newer than 1930 into them, we are blurring the lines between hot rod and speedster, but I have yet to see anything posted there that I would classify as hot rod over a speedster. My personal feelings? If I come across a car that is too valuable, complete, and in a fairly easily restored condition I would restore it. But that pile of parts out behind the barn? If I can turn that into a cool driver that will look like a traditional speedster driving down the road, I'm going to turn into it with torches, welders and wrenches. It's just part of our hobby that doesn't have much of a home and right here with the other old parts is as good as any. Just because a car is modified, doesn't make it a good candidate for the HAMB. I also frequent that site, and many projects also get ignored there because they don't fit somebody's idea of what a "traditional" hot rod is supposed to be. Live and let live. If you can't stand the sound of crying sheetmetal when somebody cuts into it, ignore the Speedster section. If you have something a little different you would like to post there, I think overall you will find us to be a pretty forgiving bunch.

Very well said.

[Rusty_OToole]

I've been tossing around the idea of building a speedster or sports car myself. Before you get your panties in a wad it is a 55 Dodge 4 door sedan that was hit bad on the front end, stripped for parts, and rusted out. The choice is not to keep it good or make it into a speedster, or restore it or make it into a speedster. The choice is to fix it up or sell it for scrap iron. If any of you anti speedster guys wants to "save" it, you can have it for scrap price.

[wayne sheldon]

I must say, the response from whtbaron is one of the things I was looking for. I do want people that want to build these "in between" cars to have a place to feel at home. If that is to be a corner of the AACA, so be it. I don't know if whtbaron can answer for many of the regulars on the Speedster section or not. I do wonder if the many (any or most?) of those there would be offended by some comments I could be tempted to make? (It is nearly impossible to offend me). I really don't want to rain on anybodies parade there, but I do think people should understand the difference between historically restored or preserved cars and other things whether they are hotrods or what.

Other responses/comments.

In a sense, speedsters are definitely the forerunners of hotrods. However, there are a few key differences. The word "speedster" was one of the commonly used words for such cars way back in the day. They were also known as "bugs", "cut-downs", simply "race (or racing) cars" and at least a dozen less common names. The word "speedster" is the most commonly recognized and fitting term today. The term "hotrod" was coined (according to legend) about 1947 or '48. The big difference between them, however, is that with a speedster, you take a regular car. The first thing you do is throw away the body! You use the basic chassis with or without modifications to help performance. You buy or build a body that resembles a race car of some type. It is fast! It handles well! It (hopefully) looks good!

With a hotrod, you take the same car, keep the body, throw away the chassis, and replace it with parts that are ten to fifty or more years newer. During the "speedster era", you could not replace anything with something much newer. Speedsters were usually built from cars only a few years old, although sometimes they could be about ten years old. Any more than that was rare. Many speedsters were even built upon new chassis. It is one of those things that has been discussed (argued) for a long time. Many people with a lot of interest in the history of speedsters believe that the speedster era ended either with the introduction of the new model A Ford for 1928 or the crash of '29.

In truth, it has never ended, just dwindled down a lot. The first speedsters were built shortly after 1900, almost as soon as there were cars available complete enough to cut down. The first "model T" speedsters were built in 1908 by Ford's design and development departments to road test the experimental T chassis. In 1909, Ford built two special cars in the model T plant alongside the rest of the cars. These two cars were run in the race from New York to Seattle in 1909. In 1910, several dealers across the country built cars for local exhibitions. By 1911, everybody was getting into the act and model T speedsters have been built in every calender year since and probably on for many more years to come. Certainly, model T speedsters are one of the longest running automotive related hobbies.

As to the H.A.M.B. I previously stated that many hotrodders do understand the difference between antiques and hotrods. There are several long-running threads on the H.A.M.B. that are all about racing cars of various types and the history surrounding them. I am quite impressed by their knowledge and passion for the subject of early racing. I have a couple of the threads bookmarked and look in on them occasionally.

For me, I am an antique automobile guy and lean toward the horseless carriage era. I also like speedsters. But I like them to be as era correct as most antique automobiles that are still driven.

