1930: Navigate A Steep Hill In Reverse?

[keithb7]

I’ve of heard this tactic. Necessary for some cars I believe. What cars? Why?

 

Model A gravity fed carbs? Modet-T planetary transmissions? I’ve heard stories that drivers would pick a gear for a steep hill, traveling as fast as safely possible. To have momentum to aide the car up the hill. If the hill was long and steep, enough eventually you’d stall out? Engine die? Why? Vacuum fuel pump drained? Couldn’t down shift quick enough? No synchros on first gear? Could not drop a model T planetary drive into low range without stopping? Then it could power out and stop in high range?
 

Then coast backwards. Turn the car around coasting. Get it pointing downhill. Flash the engine up again. The navigate the remainder of the hill in reverse. Why?

 

 I’ve never driven a model T. I would like to some day to better understand what millions and millions of early drivers experienced. I’m guessing other car manufacturers besides the Fords mentioned also had similar issues?

 

Fill me in. Please! Thanks. 

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Model Ts.

[Bloo]

Not just Model T. Probably not all Model T. It was about running out of gas, not the transmission.

 

Factors that might limit your ability to get up a hill face first:

 

1) Gravity fed fuel.

2) Gas tank location. It is under the front seat in most Model T touring cars.

3) A hill steep enough to put the gas tank below the carburetor.

4) A hill long enough to run the car out of gas in the carburetor before it reaches the top.

 

There are plenty other cars out there that could have the issue and probably did, my 1913 Studebaker 25 included. Cars with the tank up in the cowl would have far less trouble if they had trouble at all. You don't see too many hills that steep on roads still in use.

 

Knapp's Hill in Washington State (replaced in 1936):

 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Bloo (see edit history)

[TerryB]

At an antique truck show I was speaking with the owner of a local trucking company located in my current residence of southeastern PA.  While chatting I mentioned I grew up in coal country outside Pottsville PA.  The fellow, who was up in years, told me he had to back up over the mountain on PA 501 from Pine Grove to Bethel with his six cylinder Chevy coal trucks so that the lowest gear, reverse, was able to keep the truck moving when it was fully loaded with coal. At the summit he was able to turn around and point the truck in the right direction.  True?  I guess so but I’ve never seen it done.  

[wayne sheldon]

The Stewart Warner vacuum tank came about around 1914, and for most other cars, made backing up hills unnecessary. Ford, however, continued to use gravity feed from under the front seat on the model T through 1925. Most "improved" 1926 and 1927 model Ts (except four door sedans and TT trucks) like the Model A Fords that followed used a gasoline tank in the body cowl which was high enough to not starve out on hills.

But the model T Ford for many years had gravity fed fuel from under the front seat, low enough and far enough back to starve out on steep hills.

 

I have backed up hills a few times in my model Ts.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I'm glad that someone asked. I've learned new things!

[Linus Tremaine]

There is a hill on a section of the original Lincoln Highway in wyoming called "Ford Defeat Hill". I always assumed it was because alot of times peoples low band was a little out of adjustment and rather than adjust it to get up that hill they would just go in reverse. Fuel supply makes sense too. 

 

 

[Mark Shaw]

2 hours ago, Bloo said:

Factors that might limit your ability to get up a hill face first:

The biggest factor is being low on fuel in combination with gravity feed from a tank under the seat.  This affects lots of brass era cars and I have had to back up hills a couple of times during long tour days in hilly country.  My 1913 Buick has a fuel tank under the seat that is now pressurized via a tube from the exhaust manifold to the sealed filler cap under the seat.  Since this was installed (with an inline spark arrestor) I have never needed to back up a hill.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[jpage]

I ran out of gas in my Model A just by pulling up an a roadside bank on the passenger side which caused the gas to run to the other side of the tank!

 

[Chris Bamford]

All true regarding Model Ts with their gas tank under the front seat (almost all models pre-1926). 
 

Another factor was gearing — Ts have only low and high speeds forward, but reverse is a lower ratio yet and would have better climbing power, provided you could get traction. 
 

