1940 Buick 46S struggling to go faster than 60 MPR

[edinmass]

The babbitt will pound out and overheat…………BS? Let’s have him drive it at 70 mph for three hours down the road and see the results. What the hell do I know, just 45 years of experience with pre war engines. By the way, did you ever see the 1941 engineering report from Buick on the engines run at the proving grounds? And how long it specifically took the Buicks to fail? I don’t have a copy handy, but all were under three hours. Ans for Pierce Arrow they averaged 117 mph for 24 hours in 1932 with a stock engine. Simply put, a cheap production pre war engine will scatter under high rpm’s for sustained time periods. 

[Matt Harwood]

I'm not convinced that more speed will be any less stressful. My Limited will cruise at 65 MPH without much effort, and it's a BIG car. I still feel like I'm going to get run off the road by traffic racing past me on the highway at 75-80 MPH. Even big trucks roar past. It's stressful as hell, even in a car that's the size of a Suburban. There are very, very few pre-war cars that can run with modern traffic and still feel comfortable for the driver. Maybe even none.

 

It isn't just about speed, it's about feeling vulnerable in an ancient car in today's traffic. You can't make an old car drive fast enough to overcome that feeling. 

 

Drive it within its limits on side roads and you'll be much happier and so will the car. Try to force it onto the highway will be stressful no matter how you modify the car to go faster.

 

Why do people buy an old car and then expect to use it like a modern car? Why buy it at all if getting from point A to point B as quickly as possible is the only goal? I don't buy a bicycle and wonder how I can modify it so I can tow my boat with it.

[Buick35]

This puts new meaning to the song "I can't drive 55" .(sounds like my 35 40 series).

[Buick35]

On 2/7/2023 at 5:13 PM, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

 

 Have you owned a straight eight Buick?

 

  Ben

A man named Glenn took over for Lloyd who did the over drives.I talked to him two years ago and he was still doing them.He's in Circleville, Ohio.614 571-4908.I think he still dose them.I was thinking of having mine done but he quoted me around $3000 which I didn't think was too bad. Greg.

[charlespetty]

55-60 sustained speed with an occasional burst up to 65 is about the best you should expect.  Even my second old car, a 1941 Pontiac straight 8 with 30,000 original miles and a little less horsepower than the 1940 Buick Special could easily sustain 55mph, 65mph for any distance was a little too much to ask.  

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

The babbitt will pound out and overheat…………BS? Let’s have him drive it at 70 mph for three hours down the road and see the results. What the hell do I know, just 45 years of experience with pre war engines. By the way, did you ever see the 1941 engineering report from Buick on the engines run at the proving grounds? And how long it specifically took the Buicks to fail? I don’t have a copy handy, but all were under three hours. Ans for Pierce Arrow they averaged 117 mph for 24 hours in 1932 with a stock engine. Simply put, a cheap production pre war engine will scatter under high rpm’s for sustained time periods. 

Ed , I would be very interested in reading that report.   

  Did the 320ci [big] engines have babbitt rods? I believe they did.  Would they pound out as well, or just the 248?

 

  Ben

[37_Roadmaster_C]

@Ben Bruce aka First Born, The 320 had babbitt rod bearings  from 1936 until sometime in the 40's I think.  I have no idea on the rest of your question, but the 320 is a long stroke engine and they are not a high rpm engine. I would expect, because of gearing, the engine would be safe up to around 70 MPH.  I do not have my 37 shop manual handy, but there is a graph showing RPM VS MPH for all models and as I recall all of the big cars were good to about 70 MPH with the RPM still in the safe power band area.  Now an old engine with worn bearings may very well beat its self to death at that RPM under load for long periods.  I also would like to read Eds report!!