[A. Ballard 35R]

Please don't forget that the speedster was a not uncommon body style on many pre WWI cars. Other styles included roadster, raceabout, semi-racer, etc., all of which were standard factory body styles.

The Packard 1930 Speedster is the newest factory built car I can think of that used the term. Perhaps West can think of some newer examples.

[Lahti35]

Right on WB... right on.

[whtbaron]

I think a lot of us would love that period correct Pierce Arrow chassis under an appropriately styled aluminum body in our garage. It becomes a question of cost, practicality and availability. Not everyone in the hobby can afford a half million dollar car sitting in a climatized garage, so there is going to be varying levels of interest. If my heated shop ever gets done, my project will be one of many low buck versions that will have to incorporate some newer pieces for safety (because I want a car I can drive the lugnuts off of every chance I get), cost and reliability. That is a comment that is echoed many times in the builds of the "incorrect" speedsters. When you think of it, the very first cars were more speedster than production car. Prior to production lines, cars were built one at a time from people trying to craft transportation from a pile of parts

[Rusty_OToole]

When you put it that way, there were factory built speedster type cars from the very first. Some were custom built on stock chassis, some were catalog models like the Stutz Bearcat. Many makers offered Sport models, or boat tail speedsters in the twenties and early thirties. I think the last model of this kind was the Auburn boat tail of 1936.

The depression killed off this kind of car, as it did a lot of fun things. For nearly 20 years the practical values of room, comfort, economy and long life trumped fun and excitement.

Then the imported British sports cars put a little fun back into the auto world and the American manufacturers followed suit with their own sport models. Carribean, Eldorado, Corvette, Thunderbird, Kaiser Darrin and Nash Healey were sneered at for not being true sports cars but they were never meant to be. They were a revival of the sport models of the twenties.

So, there is a long tradition of home built speedsters as well as the factory made equivalent.

[A. Ballard 35R]

Rusty, thanks for the addition of the Auburn boat tail speedster which certainly was later than the Packard 734.

[Binger]

One thing I think that many people building a Speedster or a traditional Hot Rod that is "period correct" that many antique guys understand is about proper hardware and fittings. How many Period correct speedsters have stress bolts and nylon lock nuts all over them? Even a simple thing that sticks out to a restorer is aircraft type hose clamps. Many people building these cars as well as a lot of people new to the hobby don't think about these things. How many antique cars from the '20s out there have rubber valve stems and incorrect grease fittings. Even a few Grease cups on my '14 Buick have been replaced with modern zerks for ease of maintenance. (You cant see them because they are under the car. LOL).

Another thing to consider is documented race vehicles. AACA makes room for them. Take a look at for example of a documented record breaking land speed car from El Mirage raced in 1948. By all means a Hotrod when it was built. I have been away from judging for several years but has AACA allowed for Hot rods built by say George Barris or Ed Roth? Produced in the '50s and '60s and highly documented. You have to wonder how different they are from a custom built Deusenburg or Packard or Pierce of the '30s. There is a fine line between Fully restored show cars, Touring cars, drivers, and so on. How many model As in the AACA have overdrives and hydraulic brakes and souped up motors with OHV conversions?

Lots of grey area here. I think it is all about education and the owners intentions and how they choose to enjoy their cars. It ranges from polishing every nut and bolt to get the senior grand national award, driving down the highway, attending a tour or just being able to put grampa's model T through the 4th of july parade. I like to embrace any interest in old cars. Especially (IMO) any car made before 1950.

Edited February 23, 2014 by Binger (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Rusty, thanks for the addition of the Auburn boat tail speedster which certainly was later than the Packard 734.

Mr. Ballard

Are you related to Hyde Ballard, who at one time owned a 734 speedster (Also AACA president many years ago)?

A relatively late-model Speedster would have been the Porsche of around 1955. It was a stripped-down car equipped with very few amenities and cost a lot less than its counterparts.

[carlisle1926]

I'm the guy that is building one of those speedsters that disgusts some that obviously the original poster if referring to. Judge not lest ye be judged. I live in Texas. So as to the theory of my pile of junk having to meet 2014 standards, it does not. We are pretty lenient down here with antique cars and homemade hot rods.

