Battery charging

[John boy]

Hi.

 

I'm new to this game - apologies in advance for some quite basic questions.

 

I have a battery - Die Hard 33334 as below and Sears charger.

 

The battery is probably 10 years old.  It will not have seen much use, but it has sat there for at least 8 years.

 

Removing the battery from the vehicle is a pain (you have to remove a wheel to access the battery compartment!)

 

My questions

 

1) I am hoping I can charge the battery without taking the battery out (the car is 70 years old, so no fancy electronics to damage).  Can I just pop the charging leads on without disconnecting the terminals from the car?

 

2) My battery charger has a 2A and 10A setting.  Presumably the 10A is much faster - why wouldn't I use the 10A setting?  What is the lower 2A setting for?

 

3) If a car is going to be left for a while before it's used again - whats the best way to preserve the battery?

 

4) I know batteries can explode etc.  How is this avoided?

 

Thanks

 

John

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 7, 2023 by John boy (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

Of course you can charge the battery in place. Be sure to disconnect at least one of the battery cables. The bigger question is, can you see into the individual cells to ensure the water level is correct prior to charging? I like to keep the caps loose when charging to vent hydrogen. Be sure that area is ventilated.

 

The other question is, will the battery accept a charge? In my experience, when the battery has been discharged for several years, it may not take a charge. Your charger is the right one to use. Newer "smart chargers" typically are too smart for their own good and end up not working.

 

[John boy]

Joe. 

 

Thanks for the advice. 

 

I wasn't sure there were vents, and I was under the impression that it was a sealed unit.

 

Perhaps it's that rectangular area of raised plastic underneath the carrying strap? 

 

Do they just lever off with a screwdriver?

 

Is the "right level" of water simply topping the battery up to the top?

 

I presume I need to use distilled water to top batteries up?

 

Sorry for the newbie questions....

 

Thanks

 

 

[JACK M]

My opinion.

2 amps for two days is better than 10 amps overnight.

Also, a 10-year-old battery is pretty old.

And yes, if it's been flat dead, it is probably time to replace it.

If getting out a jack and a jack stand and pulling a wheel is to much trouble you might be well disappointed in owning an old car.

Not like cars of today that require little or no maintenance for a hundred thousand miles.

[JACK M]

Another thought, how old is this car? Are you sure that it is 12 volts?

I cannot tell by the picture.

[joe_padavano]

4 minutes ago, John boy said:

Joe. 

 

Thanks for the advice. 

 

I wasn't sure there were vents, and I was under the impression that it was a sealed unit.

 

Perhaps it's that rectangular area of raised plastic underneath the carrying strap? 

 

Do they just lever off with a screwdriver?

 

Is the "right level" of water simply topping the battery up to the top?

 

I presume I need to use distilled water to top batteries up?

 

Sorry for the newbie questions....

 

Thanks

 

 

Yes, that's an older unsealed battery. Those raised caps pry off with a screwdriver. Correct fill level is to the bottom of the split collar inside the case, which is why I asked about the ability to even see into them. Distilled water is fine.

 

[MikeC5]

Those are removable caps.  Just take a small screwdriver and pry up one end (there are 3 holes covered for each rectangular cap).  It's probably too late for this battery but it's only a few cents worth of electricity to try.

[John boy]

Hi Jack.

 

It's 1956.  Yes, 12v definitely.

 

I've had the jack out a few times and don't wish to do it unnecessarily 🙂

 

No disappointment here, just excitement and keen to learn a bit.

 

I've already got a few jobs lined up on it, I'm uncomfortable with all of them as I'm not that experienced.  

 

This is just the first one.

 

Thanks

 

 

[joe_padavano]

4 minutes ago, JACK M said:

Another thought, how old is this car? Are you sure that it is 12 volts?

I cannot tell by the picture.

That red retainer runs between the two caps. Die Hard P/N 33334 is a Group 34 12V battery. You can read the part number in the photo.

[John boy]

Appreciate all the advice.

 

Can't do this in position.

 

Clearly a battery out job and off to get some distilled water (or is that optional?) and I'll get it on charge overnight and see what happens.

