1926 Cadillac window regulators--locked?

[Matt Harwood]

I just acquired a 1926 Cadillac 314 sedan and it's a lovely car except the windows don't move. The regulators are not frozen or rusted or gummed up, the handles aren't bound (the pot metal hasn't swelled up), they just feel like they're locked in place. The handles are free and will move, but they quickly hit a hard stop in either direction just like a door handle feels when it's locked. I don't believe the regulators are stuck or gummed up because the hard stop is too precise. They just feel locked. Even pulling up on the glass does nothing to assist--the handles just hit a hard stop. It's the same in all four doors. Quarter window and windshield cranks work properly.

 

It's the one thing on the car that doesn't work and obviously it's something I'd like to fix and it's odd that it's all four doors. Previous owner of 9 years says they never worked and the owner before him also had no luck getting them to move. I'm not terribly keen on removing door panels, which are original and nailed in place, so I was wondering if anyone had any real knowledge of these before I start taking things apart. My '29 had no problems in this area and the regulators were smooth and easy.

 

Any thoughts?

 

[rocketraider]

WAG but is it possible this Cadillac may have armored or other bulletproof glass which, being thicker, prevents movement in the original tracks?

[alsfarms]

I wonder if they are cable lift like what is on my 1925 Locomobile?  That looks like a nice Cadillac.  If interested, I have a lead on 21" disc wheels and hubs from a 1927 Cadillac.

Al

[Matt Harwood]

18 hours ago, rocketraider said:

WAG but is it possible this Cadillac may have armored or other bulletproof glass which, being thicker, prevents movement in the original tracks?

Good thought, but definitely not bulletproof. Some windows are closed, one is open about an inch, and the driver's is all the way down but for about 1/2". They obviously worked at some point, but the feeling is of a solid lock in the mechanism.

 

17 hours ago, alsfarms said:

I wonder if they are cable lift like what is on my 1925 Locomobile?  That looks like a nice Cadillac.  If interested, I have a lead on 21" disc wheels and hubs from a 1927 Cadillac.

Al

I have no idea what the mechanism looks like inside, but my '29 wasn't cable operated so I'm betting these aren't either. Looks like I'm going to have to take off a door panel and have a look.

 

Thanks for the thoughts, guys.

[PFitz]

Can you budge the open windows by grabbing the top edge with your hands and lifting as someone turns the window crank ?

 

If the window glass were replaced with modern safety laminate, and/or, the channels replaced, some of the replacement felt-lined window channels are too tight for modern safety laminate, unless a forming tool is run through them first to spread the channel a bit. I have to do this with every 20's car that I replace the plate glass side windows and felt lined channels in. I made a piece of hard wood with rounded edges that is just the right width to slide though the channels and spread them to a good sliding fit for modern safety laminate.   

 

Paul 

Edited December 6, 2022 by PFitz (see edit history)

[TexRiv_63]

Can't help with the windows but that looks like a nice car.

[1912Staver]

I seem to remember that one of the internal pinions is GM's less than wonderfull zinc based alloy . If I am remembering correctly it has probably swollen and has bound the winder up tight.

[31nash880]

Nice car but most were just old cars at one point. Have placed wood posts in many an old car for people were the regulator gave out and no money to fix.

[rocketraider]

6 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I seem to remember that one of the internal pinions is GM's less than wonderfull zinc based alloy . If I am remembering correctly it has probably swollen and has bound the winder up tight.

Cheap, easy to mould and plate, and no longevity.

 

 

Tinkly minky indeed. Even nonsense master Lear knew zinc wasn't the most durable material in the world.

[John Bloom]

On 12/5/2022 at 4:19 PM, Matt Harwood said:

I just acquired a 1926 Cadillac 314 sedan and it's a lovely car except the windows don't move. The regulators are not frozen or rusted or gummed up, the handles aren't bound (the pot metal hasn't swelled up), they just feel like they're locked in place. The handles are free and will move, but they quickly hit a hard stop in either direction just like a door handle feels when it's locked. I don't believe the regulators are stuck or gummed up because the hard stop is too precise. They just feel locked. Even pulling up on the glass does nothing to assist--the handles just hit a hard stop. It's the same in all four doors. Quarter window and windshield cranks work properly.