[edinmass]

I’m going to try and find the report. It specifically was a Buick devision engineering analysis, I found it a few months ago after buying the 1934 56C and was wondering what the engine could take. I think the the report is actually what cause buick to go over to inserts, as all the failures were big end rod issues. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

8 minutes ago, edinmass said:

I’m going to try and find the report. It specifically was a Buick devision engineering analysis, I found it a few months ago after buying the 1934 56C and was wondering what the engine could take. I think the the report is actually what cause buick to go over to inserts, as all the failures were big end rod issues. 

Thank you.  Rod inserts came about in 1949

  Ben

[edinmass]

8 hours ago, charlespetty said:

55-60 sustained speed with an occasional burst up to 65 is about the best you should expect.  Even my second old car, a 1941 Pontiac straight 8 with 30,000 original miles and a little less horsepower than the 1940 Buick Special could easily sustain 55mph, 65mph for any distance was a little too much to ask.  

I agree……except that for the little experience in driving our 34 I would say 50mph as an absolute top limit….

 

 

[EmTee]

12 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

With the compression readings shown earlier, the engine may well be worn so much...

Was a compression test done? I went back and looked, but didn't see any mention of it.  I still think the clutch inspection cover needs to be dropped in order to find, clean and paint the timing mark.  That would also be the time to check that the flywheel orientation is correct with respect to the crankshaft (remark the flywheel if necessary).  Next, check dwell and finally the timing.  It sounds like there are issues with the throttle linkage that are being addressed now.  That problem alone may make a significant difference once sorted...

[clipperfan]

Hi

Matt makes great points about how crazy some LA freeway drivers can be - scary!  

 

Back to my '40--- I'll redo the compression- it ran from 75 to 85 psi when I did it around Thanksgiving.

I advanced the timing a little - I'll report the results later today.

 

Clipperfan

[DonMicheletti]

You cant compare aa 34 Buick to a 40.  They are different animals

[clipperfan]

Hi all!

Some encouraging news...I advanced the timing a little and the car started right up and ran stronger/better around town even pulled from a stop in 2nd by accident!  I took it to the freeway where I could get on the next exit on ramp not actually getting onto the freeway itself and hit 70 before I had to slow down.  Temp gauge stayed just shy of 160 and oil pressure good.  I'll let it cool down and will check the fluids and carb.

Good stuff - I know I'm on the right track with your help.

Best

Clipperfan

Jim

[drhach]

Find your timing mark. Guessing at timing settings has its own set of risks. Too much advance or retard is not good for an engine. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

56 minutes ago, clipperfan said:

Hi all!

Some encouraging news...I advanced the timing a little and the car started right up and ran stronger/better around town even pulled from a stop in 2nd by accident!  I took it to the freeway where I could get on the next exit on ramp not actually getting onto the freeway itself and hit 70 before I had to slow down.  Temp gauge stayed just shy of 160 and oil pressure good.  I'll let it cool down and will check the fluids and carb.

Good stuff - I know I'm on the right track with your help.

Best

Clipperfan

Jim

GREAT!

    Have you a vacuum gauge?  Hook it up to manifold vacuum, wiper connection is a good place.  With car warmed and idling, adjust timing for MAX timing. That will be close.  Go for a drive and put a load on and see if she "pings". If so, back the timing off just a smidgen.

 

  Ben

[Century Eight]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:59 PM, edinmass said:

Pushing that engine that hard when new, was a very bad idea. An old tired engine will especially not like it. You bought a nice Buick, to go that fast, you should have bought a different car. The brakes, suspension, steering, none of it was designed to go 70 or even 60 for sustained distances. Think of the car as a 50 mph car……..it that doesn’t suit your needs, sell it and buy something bigger or newer. Going in the fast lane safely in the pre war era can be expensive. Pre 1937 it’s very expensive. 

Here is an idea that will ruffle a lot of feathers … Buy a trailer!

