Restoring 2000 model cars

[bferg]

At the risk of sounding like an old man, which I am, I am interested in the thinking of this group on whether or not present day cars will be restored 25-35 years from now. I can't imagine it happening - Just think of the wiring harness alone. There must be miles and miles of wires in a 2000 car. Then there are computer chips @#$%^%&! What do you think? Next question, if the restoration of old cars does cease, what will that do to the value of the cars that have been restored?

[Studemax]

Good question.

I keep telling my Studebaker club that the future will consist of people fondly remembering their grandad's Lexus.

We better keep driving our old cars where the kids can see them.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Yes, good question - I tend to think not, with the exception of some limited edition performance models. I think this for a few reasons: Cars of today are viewed more like appliances, this is not to say that they are not well made, in fact, most vehicles of today are pretty dependable regardless of make. BUT, Society's view on the automobile is different. Today, people don't gather at the local dealers waiting for the new model to come out, they are not the novelty they were at one time. Secondly, all collectible items have eras where there is value and interest, and eras where the interest just is not there. Lastly, the degree of difficulty in restoration will play a role, and manufacturers are not likely to produce parts beyond the required time frames for discontinued models. One wonders if the complexity of some of today's parts would put them out of reach for a reproducer. Best bet for anyone looking for say, a lexus like grandad had is buy a good original. Having a 60s car and a 1930 car I can tell you the prospect of a full restoration for the 60s car is much pricier than the simpler, older car. Add today's technology and you can see where that would go.

I am by no means a new car "hater" - in fact, I like to drive nice wheels for my everyday stuff but that is what I think the future looks like. I could be wrong, and am not criticizing anyone enthusiastic about newer vehicles but I think the golden age of collecting will cap off around 1975 give or take, with a few exceptions. A positive to this - it doesn't get any better than right now, with club support, parts and interest in just about anything that rolls - enjoy!

If you have seen the "Classic or not" thread you know that has been a pretty popular one, with lots of opinions. Not sure where it will all shake out but yes, there will be both modified and restored cars from 1975 on back. Not too many of these are being junked anymore if they resemble anything restorable. There will be a market - just try buying a brass car today and all those enthusiasts are supposedly gone..

[1937hd45]

I just can't understand the mindset of someone interested is restoring sonething 25 years from now. This the ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE CLUB of AMERICA, there are unrestored cars sitting around that are 100+ years old. What is wrong with with restoring an ANTIQUE rather that waiting 25 years for a 2007 vehicle to be club worthy?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> just can't understand the mindset of someone interested is restoring sonething 25 years from now.</div></div>

Simple intellectual curiosity?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bferg</div><div class="ubbcode-body">At the risk of sounding like an old man, which I am, I am interested in the thinking of this group on whether or not present day cars will be restored 25-35 years from now. I can't imagine it happening - Just think of the wiring harness alone. There must be miles and miles of wires in a 2000 car. Then there are computer chips @#$%^%&! What do you think? Next question, if the restoration of old cars does cease, what will that do to the value of the cars that have been restored? </div></div>

I've stated several times over the years here my thoughts on this. Practically speaking there is no way restoration as we know it will be possible for cars after 1989, and it's nearly impossible for cars after 1979. The complexities involved (as you've described here) are just too much to overcome.

That doesn't mean people can't cosmetically revive a car here and there with new seat fabric, trim, paint, etc. However the age of insuring that every factory applied bit and bauble is perfect is essentially over. It would take hours just to judge the printing and decals on an average wiring harness, for instance.

However that's not the end of the old car hobby. Post 1979 cars will be collected mainly in a manner similar to how we collect HPOF cars now. Preservation will be the new restoration, and I wouldn't be too surprised if people find that preferable. I think the bobby will be more tuned to enjoying the cars as cars instead of as objects to be perfected in beauty contests.

As far as value is concerned, all cars will always have value--restored or otherwise. I cannot see how value would decline for a (current) antique, at least not very much. However there could be exceptions for cars that are more collectible for people who remember them new than for later generations (pony cars, muscle cars, etc.), if they've been preserved in numbers greater than future demand would require.