 

It's the one thing on the car that doesn't work and obviously it's something I'd like to fix and it's odd that it's all four doors. Previous owner of 9 years says they never worked and the owner before him also had no luck getting them to move. I'm not terribly keen on removing door panels, which are original and nailed in place, so I was wondering if anyone had any real knowledge of these before I start taking things apart. My '29 had no problems in this area and the regulators were smooth and easy.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Matt, I was thinking about this with my 1st cup of coffee this morning. I have zero experience with window regulators from cars of this era, but I have fooled around with some some on cars from the 50s and 60s. If you told me one window was locked, and two had a heavy drag on them, and one was squeaky, I might be convinced that a combination of moisture and 90 years caused deterioration of those regulators to various degrees, and lubrication and maintenance might be the solution. When you say all of them have a similar locked feeling, it just doesn’t make sense to me that they would all be at that extreme situation from time and age. It seems more likely that something has been done to them. Are the door panels newer replacements? Did somebody do a restoration and put on new panels in the 60s and are there bolts for an armrest or some other portion of the door panel that has caused a bolt or part and inappropriately sized to be protruding into the mechanism of each of those regulators in a way that won’t allow it to turn? I guess what I’m saying is it seems odd they would all be at that extreme position by chance. I kind of think you need to take the panels off. Maybe find the panel that’s in the worst shape and start there first and get a feel for  how  they attached it and how you will put it back on with as little cosmetic disruption as possible. Good luck and let us know what you find, I have a strange interest in these type of mechanical mysteries.

 

I hope you find out that the previous owner was a pirate and he hid his gold doubloons  in the door panels of this Cadillac.

Edited December 10, 2022 by John Bloom (see edit history)

[trimacar]

I’m sure you know this, but if one is very careful,you should be able to gently pry the door panels off, letting the brads holding the panel on pull through the door board.  Replacing the panel should be easy with similar brads, assuming neither fabric nor panel board not rotten nor brittle…good luck

[edinmass]

My ten cents……..

 

Looks like a nice car. Obviously restored to a certain level. Windows all around don’t move at all……..that was obviously done intentionally. I just don’t buy they all locked up over time. Add in GM 20’s pot metal. Best guess…….unavailable parts when the restoration was done, and they didn’t have the ability to deal with it. 
 

Option 1- Leave it alone.

Option 2- Open it up, see the issues, and jump off the highest rooftop when you find the problem.

 

I see the biggest obstacle as manufacturing needed parts……time down and apart. It’s not the labor that is going to be the issue……..if that car has reverse winders and smaller rear window winders you could easily be making lots more stuff than you think. The real best answer is get photos of an identical car under restoration. You need to know ahead of time what is inside those doors. If each window is 8 hours work and 400 in parts…….that’s fifty hours and 2k in out of pocket. Plus the car could be apart for months. Is it better to sell as is for less money and let the new owner decide? Probably. As long as the two front door windows go down, I would probably stop there. Give me a good old carburetor or ignition problems……I hade dealing with door panels.

[Roger Zimmermann]

There is a huge difference between 1926 and 1932. However, in the 1932-33 Cadillac shop manual, I see a small figure called "trigger lock". As the next figure concern also the side windows, it may have something to do with the windows. I'm attaching that page here; it may be a lead for you, searching if there is a lock somewhere at each door...

I also have the 1930-31 shop manual. There is nothing similar in that manual.

[mikewest]

Matt, I dont know what the problem is but im almost sure the mechanism is chain driven.  Ive had several mid 20s  Cadillac  doors apart  and  all had chains and sprockets.

[chistech]

I would doubt all door regulators are bad. The original channels are flocked rubber but I’ve seen past restorations where flocked metal channels were incorrectly used, has rusted, swelled, and bound the windows in the channels. The original flocked rubber is held in the door below the window openings with a metal channel that it slides in. The tops of the channels were often simply tacked at the very top corners into the wood. The garnish moldings are what holds the rubber channels in place around the opening.  If all four door windows are totally up and not willing to move at all it sounds like someone blocked them up. You can pull off the lower inside garnish moldings and look down the glass with a flashlight. The regulator pin should be visible where it rides in the bottom of the sash. Even with the windows blocked up in position, the regulator would move some , possibly a half revolution of the crank handle. Are the crank handles moving at all. The windows are fairly easy on these cars to work on and many regulators cross from make to make.

[chistech]

Here’s some pictures of a 31 chevy 5 passenger coupe. Your doors will most likely be very similar. You can see a rubber flocked channel on the sides, in a metal channel below the opening and then the rubber channel just lays alongside the window openings. You can see the regulator, the window lower sash, and the regulator pin where it engages the sash slot. You can also see the wood window stop block with the rubber bumper on it at the bottom of the door.  This should give you a basic idea of how your doors are assembled. I have a 31 caddy coming after the first of the year to work on that I could reference if you need. Because the 5 passenger coupe has the widest window of any door in the 31 model range, it also has a metal sash guide to keep the window level during raising or lowering seen in the middle of the door. 