 

Back when my fifty was younger, with under 20k miles on it, I drove that thing (50 Super, 263 insert bearing engine), i drove that thing all over the place on round trip 800 mile club tours to Nationals in Chicago, Columbus, Flint, and moved to Delaware all from Cleveland and it didn’t complain.  However by the time it got to be 55 years old, and at the same time i was the same age (I am a ‘49’er myself),  for a family wedding long distance, I sprung for the convenience of an open trailer.  It saves the car, and I don’t hear all those “strange noises” coming from the back seat of my loaded GMC Sierra because the a/c is running and you cant hear any road or other “noises’.

 

I still drive local tours around 100 miles and have found so many other uses for the trailer, just the same as when you buy a pick-up and suddenly gain a whole host of new friends.  It will also be cheaper and quicker than all the work you are going to do to the car,  You could find an open or closed trailer in a week and have the use of the car locally or long distance just the same. 

 

Yeah, I  know all the cliche’s, Buicks were meant to be driven, if you see this car on a trailer then it is stolen, etc. but at 74, I now have the best of both worlds.  It’s all about fun, and getting your doors blown off on the interstate is no fun.  It was easier back in the seventies when Nixon lowered the speed limit to 55, but them days are over.  It took me about thirty years to figure that one out.  Now my car will break less and I will enjoy it more and the family will even go along when it is 100 degrees.

 

Fortunately, in Delaware we have a lot of secondary roads, and I have a lot of places to hide the trailer which could be a problem with an HOA.

 

Just sayin, and they’re still meant to be driven when you get there.

[Nailbitten]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:04 PM, FLYER15015 said:

To run a '40 Buick Special 60 - 70 MPH you only need 3 things.

350 crate motor, 5 speed gearbox, Ford 9" rear end.

Oh, and adapters for the stock rear rims.

I guess that's 4.

 

Mike in Colorado

Beat me too it,but i was going to say a blown 572 BBC w/ 6 speed stick and 9" Ford but close enough.

 

He needs to positively check to see if the throttle plates or wide open.I bet they are not.

[DonMicheletti]

Great. You are making progress...It can do it

[dodge28]

I owned a "41 BUICK Special 60. Had a straight 8 Fire ball engine. Had electric wiper motor , the wiper blade end has a box with a tiny chain. Had to push the gas pedal to the ground to start engine. They were famous for for cracked exhaust manifold. That car was heavy and with single brake cylinder pipe I would be scared to hell to drive it a more than 55 MPH. The oil in the torque tube is from the transmission. There is a grove in the output shaft . Cut a piece of cork and press in . Chamfer the edges, grease the new cork and install. This is the advice given to me by a Buick guy from the Bugle . I did it and it worked. While you are at it check the clutch and flywheel for burns. Not too many owners were willing to have the flywheel machined when replacing disc. To remove the flywheel the oil pan had to be dropped a little to clear the flywheel. The rear motor mount was also a weak point.  The wheel lugs were also "L" and "R" threads. Ride was super.

[clipperfan]

Hi Everyone 

Just wanted to give you an update and ask a couple of questions....

 

1st of all, I've been driving the car fairly regularly both around town and on the freeway - typically at 55-65 MPH and the car seems to be pretty comfortable at those speeds - once in in a while I get to 70MPH even 73 MPH on a flat but I don't want to push it.

 

I dropped the flywheel pan like Ben the Last Born (Thanks Ben) suggested and found the marks and highlighted them with white paint and after putting everything back together I tried my timing light - still can't see them so with the car running pretty well I figure the flywheel was installed wrong - but my timing light is pretty dull (was a 12V one). I'll probably try the vacuum method he recommended since i won't be dropping the clutch while it behaves itself!

 

Also, I'm trying to sign up for the May 21,2023 All GM car show in Woodland Hills, CA as indicated in the latest copy of the Buick Bugle (April) so if any of you guys are in the area come say hi!  I posted a pic of my car to help you find us!