What is clear is that what is being preserved today (and being sacrificed) is <span style="text-decoration: underline">it</span> for the hobby for generations to come. When the last Willys Americar has it's motor swapped for something out of a crate, or the last Fiat Strada is crushed, that'll be it. It's not likely that there will be too many more "barn find" stories of the type with which we've all grown up.

[Guest Skyking]

I couldn't imagine trying to restore a new car of today 25 years from now. Just the body work alone would be impossible. Anyone on this forum that does body work would tell you this. Then there's the interior to contend with. Hell, you can't even find a single screw in a new car. I wouldn't know where to start. Plus the computers and wiring,...... forget it. That's why they are called <span style="font-weight: bold">throw away cars....... </span>

[R W Burgess]

Depends on the car, in my opinion. We have antique vehicles on the show field today that have incorrect items unseen by eyes of judges.

Wiring harnesses are made today to make electronic engines operate in different makes of vehicles they were not designed for. As far as wiring harnesses, where there is a will, there is a way. The harnesses have plastic coverings that hide what's actually inside, so the covering themselves are all that needs to be accurate.

Doesn't the judging manual say, "as they looked/appeared from the dealer"? Appearances can be very deceiving!

Wayne

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: R W Burgess</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Depends on the car, in my opinion. We have antique vehicles on the show field today that have incorrect items unseen by eyes of judges.

</div></div>

Wayne, I don't think you can compare antique wire harnesses with todays..........todays cars would be a complete nightmare to rewire.

[R W Burgess]

Sky, harnesses are made today to make any popular late model engine operate in any car you want to put it in. Ask the rodders. They do it all the time. These independent shoppes will make anything you want from scratch. Ask J446/Jim about what can be done, if your mind is set on it.

The external cosmetics covering the harness is what you will have to deal with. Like I said, when money is no object, there's nothing man can't design or build, in my opinion, of course.

Wayne

[Peter Gariepy]

Were there is a will, there is a way.

This same question was being asked of cars of the 50s, in the 1950s. To complicated, to much plastic, no character, etc. etc. Now look at them.

This very question created division in the hobby (and AACA). It's the very reason that clubs like the CHVA were formed, first because the AACA was limited to pre-1936? autos, then when they switched to 25 years old and older.

I'm sure a few oldtimers here can recollect this history. (I wasnt even born then)

Peter

[JalopyBob]

Yes I believe that people will still be restoring our current cars in 25 to 35 years. They are not too complicated. If they were, we would not be able to have them repaired from mechanical problems or collisions now. Cars like a 2000 Corvette, or an SSR, Ford GT, new Tbird, Mustang Cobra, will be saved from the crushers. But will anyone be doing a full restoration of my 99 Olds 88 50th anniversary sedan? Maybe not.

[Ron Green]

Restoring 2000 or newer cars probably won’t be easy or cheap but doable. A few vehicles like the Corvette, Ford GT, etc may even have after market support. Parts for the rest won’t be as easy to obtain as the manufactures won’t make or stock parts unlike the 50’ and 60’s where they would run huge batches of parts and the dealers would actually carry stock.

Their values will probably be similar to today with the older vehicles, it will cost you much more to restore them then they are worth.

[1937hd45]

Will there be junk yards in 25 years? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! The local yard is shredding cars as fast as he can, China is buying! $200.00 per lump and the rolloffs keep delivering to him.

[Guest Skyking]

Well, my guess is that people here don't do body work. Where are you going to get the metal from?? How will you weld new panels in?? You lean on a new car you create a dent. Good luck!

[ted sweet]

if you agree with this think the AACA will die too.People restore/collect cars they remember.

[R W Burgess]

Exactly right Ted. I remember the traveling salesman I used to see go by my school bus stop once a week back in 1962. A maroon 1962 Chevy Super Sport, rare in my neigborhood, wasn't even a 409, but wow! Kids notice these things.

So, I guess someday we'll have those Z24 Cavalier's bringing back great memories for the "adult kids" of the day!

Wayne

[1937hd45]

Keep it up! Welcone to AACA, car club for EVERYTHING, that caters to none.

[R W Burgess]

What do you suggest Bob?