It’s been said that the steepest grade one could climb in a T without starving for fuel is about 14%, which by coincidence or design is about the limit one could climb without starving the #1 rod for oil. Maybe correct, maybe not.  
 

I have personally had to back a ‘12 T roadster up a steep grade because of low fuel level (and have also lost the #1 rod Babbitt climbing a steep hill in my ‘24 Speedster.)

[Crusty Trucker]

This discussion reminds me of the stories my Dad used to tell about his family's adventures motoring in the family Model T, (1915 - 1920). Living in the hot and arid San Joaquin Valley of California, they chose to get away from the August heat by going to the ocean beach. Heading west to the coast, they sometimes found it necessary to back up hills, as noted above. (e.g. -Questa Grade, San Louis Obispo County, 15% grade and more prior to 1922)

The parts of the trip that Dad and his brother liked to reminisce about was coming back down. With the minimal braking capacity of the old T, they cut down a tall, bushy tree or found a log near the roadway, tied it to the back of the car and proceeded cautiously, forward, down the hill. The only problems with this solution were dry branches that snapped off the tree leaving little resistance on the grade, or the log twisting and gaining momentum and speed behind the car. 

Luckily, there were no catastrophes, just an uncertain ride now and again to the bottom of the hill.

The ballast was untied and pushed to the side of the road and no doubt used by nearby residents as firewood in the winter.

(As an aside, he also recalled horse watering troughs along the longer stretches of the trip).

 

Old road yesterday...

Today...

Edited May 15, 2022 by Crusty Trucker (see edit history)

[41 Su8]

While on a tour in the Finger Lakes in New York State we had to clime a very steep hill.  The road sign said 15% grade.  With a16 gallon torpedo tank, the car climbed the hill with ease.  I suppose the added head pressure of the larger tank had something to do with it.         John

[Chris Bamford]

4 hours ago, keithb7 said:

…I’ve never driven a model T. I would like to some day to better understand what millions and millions of early drivers experienced…

Keith, I think you are somewhere around Kamloops — we’ll be tootling down 97 bound for the Fraser Canyon in my ‘24 T Speedster on about June 23. If you can get over to Cache Creek or similar in that lovely ‘38 of yours I would be happy to exchange driving experiences….

[8E45E]

I can't exactly remember where (Burma Road?), did not have hairpin curves on steep hills for trucks to make turns.  Truckers alternately drove forward uphill forwards on the first grade, then reverse up the second grade. and so on, until he got to the summit when the road was level and straight once again.

 

Craig  

[Rata Road]

If your using a model T pre 1926 there is a few tricks. Take the fuel tank out from under the seat and raise the mounts a few inches. Its only a problem on a real steep grade plus if your fuel is getting low so carry a can or two and fill your tank at the bottom of the climb or before the steep part.

You can buy 6v fuel pumps and plumb one in just to use as required which removes the issue.

Going down - I have my carby idle set to stall and drive with the hand throttle two notches down when pulling over (to prevent stall) and on steep grades going forward I pull back the throttle & retard the timing, this gives you more engine braking. I haven't needed to tie a tree to the rear end to slow the decent...yet!

[keithb7]

Great to clear all this up thank you. I knew about the Model A with the fuel tank in the cowl. I did not know earlier T cars had the fuel tank under the seat. I gotta get in a T some day. I have thought about acquiring one yet have reservations. I live just on the outer fringe of my town. A fairly long, pretty steep hill, by today's standards. 11% at one point and several turns. I think I'd be 10 MPH probably in a T coming up the hill. Brakes on the way down could be an issue? My understanding is these lower compression engines did not offer much in the way of engine braking on the way down.

 

Some comments above reminded me of the vacuum tank back in the day. I understand Stewart Warner locked in a  pretty tight partnership with the inventor of the fuel vacuum tank. Lawsuits kept things locked down. They charged auto manufacturers quite a premium. Such high prices inspired many to try and compete in the market. Stubborn Henry Ford probably refused to use the vacuum tank. Part of his desire to drive Model T prices ever lower. Instead he likely moved the fuel tank up in the cowl to solve the known issue on steep hills. Then there was the concern with fires in the event of an accident in a Ford. I read about this topic in my Chrysler Engineering book.