I'm 40 and have never owned a hot rod in my life. I was the weird kid in school that would almost get into fist fights with other classmates that wanted to convert a 6 volt car to 12 volts! I still am a purist and have nothing but admiration for the work that purist do, but over the years and a string of illnesses, I've learned that I can't make everyone vote the same way as me, so fretting over those 12volt conversions was really just shortening my life. My daily driver was my Great Grandmothers 1954 Chevrolet 2door hardtop in the 1980's/90's. I insisted that it be 6 volt down to the tube radio. I wasn't very popular in high school because I didn't blend in with the cool kids with their big stereos and their cars with the Virgin Mary painted on the hood. In the 1990's my daily driver was an unrestored/preserved 1934 REO car and I insisted that it remained 1934 correct as much as possible.

I've always had a passion for the brass era cars, but with my choices in careers, I'm certain that will always be out of the reach of my pockets. So I had an idea. Why not build something that has the look, but could be made for pennies. Then I thought, well since it will be assembled from a pile of junk, why not make it able to go a little faster than a real brass car and not have to be so stressed about some "modern" driver driving over me on a back road. I have lost several friends who were driving on safe back roads in their Model Ts and were killed or maimed by someone who rear ended them. I've had several unmodified chain drive American LaFrance pumper trucks over the years, and as much fun as they are to drive, the brakes are almost non-existent and the T- head engines are amazingly expensive to run, and even these low mileage fire trucks could rarely make it for 10 miles without a major brake down. So, I decided to find a bunch of cast off parts that were all destined for a Chinese smelter, and cobble them together as a complete and total bastardization of a speedster. No such speedster ever existed, but it will now. So the question was, did I want be remembered as the guy that was one of the sheep people that always followed the heard to please the crowd, or did I want to live a little and be the guy that is remembered as the guy that did something different and enjoyed what life he had left. I chose to live a little this time. Most people my age and younger HATE the AACA crowd that I have respected and idolized my entire life. I truly wish that I could afford to do better, but this is the best that I can do. The chassis that I started with, the cowl and many other major parts, were all destined for a metal recycling yard. Some of the parts were bought off of Ebay after they had been listed repeatedly for many months with no bidders. Overall, I think we are all on the same team wanting to enjoy and preserve antique vehicles as much as humanly possible.

Edited February 24, 2014 by carlisle1926 (see edit history)

[A. Ballard 35R]

The passion and experience carlisle26 describes is very admirable. Your comments about ALF pumpers converted to speedsters is one I can relate to since a good friend of mine did a conversion on a massive 6 cylinder pumper followed by a more manageable 4 cylinder pumper. I drove both plus another one and know exactly what you are talking about. As far as I'm concerned, you have shown yourself as a real antique car person who has every right to have fun with a made up speedster and have some fun.

West, the Porsche Speedsters are ones I should have remembered but didn't think of. As I recall, they were great performance cars in their SCCA class (FP?) and usually turned in better times than larger engine cars.

As far as the 734 Packard Speedster phaeton is concerned you are right on the money. I still have a picture of the car taken over 70 years ago with my sister and me standing on the running board. As you know, the car was sold to Guy Slaughter in Hawaii and is now back on the mainland.

Just to confuse the speedster nomenclature further, the 1930 Packard data booklet lists the MODEL 734 SPEEDSTER EIGHT with no less than 5 body types. There were 2 roadster bodies(422,452), a phaeton (445), a Victoria Coupe (447), and a sedan (443).

Sorry for taking this thread a bit off track.

[West Peterson]

I would love to see that picture and add it to my files. Send to my e-mail if your willing.

The nomenclature for the the two roadsters is 442 (boattail) and 452 (rumbleseat roadster). There was an incorrect listing for the boattail somewhere, and it continues to be picked up incorrectly, including in Turnquist's book.

Have you ever seen this factory photo of a Packard Speedster coupe, listed as 499? Must have been a concept???

[Dave Mellor NJ]

"I think the last model of this kind was the Auburn boat tail of 1936."

Don't forget about the 63-67 Corvettes and the 71-73 Rivieras. They were throwbacks to the boattails of old although they weren't speedsters.