If there is a permanent cut off date, eventually all of the old car collectors will be gone with no one new to carry on the tradition. The young folks are the only chance this club has of surviving. They come in because they like what they grew up with and then they get interested in older cars, brass, or whatever. It's a sharing experience to show a love of all antique automobiles to everyone. Our very existence depends on this!

Wayne

[1937hd45]

Wayne, can we give the non stop "Young Members" search a rest? Has anyone thought of draging in 50-70 year olds, the ones with money and the ability to invest it valuable/historic vehicles?

[R W Burgess]

Personally Bob, I think we have a better chance with the young.

As people get over 60 years of age, fewer want to invest their retirement into new hobbies. Most, not all, with expendable cash, already have hobbies that they invest in. Young people seem to take more chances with their cash. Notice the MacMansions all around your area, Bob. I'd bet most of those are owned by 30 to 40 somethings!

Wayne

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This same question was being asked of cars of the 50s, in the 1950s. To complicated, to much plastic, no character, etc. etc. Now look at them. </div></div>

Yes Pete, but none of them required a "clean room" to remanufacture microcircutry, or high speed dot matrix printers to replicate accurately the markings on everything from tires to vital decals to vacuum lines.

I'm sure that a Dynaflow looked hopelessly complicated to a shadetree mechanic in 1946. However even at the time it was apparant that with patient study and the right tools those new fangled trannys were repairable. It may be <span style="text-decoration: underline">possible</span> to replicate all of the things in a 2006 Malibu, but how could anyone do it in the family garage?...let alone do it with anything like a reasonable budget for the end product?

I'm sure people will fix up and collect cars of interest in the future. However the nature of that activity will change. Our apparant obsession with correct date codes/hose colors/clamps/factory inspection marks/etc. is doomed in this more complicated world.

And like I said, that ain't all bad!

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave@Moon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

It may be <span style="text-decoration: underline">possible</span> to replicate all of the things in a 2006 Malibu, but how could anyone do it in the family garage?...let alone do it with anything like a reasonable budget for the end product?

</div></div>

Exactly,........and don't forget, a good restoration shop now charges up to ,as I've seen, $105.00 an hour. What would it be like in 25 years?

[Matt Harwood]

Now just imagine what the hot-rodders will be doing to today's cars in 25-30 years! Batteries, hybrids, diesels and fuel cells in place of our beloved fuel injected gas-burners!

[novaman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Exactly,........and don't forget, a good restoration shop now charges up to ,as I've seen, $105.00 an hour. What would it be like in 25 years? </div></div>

Apparently you haven't been in a new car dealership's shop lately. $80 to $100/hour

[Guest Skyking]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novaman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Apparently you haven't been in a new car dealership's shop lately. $80 to $100/hour </div></div>

Oh, I'm aware of that....there was a reason they made them complicated.

[Guest ZondaC12]

Figured this would be a neat little addition to this discussion. WARNING: the link is NOT for the faint of heart. The sad result of what happens when you combine a 1987 Cougar LS with the quantity of road salt Buffalo, NY has to offer: http://www.foxtbirdcougarforums.com/showthread.php?t=17304

And this guy is REPAIRING that floor. And to think I got all bent out of shape over a silver dollar sized hole in my floor (that I patched recently) and some bubbling on one of my fenders on MY cougar.

Secondarily several other members on that board have swapped out wiring harnesses, entire DASHBOARDS and the forests of wires and other junk inside them. I will say though they must really be brave and know much more what theyre doing than I, I wouldn't even consider doing that stuff with my car. I'm going the "HPOF" route that Dave outlined. Besides I love nothing more than the survivor cars, and I want one soooo bad so years from now the cougar will be just that.

But I guess some degree of restoration can be done even on the modern stuff! Woohoo!

(oh and just for what its worth, there are a couple more spots on that car that are WORSE, if that's believable! I gotta dig through the forum and find the pictures he posted of the car when he first joined not too long ago, made my stomach turn!!!)

[joe_padavano]

I have to laugh at this thread and the similar letter published in Auto Restorer Mag a few months ago. They sound like the "experts" who were sure man would never fly or the famous NY Times editoral that riduculed Robert Goddard when he said rockets would allow man to go to the moon.

