Sealing wire wheels for tubeless tires

[Matt Harwood]

So this happened over the weekend:

 

 

This is the third time this particular wheel has had an innertube failure. It has been at the valve stem each time, and I'm guessing it's due to the tube rotating slightly inside the tire and shearing the valve stem. These are heavy-duty truck innertubes, not the light-duty stuff Brand X sells, but it has happened three times now, so I'm looking at alternatives.

 

My thought is that perhaps I could use some kind of sealant on the dropped center of the wheel where the spokes are, then run it without a tube. Any thoughts on this? Good idea? Bad idea?

We're just tired of dealing with it and I don't see any way to keep it from happening again in the future if we stick with the tubes.

 

[keiser31]

Is there a tube flap in there? Are there any sharp edges inside the wheel?

[Matt Harwood]

8 minutes ago, keiser31 said:

Is there a tube flap in there? Are there any sharp edges inside the wheel?

We did use a flap, but it seems that the valve stem is where it keeps getting damaged. The tube seems to rotate slightly inside the tire as we drive and it shears the valve stem until it fails. I don't know why it only happens to this particular wheel or if the others are due for a failure, but since we're going to peel the tire off anyway, I thought maybe I should experiment with perhaps running tubeless.

[keiser31]

1 minute ago, Matt Harwood said:

We did use a flap, but it seems that the valve stem is where it keeps getting damaged. The tube seems to rotate slightly inside the tire as we drive and it shears the valve stem until it fails. I don't know why it only happens to this particular wheel or if the others are due for a failure, but since we're going to peel the tire off anyway, I thought maybe I should experiment with perhaps running tubeless.

Any way to graft a metal valve stem on those tubes?

Edited July 24, 2023 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

I run a Pierce shop car with wire wheels on tubeless tires, and they hold air....without even sealing them from the factory. I would expect if you seal up around all the spokes it will run tubeless just fine. And I would certainly try it..........be sure and use bead sealer around the stem when you install it. 

[Gunsmoke]

The set of NOS tubes I have here (and plan to use on my 1931 Chrysler wheels with lock rings), have this message stamped on them "Do Not Use with Radial Tires". My assumption is that radials flex so much that the valve stem would be under constant strain from all directions and eventually fail. I assume you have radials there? Or are they bias ply? As to why one wheel might fail and others not, too many possibilities. I'd check the hole in the rim against the other 3 and se if it is smaller (too tight), or bigger (too loose).

[Frank DuVal]

17 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

The set of NOS tubes I have here (and plan to use on my 1931 Chrysler wheels with lock rings), have this message stamped on them "Do Not Use with Radial Tires".

I'm confused. Not unusual.🤣  But NOS tubes with a radial tire warning? Wouldn't these just be tubes bought new in the last 40 years or so, not  NOS to the timeframe of your car? I also do not think NOS 1931 tubes would be trustworthy either.

[Gary_Ash]

Blockley and other companies make tubes with metal stems and lock nuts. MWS Wire Wheel in the UK carries them:

http://shop.mwsint.com/productsList.asp?catid=137&pagenum=1&mode=list

[TTR]

Couple of things to consider :

- Has (talcum) powder been applied between inner tube and tire during mounting to prevent inner tube getting “dragged” along if/when the tire might rotate* on the wheel (see below) ? 

- Is the inside of the wheel bead lip designed/made for tubeless (steel belted, “radial”) tire ? Some wheels without appropriate bead design can “allow” tire to slowly move/slip rotationally on the wheel during use.
Smooth, chrome-like finish on the inside of the lip can accelerate/accentuate movement slippage, possibly more so if the steel belted tire is inflated to its recommended pressure.

Vehicles OEM recommendation is usually for the type of tires that the vehicle originally came with, i.e. mid-1950’s American cars (like pictured) came with bias ply tires and usually had considerably lower inflation pressure recommendations than most steel belted tires made today require.

 

*And yes, I believe it's the tire moving/rotating/slipping on the wheel first, not the tube, but that could be easily checked/tested by carefully marking (perhaps with a Sharpie or ?) the relative (to each other) location of both the tire and the wheel right after mounting and then after few hundred(?) miles, to see if the markings spots have changed in relation to each other.

Edited July 25, 2023 by TTR (see edit history)

[Mark Shaw]

Matt,

     That type of failure in older cars with high pressure tires is usually caused by underinflated tires and a grabby clutch. 

As long as you are not popping the clutch from a dead stop, this shouldn't apply to your car.

[Bloo]

In the mid 1990s a friend sealed up all the spoke nipples on his MG with silicone and put tubeless tires on it. He still has it and they still hold air, of course it is probably not the same set of tires after all this time. It has been completely reliable and has never even had a flat. Would I do that? No, probably not. I cringe at the idea of sealing spoke nipples with silicone, but the track record is hard to argue with. Based on my past experience with tube type tires, I can't imagine running that long on inner tubes without tire trouble.

[Gunsmoke]

I said above "The set of NOS tubes I have here (and plan to use on my 1931 Chrysler wheels with lock rings)" meant that I have a set of old tubes (perhaps 30-40 years old) that were given to me 10-15 yrs ago still in their original bags, never used. I considered them new old stock, but perhaps just old stock never used would be better description. They have the centerline valve stem ideal for my lock-rim style wire wheels.

 

 

[Hans1]

Years ago, I purchased tubes marked for use in Radial tires.  Do not know if still available. 

[JFranklin]

Metal valve stems are available.

[joe_padavano]

14 hours ago, Hans1 said:

Years ago, I purchased tubes marked for use in Radial tires.  Do not know if still available. 

I think all tubes today are designed for radial tires. I just bought new tubes for my tractor and they say "radial and bias ply use".

[28anut]

I explored the Motor Wheel Service website that Gary Ash had posted as I had never heard of them.  On the website it states, "Tubed - the application of sealant does not make a tubed wheel tubeless".  Maybe this is just a general disclaimer, I don't know.  Upon further searching, this disclaimer seems to be added to larger, older style diameter wheels  (example, 21" Bentley) vs. say 15".  Maybe it has to do with the rim edge style also, I don't know.

[PWN]

I have the same problem with my Chandler. Houk wheels, new Firestone tires, metal valves stems, lots of talc, liner, keep inflated. I have lost two expensive tubes to failure at the valve....and I haven't even driven the car yet!

Edited July 26, 2023 by PWN (see edit history)

[drhach]

A blob of silicone around each spoke nipple should seal it up. Motorcycle guys do this when they want to convert to tubeless on their spoke wheels. 

[Marty Roth]

I had bought a set of Wheel Vintique - NOW OWNED BY COKER - aftermarket wire spoke wheels for my 1954 Cadillac. I did this because the radial tubes inside my new radial tires went flat within a few miles due to abrasion by the vulcanized paper tags inside the tire against the tubes.

They were ostensibly made for tubeless tires with a layer of a silicone type substance completely around the inside of the rim, encapsulating the spokes. They did allow tubeless tires to maintain air pressure - well, mostly, but I did check pressure after storage before each drive.

This same type material is also available online, generally in a two inch (2") width and I don't recall the length, but enough to go around the rim's drop center.

Edited July 27, 2023 by Marty Roth (see edit history)