 

Finally my question ... several of responants indicated not to drive very fast too long but didn't really say how long is too long.  I also signed up for the annual Big Bear Lake car show held August 11-13 2023.  Still planning to drive along the freeway (route 101 East - 134 East - 210 East to 38 North up the "hill" - I'm figuring this will take 2 and half to 3 hours before heading up to 7200 feet at @ 30-50 MPH or so. 

 

I'll be stopping for gas ataround 110 miles (fuel gage still doesn't work) but the total trip will be about 160 miles from my house.  So ...is 3 hours too long a drive @ 60-65?  Renting a trailer is an option but the car is meant to be driven!!!  (I'll be bringing extra gas, oil, antifreeze and tools)

 

t

he other question had to do with the 7200 feet elevation - I figure while it'll probably run a little rougher I don't think I want to deal with jets for a week of high elevation - but what do you guys think?

 

Anyway, I appreciate your help and hope your spring is going well!

 

Jim Gilmore

Clipperfan

BCA #52571

AACA #918917

1940 Buick 46S

[DonMicheletti]

You should have no issues on the trip. A long run shouldnt bother it. The temperature gage should be a good indication of whether the engine is working to hard or not.

I definitely would not fool with the jets, but for a week at altitude, I might re-adjust the idle screws for the altitude.

[Rusty_OToole]

On 2/9/2023 at 9:51 PM, edinmass said:

The babbitt will pound out and overheat…………BS? Let’s have him drive it at 70 mph for three hours down the road and see the results. What the hell do I know, just 45 years of experience with pre war engines. By the way, did you ever see the 1941 engineering report from Buick on the engines run at the proving grounds? And how long it specifically took the Buicks to fail? I don’t have a copy handy, but all were under three hours. Ans for Pierce Arrow they averaged 117 mph for 24 hours in 1932 with a stock engine. Simply put, a cheap production pre war engine will scatter under high rpm’s for sustained time periods. 

Ed you remind me of a press release by Packard announcing their new V8 engine in 1955. They stated at that time, that their old straight eight engine had a life of 18,000miles at high speed compared to over 100,000 for the new V8.

To put this in perspective, Packard had the best high speed test track in the industry and they could run at over 100 MPH indefinitely. On the other hand these were postwar cars with insert bearings and other improvements, including lower speed rear gears.

The point is, that the older long stroke engines were not made for high speed or high RPM use. The Buick was a more expensive, powerful car compared to say a Plymouth or Chevrolet but even so, I would not recommend driving over 60 for long periods in view of its age, unless you like rebuilding the engine from time to time.

[edinmass]

In my humble opinion, anything over 50mph for more than 15 minutes is pushing that small engine too hard…….use surface roads…….not highways. It’s a pre war car……with a small engine. Buick made great stuff………but spinning an original engine in unknown condition is ASKING for problems……big and small.

[DonMicheletti]

This discussion reminds me of a report I read a few days ago about a early 1970's, restored,  Oldmaobile where the owner was reluctant to drive it over 70 mph. Really?

 

Just listen, the car will tell you whether it likes it or not.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Dang!   Wish I had KNOWN anything over 50 was too fast!  Probably saved a lot in speeding fines as a 16-17 year old.  But then , I would have never had the fun of beating Coleys 1952 Chevy nightly after work.😁.  Lucky it was a BUICK, and not a packard, I guess.

 

  Ben

[Rusty_OToole]

3 hours ago, Ben Bruce aka First Born said:

Dang!   Wish I had KNOWN anything over 50 was too fast!  Probably saved a lot in speeding fines as a 16-17 year old.  But then , I would have never had the fun of beating Coleys 1952 Chevy nightly after work.😁.  Lucky it was a BUICK, and not a packard, I guess.

 

  Ben

Ben I don't doubt your Buick could do 90 all day when it was new just like Granny could dance all night when she was 18 but that was a long time ago.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

25 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Ben I don't doubt your Buick could do 90 all day when it was new just like Granny could dance all night when she was 18 but that was a long time ago.

 

  I give up!!