Unless the internal combustion engine is outlawed in 25-30 years, OF COURSE current year cars will be restored then. First, it IS NOT that difficult to work on the computer controls. You just need the right tools. I broke down and bought an OTC Genisys electronic test tool a few years ago to service my newer cars. The software is available and updated annually. The wiring harnesses may be more complex, but the quality of insulation and connectors is orders of magnitude better than in 50s and 60s vintage cars. Connectors are now weather sealed with aircraft quality connectors. I would also suggest that people who have not worked on computer controlled cars should open their eyes and investigate what aftermarket support is ALREADY available for these vehicles.

The big problem will be the push for automotive "recycling". Many manufacturers are working on using materials and fabrication methods that allow new cars to be quickly and efficiently recycled into their component materials for reuse. THIS, if anything, will restrict the availability of used parts in the same way that pre-war cars were recycled for steel in WWII.

People will always want to restore the performance cars of their youth. You can guarantee that Vipers, Z06 Corvettes, Mustangs, Honda S2000s, and Evos will DEFINITELY be retstored in the future.

[Twitch]

In 35 years- 2042 do you really think anyone is going to be firing up any IC car for any purpose with no gasoline?

[Dave@Moon]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> People will always want to restore the performance cars of their youth. You can guarantee that Vipers, Z06 Corvettes, Mustangs, Honda S2000s, and Evos will DEFINITELY be retstored in the future. </div></div>

The typical 2007 automobile is comprised of between 20,000 and 30,000 individual parts. Many, many of those parts are model-specific, often year specific, and frequently specific to individual equipment groupings (i.e. different brakes for the same car depending on transmission or tire choice). Even for 1980s cars just the lack of air conditioning can make for hundreds of differing parts in a given car model.

<span style="font-style: italic">(As an aside, in 1987 the State of Pennsylvania (</span>my then employer<span style="font-style: italic">) stopped buying non-airconditioned cars because they could not sell the used cars at auction even to recyclers. The non-a/c cars had too many unique & unsaleable parts. I once had to wait 2 months for Ford to make a run of exhaust recirculation bypass pipes for a 4 cyl. 1982 Ford Fairmont w/ auto. w/o a/c. The entire country was without a supply of this dealer-only part. The car was 5 years old.)</span>

For the high-end/high-interest models you mention, especially those with a limited array of available options/powertrains, there may well be a viable market in NOS and used parts substantial enough to restore a car in the "correct manner" as we now define it. <span style="text-decoration: underline">By far most cars</span> will be lucky if there's a supply of parts that will simply work to keep them running. Either way it will be a far more herculean task than it has been, for both the restorer and the supplier.

That is why I don't think people are going to be sweating the date tagging of vacuum hoses on these cars in future years.

[R W Burgess]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> That is why I don't think people are going to be sweating the date tagging of vacuum hoses on these cars in future years. </div></div>

Probably won't be the first time that there has to be a change in judging rules. Man has always been able to adapt to the changes in time.

Heck, I threw away my family's "heirloom club", because I found out my wife can really hurt me with it.

Wayne

[mastertech]

I dont think that there are too many cars out there today that will be worth anythin in the future, other than a few like corvette prowlers vipers mustangs and such, I cant afford them now let alone in the future. But he thing is like some one said before how are you going to weld, find good metal? Well right now you can not weld most new cars because they are made of quiet steel-- two peices of metal with a peice of plastic sandwiched inbetween to keep noise down. As far as engine work a basic engine still works the same its the electronics that mkes it run . I have worked in a garage since 1969 and have seen many changes some for the good some not. Last week I had to go to training for the new Chrysler minivan one of the things we were instructed on was how the heated seats work- you push the heated seat button a signal is sent to the dmrl/dmrr(powerwindow switches left side and right side not called switches anymore they are mini computers) which acknowledges the request by grounding one of the indactor lamp circuits and sending a CAN-ihs bus message ( a basic networking system but this one is call interior high speed) Then the CCN ( this is what we use to call the gauge cluster which is now a computer/body computer)recives the message and sends a LIN bus ( one wire instead of two as in the CAN bus(CAN is controller area network) to the heated seat module which is also a small computer under the front seat then your butt will start to get warm and all it took was three computers and appx 50 feet of wire to do this. dont ask how the radio works. As it is a computer even has its own harddrive.And dont even think of trying repair the harness if somethin happens to it because as i said before 50 feet yes the harness has to be right leangth and proper copper wire just not your everyday wire either or nothing will work. And since there are no young people getting into the auto repair who is going to fix these cars in the future? your regular guy just dosent have the training to do this. And yes there is shortage of good auto techs. yes if there is a will there is a way but will everything work? I dont see todays cars being restored and if so at what cost? Where are the parts comming from? We cant even get replacement electronic parts for one that i am working on at work because of nobody is repairing them, and new parts are not aviable. and this is on a 2006 dodge truck. So what is going to happen? I guess we will just have to wait and see.