Edited May 15, 2022 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Bloo]

Quite a few other cars had the tank up in the cowl by the mid teens, Hupmobile and Studebaker by 1914-15 for sure.

 

[keithb7]

5 hours ago, Chris Bamford said:

Keith, I think you are somewhere around Kamloops — we’ll be tootling down 97 bound for the Fraser Canyon in my ‘24 T Speedster on about June 23. If you can get over to Cache Creek or similar in that lovely ‘38 of yours I would be happy to exchange driving experiences….

I am in Kamloops but I am a working stiff still. Looks like you will be passing through on a week day. If it were a weekend I could likely meet you there. Be sure to hit the Mexican taco stand on the Hi-way, on the Northern end of Cache Creek. Best tacos I have ever had outside of Mexico. Fresh ingredients. Made as ordered. The entire place is run my Mexican workers. They bring authentic Mexican flavours and cooking to their little spot in Cache Creek. We drive out there a few times a year just for the tacos. 

 

As the date approaches, keep in contact if your travel date through Cache Creek changes. My 38's love the drive to C Creek.

 

Keith

 

 

Edited May 15, 2022 by keithb7 (see edit history)

[Rata Road]

You should buy one Keith they are really great, simple to work on and you can buy every single part from several suppliers (new) and unlimited amount of 2nd hand parts plus parts are cheap. Easily the cheapest car I've ever owned for parts, modern or old. I'm learning this lesson lately. I've just bought a 1930 Triumph and I can't buy anything for it, dont have to worry about the price as I just can't find anything.

I've got my eye on a 1930 Willys Knight 66B and that will be just about as bad. Model A & Model T Fords are so stress free.

I suggest before you buy one get on the Model T forum, it's very active and you will learn a heap in a short time.

 

Going down the steepest hill is fine if you hold it in low gear (foot on the left pedal), The general T rule is go down the hill the same speed you drove up it (if safety is your main concern).

 Kevin

New Zealand

[hook]

13 hours ago, jpage said:

I ran out of gas in my Model A just by pulling up an a roadside bank on the passenger side which caused the gas to run to the other side of the tank!

 

Having owned several Model A's, I'd say you were damn near empty when that happened.

[Chris Bamford]

7 hours ago, keithb7 said:

As the date approaches, keep in contact if your travel date through Cache Creek changes. My 38's love the drive to C Creek…

Will do, and thanks for the Taco Tip.

[edinmass]

Backing up a hill today in a modern car.  In the Azores, we came to this road, driving a 900cc Desiel car. There was another sign, saying no cars could drive up the hill. It warned it was 75 euros to have the tractor pull you up. It was a road with switchbacks and 500 foot cliffs. I drove down listening to the boss complain non stop. After lunch and a swim, I pulled up to the bottom of the hill, spun the car around, and drove up backwards in reverse without issues. The boss was VERY unhappy about that also. The tractor driver gave me a OK sign and a smile. It was quite the driving experience!

 

Yes that’s a 35 percent grade in spots……so you had to get your speed up……..along with the pucker factor.

Edited May 15, 2022 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

[Jubilee]

 I was forced to turn around and back gas powered semis ( 34-38’) trailers) up a steep grade in the late fifties. One was due to an overload of wheat in  K7 International, the other due to a dropped valve seat in a GMC.

  Tying the valve up the right distance with a small wire clamp sticks out more in my memory than the actual turning and backing although it was a fairly busy hi way (for the time) on the Canadian river bottom in Texas. The old rope in the cylinder trick to remove valve spring.

 Many people stopped to help. I Remember an electrician for the clamp, a plumber for a pipe wrench to turn over engine, and one guy had cold beer.

[JRA]

On 5/14/2022 at 7:23 PM, jpage said:

I ran out of gas in my Model A just by pulling up an a roadside bank on the passenger side which caused the gas to run to the other side of the tank!

 

I had similar issue last week with my Ford model A, the tank was less than 1/4 full and carburetor starved. The full tank solved the issue.

Edited May 16, 2022 by JRA (see edit history)