 

  Ben

[Rusty_OToole]

When I was born in 1951 our family car was a straight eight, 1947 Hudson Commodore Eight. My father used to drive to work from Rouge Hill to the new Ford plant in Oakville and home again by the Queen Elizabeth Way at 70 MPH. He told me he never had a car that handled as well or held the road at high speed until he bought a Mercedes in 1972.

That car was shot, the motor worn out, by 1952 when he traded it in on a new Chevrolet.

So, do I believe a typical straight eight car from the forties was capable of more than 50 or 60 MPH? Certainly. I was there. Do I believe such speeds are a good formula for long engine life? Not a chance.

If you know where there is a used car lot full of such cars for a few hundred bucks, go ahead and flog 'em. But if you have one and want it to last, take it easy.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Century Eight]

What I want to know is when are you going to buy a Century?  Your Special is a beautiful and you can probably force it to do what you want it to do, but unless it is near and dear to you, the effort your are going to do to put in to it would get more bang for the buck with the next size engine, the 320.  You could at least put a post fifty, 263 engine in it after you go through it.  

 

I cant keep still any longer, but after you get your Century, (ha ha), give Doug Seybold a call and ask him what he has done to his big engines.  He knows how to tweak them and get a lot more out of them.  I know he has gotten 275K miles out of his, and has driven one of them that far, and all over the country.  Remember its all about fun, and worrying about when it’s going to crap out next, takes the joy out of it.

 

You should see if someone will let you drive their ‘40 Century and compare it with yours.  Then you’ll have a better idea.  And don't forget about the brakes!

Edited April 3, 2023 by Century Eight (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

1 hour ago, Century Eight said:

I cant keep still any longer, but after you get your Century, (ha ha), give Doug Seybold a call and ask him what he has done to his big engines.  He knows how to tweak them and get a lot more out of them.  I know he has gotten 275K miles out of his, and has driven one of them that far, and all over the country.  Remember its all about fun, and worrying about when it’s going to crap out next, takes the joy out of it.

Interesting question, could you build a small straight eight Buick for high speed use? What would be the result if you rebuilt one with light weight pistons, modern low tension rings, insert bearings and a careful balance job? What about lighter pushrods and stiffer valve springs? I am thinking now of how to make one live at higher RPM and like it, not so much about multiple carbs, hot cams etc.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

3 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Interesting question, could you build a small straight eight Buick for high speed use? What would be the result if you rebuilt one with light weight pistons, modern low tension rings, insert bearings and a careful balance job? What about lighter pushrods and stiffer valve springs? I am thinking now of how to make one live at higher RPM and like it, not so much about multiple carbs, hot cams etc.

ok , I know I said I give up.  Guess I can't.

 

Rusty, drop down to the BUICK Modified forums and see. I have done so. One does not build for higher RPM. At least I did not.  Build for power and use higher speed gears. 

 

  Ben

[clipperfan]

Hi Everyone 

 

You all have given me a lot to think about

 

Back roads are really not an option - lots of traffic and will turn a 3 hour drive into 5 or 6 hours - I know - had to do it once when there was a big accident on the 134 a few years ago and I don't want to wear the clutch out.

I think I need to take it on a longer drive say along the 101 to the 405 and back (about 60 minutes total) with my son in the car (he hears better) and see if it makes any objectional noises.  I'll shoot for 60-65 MPH - no higher.

Temp gauge works and never goes past 160F.  and good oil pressure - to 45+ or so almost all the time except at idle.

 

I'm going to search the forums - both AACA and BCA for upgrades - definitely want to check out the dual carb set up - plus I need to get the timing squared away once and for all.

 

The reason I bought the car is that my Mom and Dad had one in the early 50's when they were courting - found an old photo.

 

Thanks again - i'm always impressed by all your responses!