 

Thanks

[TerryB]

Distilled water is the best and recommend choice for that style battery.  How long has it been since the car was last run?  If it’s as long as the battery sat then you have things to do before ever trying to start it.  Ask questions if you are unsure of what to do.

[rocketraider]

You have good advice here, especially doing a slow charge at low amps. I prefer distilled or deionized water for both batteries and antifreeze mix, but I do have fairly hard water here. Good water, just high mineral content.

 

A battery hydrometer or cheap Harbor Freight battery load tester will help you determine the battery's state of charge before and after charging it. Good tools to have and learn.

 

Hydrometer: NAPA should have a decent one.

 

Load tester:

 

 

May we ask what the car is, to be so aggravating to access the battery?

 

Really, with a ten year old battery in a car that requires this much aggravation to r&r the battery, might as well get a new battery and be done. I once brought back a 7 year old dead Group 27, just to see if I could, but it took several days of slow charging to break thru the sulfate layer on the plates. Once that happened, it charged to 1.270 specific gravity and worked fine in a friend's 1966 Oldsmobile for a couple more years till he bought it a reproduction Delco battery.

 

All in what you want to do and learn. Good luck.

 

 

[John boy]

Hi.

 

Battery gate continues.

 

It's topped up with distilled water, to the bottom of the vents.  It was about 5mm to 10mm down.

 

I've popped it on charge, I cannot really see if there is charging current or not.

 

Certainly, the needle flicked a small amount when I switched the charger on.

 

But, on the scale, it's less than half an amp (if there is a current at all).

 

Is this normal, for the 2 amp charge?

 

Rocketrader: It's a 1956 Jag.  battery at floor level on a compartment behind the right hand side front wheel.  You can reach into the compartment to undo the nuts with a spanner, but that's about your limit!

 

[John boy]

55 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Distilled water is the best and recommend choice for that style battery.  How long has it been since the car was last run?  If it’s as long as the battery sat then you have things to do before ever trying to start it.  Ask questions if you are unsure of what to do.

Hi Terry, thanks for that.  Last run 8 years ago.  Started OK then!  I've been advised to change the brake fluid, oil, fuel and fuel filter.  About which I will probably have questions.  I tried to get a new low pressure fuel filter today at my local autoparts store, but they didn't have any.  Advised me to go online from summit racing?

 

Anyway, I thought I'd start by getting some air in the tyres and the battery charged.

 

Any further thoughts are welcome, or perhaps wait for my questions!

[nearchoclatetown]

Buy manuals. Either originals for a lot of money or copies from AACA library for a little bit. The copies can be put in a binder to take to the garage and nothing would be ruined from greasy fingers. MOST of your questions will be answered there. 

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, John boy said:

Hi Terry, thanks for that.  Last run 8 years ago.  Started OK then!  I've been advised to change the brake fluid, oil, fuel and fuel filter.  About which I will probably have questions.  I tried to get a new low pressure fuel filter today at my local autoparts store, but they didn't have any.  Advised me to go online from summit racing?

 

Anyway, I thought I'd start by getting some air in the tyres and the battery charged.

 

Any further thoughts are welcome, or perhaps wait for my questions!

The gasoline is mostly likely bad and could harm the engine if you try and start it with the old gasoline in the fuel tank.  At minimum, drain it and replace with fresh gas.  Even better would be to start it on a container of new gas that bypasses the fuel tank and fuel lines in case there is dirt  or rust in the tank or lines. I would suggest turning the engine over slowly by hand with fresh oil in the crankcase first before trying to use the starter. You can remove the spark plugs to make turning it over by hand easier.  Better to find out if the engine is stuck from sitting before applying any forceful power.

Edited August 7, 2023 by TerryB (see edit history)

[Andy J]

My experience with 10 year old batteries that have been dead for a while:get another one.

[R Walling]

 If you leave it on long enough Maybe a week? It might be able to turn the car over, but to start a car that sat 8 years, do yourself a favor, buy a new battery.

[joe_padavano]

1 hour ago, John boy said:

But, on the scale, it's less than half an amp (if there is a current at all).

 

Is this normal, for the 2 amp charge?