Melvin Schwentner

A.S.E Mastertech

Chrysler powertrain spec.

[R W Burgess]

You're right, Melvin.

Sounds like a nightmare to me, but unlike the Corvette shows I've been to, not many AACA shows require you to prove that "everything" works.

I wonder if we should start. The first Vette show I went had me flipping my headlights over to have them turned on(I hate to abuse those motors), then went through other checks of the horn, turn signals....gee are these guys part time DMV inspectors???

[ted sweet]

Mopar Nationals judging is like that too.

[Restorer32]

CCCA checks the color of the coolant in the radiator and it better not show rust.

[Pontiac59]

Watch that documentary on what guys in Cuba were doing to keep old American cars on the road. Welding with pieces of chain link fence and raw electricity, making new asbestos brake shoes up with their bare hands... there will always be people restoring these cars, if just for the challenge of it. Where parts aren't available, they'll make stuff from scratch, just like you have to do if you're restoring something like a 1930 Guilder truck...

The 80s and early to mid 90s cars aren't too bad to mess with, there's a little more wiring to contend with and sometimes you need to re-engineer things. I think the biggest hassle will be when plastic parts deteriorate - I just swapped a power window door onto my '89 Suburban off an '86 and the plastic top of the door panel is like crumbling apart... now that one I can get a repop or hit a junkyard for a used one, but that's because they made that style from '73-'87 for all their trucks, and 88-91 for everything over 3/4 ton plus the Suburban and Blazer - there's still millions of them out there, and enough guys into them to make selling reproductions worthwhile.

But if I needed the same panel for a car they only made a few years, and wasn't super popular, I might have to pay through the nose for it, if I can get a replacement at all. I might have to find a good one and use it as a buck to make a mold and reproduce them myself. But you run into that now with some of the older cars. I guess a lot of '65 Ford full-size car stuff is one year only and hard to find, for instance.

[ex98thdrill]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there is a permanent cut off date, eventually all of the old car collectors will be gone with no one new to carry on the tradition. The young folks are the only chance this club has of surviving. They come in because they like what they grew up with and then they get interested in older cars, brass, or whatever. It's a sharing experience to show a love of all antique automobiles to everyone. Our very existence depends on this!</div></div>I'm a little late to get on this post Wayne, but I agree with you. If you want to turn people off and kill AACA, your best bet is to turn your back and thumb your nose at the young people. There was a point in time several years ago where I felt that AACA was heading in that direction, but as a group AACA has been able to wake up and make changes before the damage was irreversable.

I do feel that the Mustang Club, and NCRS will always be around as long as Mustangs and Corvettes are built. As for clubs like the Early Ford V8 Club, Willys Overland, Studebaker, etc. will most likely be gone before AACA would. Some of the other clubs could also gone, but then there's nothing saying GM or Chrsyler could decide to bring back Oldsmobile and Plymouth names. It wasn't too long ago when the Sterling name was brought back into the truck market after a lengthy absence.

As for the future, I see the muscle cars and trucks keeping AACA going. The trucks still seem more user friendly when it comes to repairing and restoring. With trucks like the 'Lil Red Express, Warlock, Power Wagon, SS-454, Choo-Choo Customs, Bigfoot Cruiser, Eddie Bauer, Jeep Laredos, etc. I feel that the interest will still be there. The truck market is a lot bigger than it was in the 30's & 40's, and there are already a lot of places already remanufacturing late model truck parts.