[Matt Harwood]

I guess I should follow up and thank everyone for their advice. I did pull the garnish moldings and had a look in there and it's cable-operated. The crank turns a large pulley which winds and unwinds some cable and the window slides up and down.

 

I cleaned and lubricated the mechanism as much as I could through the small gap at the top and it didn't do much good. The window channels are not too tight, and I believe the cables and pulleys are free. All the stiffness has to be in the crank mechanism itself. I was able to get the front windows to go up and down, but it requires considerable effort and I'm afraid of breaking the crank handles. I think the problem is somewhere in the mechanism. The handles turn freely in their bezels, so it isn't the pot metal swollen and stuck. The pulley seems to move freely as well, so I don't think it's internal. I think it's the socket where the crank attaches and which attaches to the pulley, if that makes sense.

 

Anyway, we've got the front windows going up and down with some effort, but the rear windows are still locked up solid. I'm not going to mess with them, there's just too much that can go wrong. Someone who isn't me will have to remove the door panels and disassemble the whole mechanism and free it up. I can't risk these original door panels that are simply nailed to the door frame. 

Thanks again for the advice and feedback. I wish I could claim success here. Very frustrating, but at least nothing got broken.

[John Bloom]

33 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I guess I should follow up and thank everyone for their advice. I did pull the garnish moldings and had a look in there and it's cable-operated. The crank turns a large pulley which winds and unwinds some cable and the window slides up and down.

 

I cleaned and lubricated the mechanism as much as I could through the small gap at the top and it didn't do much good. The window channels are not too tight, and I believe the cables and pulleys are free. All the stiffness has to be in the crank mechanism itself. I was able to get the front windows to go up and down, but it requires considerable effort and I'm afraid of breaking the crank handles. I think the problem is somewhere in the mechanism. The handles turn freely in their bezels, so it isn't the pot metal swollen and stuck. The pulley seems to move freely as well, so I don't think it's internal. I think it's the socket where the crank attaches and which attaches to the pulley, if that makes sense.

 

Anyway, we've got the front windows going up and down with some effort, but the rear windows are still locked up solid. I'm not going to mess with them, there's just too much that can go wrong. Someone who isn't me will have to remove the door panels and disassemble the whole mechanism and free it up. I can't risk these original door panels that are simply nailed to the door frame. 

Thanks again for the advice and feedback. I wish I could claim success here. Very frustrating, but at least nothing got broken.

Matt, I think this could be called a success.  You got the front windows to go up and down.  You got a peak inside and can pass along some advice to the buyer.  You didn't break a handle, or hear anything break inside the door.  You didn't damage the panels.  

 

I'm sure it comes from your experience and knowing what could happen if you push it............., but this seems like a good time to stop and let the next owner have some fun (and assume the risk).  

[EmTee]

I wonder whether it would be possible to fashion a wand from brake tubing to reach the spot in the mechanism that is frozen.  If inserted from the base of the window, maybe use a straw on WD-40, PB-Blaster, etc. and spray into the tube to get to the area that needs lubrication?  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Keep it up daily and give the crank a try little by little.  Might be worth a try.

[Matt Harwood]

22 minutes ago, EmTee said:

I wonder whether it would be possible to fashion a wand from brake tubing to reach the spot in the mechanism that is frozen.  If inserted from the base of the window, maybe use a straw on WD-40, PB-Blaster, etc. and spray into the tube to get to the area that needs lubrication?  Lather, rinse, repeat.  Keep it up daily and give the crank a try little by little.  Might be worth a try.

 

That's pretty much what I did. I should have taken some photos. Lots of penetrating oil over about four days, gently moving it up and down. Didn't do much, unfortunately. I think the problem is in the rotating part that goes through the door panel. Without additional disassembly, it's not going to get better.

[Walt G]

Matt, unfortunate that you have to experience this but a great benefit to all for you taking the time to follow up and everyone seems to have valid points and possible options to solve the issue. This is what makes the AACA forums so great - problem solving as well beyond the sharing of the historic information, photos etc.

This is especially true in the winter months across most of the country when many of us may be house bound and have time to look here.

SO important to have factual input from experience - not instant look it up on the internet and believe every word that a online "cyclopedia" says is the truth and nothng but the truth because "experts " wrote it .

[chistech]

It sounds like there is a pulley that the cable is wound around. Most likely that pulley is driven through the handle with a planetary type gear system. It wouldn't be direct drive in most cases because the weight of the window would allow the window to simply open from the weight, spinning the window crank as it descended in its track. There is most likely a spring mechanism involved to aid in raising the window. When the 31 caddy comes in to my place I'll try to post some pictures of the regulators here as hopefully it will help others in the future. Again, there is a difference in years so the regulators might be different but they could be very similar.