My similar charger will usually start out at a low amperage like that and gradually increase as the battery gets charged.

[Bloo]

Battery chargers depend largely on the battery to decide how much current will be drawn, as long as it is below the maximum. A battery that is really low will hardly draw any current at first, because the internal resistance of a dead battery is very high. When the battery starts to get a charge, the internal resistance gets lower, and the battery draws more current. When the battery is getting full, the battery voltage gets closer to the charger voltage, and the current reduces again.

 

Lower >> Higher >> Lower

 

As others suggegsted, If you are charging it on 2 amps, leave the charger on for a really long time.

 

 

[MikeC5]

I believe some chargers will not work if the battery is too dead.  I guess there has to be some minimum voltage.  I have gotten around this by hooking up a good battery in parallel with jumper cables.  It 'fools' the charger and charging commences.  Once the dead battery has some charge, you can remove the extra battery.

[Farmallregular]

20 minutes ago, MikeC5 said:

I believe some chargers will not work if the battery is too dead.  I guess there has to be some minimum voltage.  I have gotten around this by hooking up a good battery in parallel with jumper cables.  It 'fools' the charger and charging commences.  Once the dead battery has some charge, you can remove the extra battery.

The charger he shows is not a "smart" charger (I have a similar one), and will work if the battery will take a charge at all.  It's highly unlikely that a battery that sat in a discharged state for any time will ever take enough charge to be useful, another vote for simply replacing it.

 

Keith

 

[Frank DuVal]

9 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

I like to keep the caps loose when charging to vent hydrogen. Be sure that area is ventilated.

Make that Hydrogen and Oxygen need to vent. That's why it is so explosive, both the fuel and the oxidizer are together. H₂O evaporating you know.

[rodneybeauchamp]

From what I can see from the picture a thorough cleaning of the battery terminals, battery clamps and ends where they connect to the vehicle would not go astray.

 

Keeping these connections immaculately clean with the addition of some dielectric grease will go a long way to improving reliability. Especially as you no doubt have “The Prince of Darkness” (Mr Lucas) to contend with.

 

And the addition of a battery tender would help keep it charged without overcharging too!

 

Just my two bobs worth 

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

[Dandy Dave]

From experience. 10 year old batteries are usually used up. If it has not been charged in years, and you live in a cold climate, most likely the plates are warped from freezing and it will not take a charge. Also, idle battery's sulfate and will not take a charge. In both cases the battery is internally shorted. It is much better to use them and keep them charged than to let them sit idle.  

[WPVT]

Good luck with your work on this car. Your questions are clear and specific, and show that you are proceeding carefully and logically. 

[c49er]

There is a lot more than a battery to be concerned about waking this Jaguar up.😏

[60FlatTop]

That terminal looks like it has suffered multiple Zippo attacks. That was the junkyard guy's tool of choice to tighten cables in the 1960s.

 

There should be a gap where the clamping ears meet on the tightening bolt.  The old saying that starts "I'd like to have a nickel", Well, I have picked up more than nickels for the number of clamps I repaired on unreliable cars.

 

You need to remove the bolt, spread the end, and file some of the material back or replace the cable. Mr. Lucas needs you to give him all the help you can. There is preliminary work to do before bringing out the charger.

 Like the old man in the CarShield commercial asks "Who does that?"

[rocketraider]

3 hours ago, c49er said:

There is a lot more than a battery to be concerned about waking this Jaguar up.😏

 

And the master himself, Bill Hanna, voicing Tom Cat.

Yup, Bill and Joe were with MGM's lunatic animation studio before MGM closed it in 1956 and Hanna-Barbera came to be. 

 

Come to think of it a lot of old cars act like that when you wake them up!

[John boy]

Loving the replies. 

 

From the genuine, the doubters, the knockers, the helpful, the "told you so".  Ahh, the rich tapestry of life.

 

I'm going to run a book on whether:

 

a) the battery ever starts the car

b) I earn myself a Darwin award in doing so

 

Anyway, not had much time today to get back to it, too much work to do 😞

 

However, the battery is on it's slow charge, and now registers 1 amp, which I think is about twice as much as yesterday.