 

Jim Gilmore

Clipperfan

BCA #52571

AACA #918917

1940 Buick 46S

[edinmass]

In the end, you're driving a small car at the top end of its operating envelope. If it were a recently rebuilt engine, I would say not a good idea, but it would probably hold together. If it's an original or semi tired engine.........it will probably scatter. You are asking it to do something that it wasn't designed to do new. Brakes, steering, and suspension on a 40 series Buick are marginal at 50mph. Can you get away with it? Maybe.......but be prepared to build a new engine if you try it. You should have bought a big series Buick if you want to make it perform on modern highways. 

[Walt G]

On 4/3/2023 at 8:19 AM, Century Eight said:

give Doug Seybold a call and ask him what he has done to his big engines.  He knows how to tweak them and get a lot more out of them.  

Finally someone mentions "Mr. 1940- 41 Buick" . Doug knows more about these then anyone - yes, anyone. When I bought my 1940 Roadmaster model 71C I asked Tom Goade who to go to and believe that has worked on these cars - this was probably over a decade + ago. Tom drove his 1940 fastback 4 door sedan on every tour possible with no problems what so ever. I live on the east coast and bought my car sight unseen in California. On its way east I arranged to have the car deposited at Doug Seybold's shop. I told him I wanted the car "right" and a reliable trouble free driver. The car at the time had less then 50,000 miles from new. Got a cosmetic restoration in the mid 1960s - some former owners were the San Francisco chapter of the Hell's Angels motorcycle lads. I was in England all the time this was taking place. I saw Doug at Hershey and we chatted as he was finishing up my car ( new brakes, tires, correct rims, valve job, etc etc.) His comment to me was " If I had seen that car of yours first you would not own it now" I thought that was just so nice! Doug is "the man that am" in my estimation. He confirmed that the mileage on the car was most likely completely correct and as of now it has about 54,000 miles on it. I absolutely love it and that 320 cu in Buick OHV engine is a grand thing indeed.

Walt

Edited April 7, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[rocketraider]

On 4/2/2023 at 8:08 PM, DonMicheletti said:

This discussion reminds me of a report I read a few days ago about a early 1970's, restored,  Oldmaobile where the owner was reluctant to drive it over 70 mph. Really?

Unless that Oldsmobile is packing 3.91 or deeper gears, limiting it to 70mph is strangling it. But it will get to 70 in a hurry! Me 60s and 70s Oldsmobiles with big V8s and gearing ranging from 2.93 to 3.42 travel well at 70-80 mph, but they're from a time when high-speed roads were the norm.

 

Conversely and back to topic, pre-1949 Oldsmobile straight eights wouldn't like high speed operation any better than the OP's Buick, and the Buick has advantage of OHV vs the Oldsmobile's flathead. These cars were, simply put, never designed for modern highway speeds.

[Bloo]

4.44 is typical of prewar Buick Specials.

[Rusty_OToole]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:59 PM, clipperfan said:

Thanks

I will definitely check out the Buick Bugle for gear sources and disassembly and assembly info!

Rusty's suggestions will also be pursued - I have done some of it (points plugs and compression check ((ranged from 75 to 85)) but haven't adjusted valves yet.

 

All cylinders with similar compression is good, but pressure seems on the low side. I looked up the compression ratio of a 1940 Buick and it is 6:1. So maybe 75 - 85 is normal for a motor in good condition? Any Buick experts care to comment?

[Rusty_OToole]

On 2/6/2023 at 6:59 PM, clipperfan said:

Thanks

I will definitely check out the Buick Bugle for gear sources and disassembly and assembly info!

Rusty's suggestions will also be pursued - I have done some of it (points plugs and compression check ((ranged from 75 to 85)) but haven't adjusted valves yet.

 

All cylinders with similar compression is good, but pressure seems on the low side. I looked up the compression ratio of a 1940 Buick and it is 6:1. So maybe 75 - 85 is normal for a motor in good condition? Any Buick experts care to comment?

[edinmass]

That compression is excellent. No worries there at all………