As long as we keep doing what we're doing and accepting change, we should be okay.

[Guest South_paw]

I think the hobby will be fine. The future generation is much more comfortable with computers,chips,electronics, programs & such. My boys(12&8)would be right at home plugging the laptop into a car and fine tuning the engine **BUT** if I gave my boys a set of points and a condenser they would be at a loss.

I would even say that more cars will be able to stay road worthy for the future hobbyist. Lets say 20 yrs from now a 2008 CTS throws a code. Plug in the laptop, get the code, bad sensor. Replace sensor and move on. Worse case, go online to the AACA forum(in 2028) post the code and I'm sure their will be folks with the cure.

Thirty years from now, when someone says "You'll never be able to work on these cars". Will they be talking about a 1958 Cadillac or a 2008 Cadillac? Hopefully some of us will be around to straighten them out

Happy New Year!

Lou

[Rusty_OToole]

Does anyone remember a guy named Robert Gottleib? He had an antique car column in Motor Trend back in the 50s. The first antique car column I know of.

In 1957 someone asked him the same question. What 1957 cars will be the classic cars of the future?

His answer: None.

In the first place, the antique and classic cars of the prewar era are valuable because they are special. Largely handmade, and noticably superior to the run of the mill mass produced cars.

Today (1957) there are NO custom made cars comparable to the Pierce Arrows, Packards etc of the classic car era.

Secondly cars of today (1957) are built differently. On the old cars you have brass, steel and iron parts that are made to be taken apart and repaired. You can rebuild practically everything on the car.

On the new cars you have fuel pumps that are swaged together, upholstery that is made of vinyl molded with heat in giant presses, cheap chrome made of pot metal that pits and crumbles in a few years. Unlike the great classics these cars will be totally unrestorable in 10 years when the factory stops supplying parts.

So it stands to reason no one will want to restore the cheap, tinny, mass produced cars of 1957. And it would be impossible to do so if you tried.

Now let's see what possiblities he overlooked among those run of the mill 1957 cars.

57 Chev BelAir hardtop

57 Corvette 4 speed with fuel injected 283

57 Cadillac Eldorado convertible

57 Chrysler 300C

57 Chrysler Imperial, both with 392 Hemi V8.

57 Plymouth Fury (Christine)

57 Ford retractible hardtop

57 Thunderbird

57 Lincoln Continental Mark II

57 Studebaker Golden Hawk (supercharged)

57 Porsche

57 Mercedes gullwing coupe

57 Bentley Continental

57 Facel Vega

57 Jaguar Mark VIII, XK 150, XKS

There are some possibilities. I'm sure I have overlooked a lot more.

The point is who knows what the collectors of the future will enjoy?

But if I had to nominate one car that is now overlooked as the collector car of the future it would be the Mercedes SL roadster 1972 - 89.

[Steve_Mack_CT]

No doubt certain cars from all eras will have appeal, but in terms of being restored, here is one observation on cars now hitting the 25 year mark.

The '79-85 Eldorado/Riv/Toronado models arguably seem to have some collector appeal. These cars are usually available in either used car condition or as immaculate originals, which is how I think how most of these newer era cars will be collected. I do not think I have ever seen one that has been fully restored - not just reconditioned. This is because a mint original is worth only a fraction of what it would take to do a true restoration on one of these cars. That is a change in this hobby that is happening right now. If you looked back to 1982 you would see virtually every 1957 car on Rusty's list deemed worthy of a full restoration by most collectors. The only way later cars will be restored is if the market drives it. That has not been the case with most post muscle era cars to date.

This is just a comment on restoring cars from this era. I don't think this has anything to do with appealing to young members, etc. there are many choices out there, and drivers and mint originals are another way to enjoy the hobby.

Put another way, is there anyone out there who is doing a restoration on a car newer than 1975 that is not a sports car? Anyone doing a frame off on one of the last full frame cars or even a K-car convertible?