 

Maybe this is progress.

 

For what its worth, I'm with the doubters...I'll probably be buying a new battery in a couple of days.

 

 

 

 

[rocketraider]

On 8/7/2023 at 1:48 PM, JACK M said:

Not like cars of today that require little or no maintenance for a hundred thousand miles.

Which is a good thing because, starting about twenty years ago, modern vehicles have become just as aggravating to access and service some wear components as any British designed and engineered vehicle ever built. Batteries located under the rear seat or requiring removal of a front fender liner to access come to mind, as do park/turn lamps that require disassembling half the front end to access.

[John boy]

15 hours ago, rodneybeauchamp said:

From what I can see from the picture a thorough cleaning of the battery terminals, battery clamps and ends where they connect to the vehicle would not go astray.

 

Keeping these connections immaculately clean with the addition of some dielectric grease will go a long way to improving reliability. Especially as you no doubt have “The Prince of Darkness” (Mr Lucas) to contend with.

 

And the addition of a battery tender would help keep it charged without overcharging too!

 

Just my two bobs worth 

Rodney 😀😀😀😀😀😀

Good shout.  I'm adding some dielectric grease to my shopping list.

[rocketraider]

39 minutes ago, John boy said:

the battery is on it's slow charge, and now registers 1 amp, which I think is about twice as much as yesterday.

 

Maybe this is progress.

 

For what its worth, I'm with the doubters...I'll probably be buying a new battery in a couple of days.

It is, and maybe not.

 

Keep check on the battery case temperature to make sure charging isn't overheating it. You might want to let it rest for a day and then return to a 2A charge. 

 

This process may take a few days. The key will be when the charging rate shows a marked increase. Once that happens it's an indication the sulfation layer on the plates has been broken thru and the charger you have will probably increase its charging rate to a 3 to 6 amp range. This is normal. If it charges at that rate for several hours and then shuts off, it has sensed a full charge.

 

At that point either take a hydrometer reading (for practical purposes 1.250 sg is considered charged enough for a battery to start and run the car) or use the load tester to determine state of charge, and whether the battery has enough capacity to be considered serviceable.

 

If the charger's automatic circuitry stopped the charge below 1.250 sg, check and adjust cell water level, reconnect the charger and allow it to cycle again. When sg no longer increases, that's all the charger and battery can do.

 

Look at it this way. Even if the battery can't be saved, you've learned something and maybe acquired a couple of useful new tools!

[joe_padavano]

23 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Make that Hydrogen and Oxygen need to vent. That's why it is so explosive, both the fuel and the oxidizer are together. H₂O evaporating you know.

Oxygen is also 19% of the atmosphere

[Frank DuVal]

2 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

Oxygen is also 19% of the atmosphere

Shoah is, so we can live, but right at the vent caps you don't have that pesky Nitrogen (78% of air) reducing the available oxidizer!  Just like Oxy-Act torch, you can also burn Acetylene in air, but not as hot as with pure Oxygen. 

 

The old balloon trick of welding school comes to mind. Fill small balloon with some Acetylene, light it. Fill another with some Oxygen and light it. Now put small amount of Acetylene and Oxygen in a balloon and light it. Quite a difference in your ear drum reaction!😧

[c49er]

Maybe we want to talk about wheel and master cylinders for more fun on the Jag..😁

Maybe pour some brake fluid drier in the system..

Edited August 9, 2023 by c49er
Spell check (see edit history)

[dodge28]

A battery 10 years old has long past pensionable age by  5  years. If even it is brand new and never used (charged) the plates become sulfated. If stored dry ( no acid )  and then pour acid in it will take a long time to charge. It is necessary to start at a very low rate. Sometimes the charger will show a low charge rate , for example if you star at 3 amps it may read 1/2 and amps at first and gradually move up to 3. As the battery builds up the charge rate will increase. On YouTube a fellow shows how to rejuvenate an old battery. That is a bunch of BS.  When a plate is sulfated or a piece worn out the pieces will drop to the bottom of the battery case. Just open an old battery and you will see what I mean. Battery technology has come a long way.