LS engine swap contagion(the new pandemic?)

[Seafoam65]

           Has anyone else noticed the huge increase in people putting LS Chevy motors in antique cars of all makes........a lot of them

aren't even GM cars. This was unheard of in the Riviera hobby 5 years ago and now they are everywhere. I'm not complaining

mind you because each time this is done my car increases in value.......but I think that one thing that is causing Riviera Grand Sports

to rocket in value the last couple of years is that they are starting to become the only nice stock 63-65 Rivieras out there for sale......all the

regular Rivieras have been highly modded, lowered, and stuffed with LS engines. People are even buying real Gran Sport 425 4 barrel cars and

putting LS motors in them. If you read the newsletter that the Australian Riviera group puts out, they are converting all their Rivieras to LS power

as fast as they can....it's spreading faster than Covid 19. As a car repair shop owner by trade, and as someone who sees  LS engines blow up all the time at

very low mileage, I would never own an LS powered vehicle if: (1) I had to pay to fix it or (2) I cared if I arrived at my destination or not. The LS motors GM is building right now

are seeing catastrophic hydraulic lifter failures that fill the whole engine with shrapnel  at as few as 4,000 miles on the odometer. I will stay with my 57 year old, fuddy duddy,

running perfect nailhead thank you very much! 

[edinmass]

I see a lot of younger guys buying high mileage LS junk yard  motors, installing all new gaskets, tossing on a turbo, and getting their relatively inexpensive toy to go very fast..........so I think the big LS craze is economically a way for people with limited funds to make a big change up for working people money.

Edited December 29, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

[telriv]

My boys have done it with a 30K engine that had a cracked block that my son welded up & has been using now for 6 years. Except for head gaskets, cylinder head studs, valve springs & camshaft (my boys designed) the engine is ALL COMPLETELY stock as it left the factory. Same used rings, cast pistons, original wrist pins, sintered iron con rods, original main, rod & cam bearings, even the original hydraulic lifters.

The car weighs 3200pds. the driver (not son) weighs 310pds. So 3500pds. Has run a best of 7.77ET@178MPH.  This is with only 22pds. of boost. Working up to 30 slowly to be able to get into the sixes. This is on a 6.0LS3 that started life at about 380HP.  Using the formula of MPH & weight works out to around 1350HP or so.

So they are POPULAR for a reason. 

At this moment I believe they have the worlds record for the longest lasting bottom end of ANY LS engine.

 

Tom T.

Edited December 29, 2021 by telriv (see edit history)

[edinmass]

 

telriv...........Remember back in the 70’s when 10 seconds was “light speed”? Times sure have changed. Hell, we laughed out loud the first time I saw a Honda Civic at the track. After a few passes, we did t laugh anymore. Not my cup of tea.........but they sure make strange thing go like hell today.

[1965rivgs]

  The older LS motors are absolutely bulletproof. Those are the motors making it into antique cars. We have 340K on our 2003 with MANY cross country, heavy towing miles and it still runs like a bear. I`ve never opened up the motor except for valve cover gaskets. The rest of the truck is rotting out around it so I`ll have to relegate it to plowing snow soon. If I came across a low mileage pre 2007 Escalade ESV with the right colors and equipmenyt I`d likely just write a check for the asking price and happily drive away.

  I have a friend who is a long time Cadillac dealer tech and he`s not crazy about the new LS motors.

Tom Mooney

[Seafoam65]

As edinmass and Tom T point out, the purpose to LS an old car is to have massive horsepower. This is

how the hobby has changed........the emphasis used to be on preserving the past for enjoying motoring

the way it was back in the day........now it's about  where can I find an old car to restomod it into a late model car

and will your early Riviera run 9's at the drag strip? My guess is that in ten more years it will be pretty much

impossible to find an original restored 60's automobile, as the restomod trend is just exploding right now and once

an old car has been modified to that extent it will never be stock again. Even Hemmings is jumping on the LS everything

in sight bandwagon.......that's pretty much all there is in Hemmings Muscle Machines magazine now. Recently

there was a feature where a  guy put an LS motor in   a very nice original 375 horse SS396 Chevelle. It is amusing how

the writers of these features always put in a paragraph about how it just had to be done because the old heap was

literally undriveable the way it was built from the factory.....so slow it couldn't get out of it's own way, brakes that made the car impossible to

stop, and the car was unable to go around a corner without flipping over! According to these writers, these mods had to be done or the car

would be too slow, dangerous and unreliable to actually drive it on the street. As I said earlier, I hope every old car other than my old cars

gets an LS swap so I can sell my cars for 150K each in ten more years. By the way I drive my stock restorations on the street so beware

if you see me and give me a wide berth because my cars won't stop or go around a corner without crashing, and i don't want you to get

caught up in the carnage! 

[Seafoam65]

8 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

  The older LS motors are absolutely bulletproof. Those are the motors making it into antique cars. We have 340K on our 2003 with MANY cross country, heavy towing miles and it still runs like a bear. I`ve never opened up the motor except for valve cover gaskets. The rest of the truck is rotting out around it so I`ll have to relegate it to plowing snow soon. If I came across a low mileage pre 2007 Escalade ESV with the right colors and equipmenyt I`d likely just write a check for the asking price and happily drive away.

  I have a friend who is a long time Cadillac dealer tech and he`s not crazy about the new LS motors.

Tom Mooney

Tom I had one of those bulletproof early LS motors in a 2003 Silverado i bought new.....it sent a rod through the block at 45,000 miles when a cracked head

caused the engine to hydrolock when starting it up one morning. I sold it after putting another engine  in it and bought a 1999 Ford Expedition with 241,000 miles on it's original 

5.4 engine. 12 years later the original engine has 350,000 miles on it and I know of an early Expedition with 581,000 miles on it's original engine.....THAT is my definition of "bulletproof".

[jframe]

12 hours ago, Seafoam65 said:

As edinmass and Tom T point out, the purpose to LS an old car is to have massive horsepower. This is

how the hobby has changed........the emphasis used to be on preserving the past for enjoying motoring

the way it was back in the day........now it's about  where can I find an old car to restomod it into a late model car

and will your early Riviera run 9's at the drag strip? My guess is that in ten more years it will be pretty much

impossible to find an original restored 60's automobile, as the restomod trend is just exploding right now and once

an old car has been modified to that extent it will never be stock again. Even Hemmings is jumping on the LS everything

in sight bandwagon.......that's pretty much all there is in Hemmings Muscle Machines magazine now. Recently

there was a feature where a  guy put an LS motor in   a very nice original 375 horse SS396 Chevelle. It is amusing how

the writers of these features always put in a paragraph about how it just had to be done because the old heap was

literally undriveable the way it was built from the factory.....so slow it couldn't get out of it's own way, brakes that made the car impossible to

stop, and the car was unable to go around a corner without flipping over! According to these writers, these mods had to be done or the car

would be too slow, dangerous and unreliable to actually drive it on the street. As I said earlier, I hope every old car other than my old cars

gets an LS swap so I can sell my cars for 150K each in ten more years. By the way I drive my stock restorations on the street so beware

if you see me and give me a wide berth because my cars won't stop or go around a corner without crashing, and i don't want you to get

caught up in the carnage! 

I tend to agree with you. If folks want to do these swaps, I guess it's ok; it's their car. I get ridiculed some on Facebook if I say anything about an LS in an early Riv, because I am a 52 year old "fuddy duddy" that only likes stock, and stock is "boring". Thing is, when I drive an old or older car, I want to have that EXPERIENCE. I like hitting the choke on a cold morning, and letting it run just a minute before I drive off, as well as smelling the gas and exhaust and oil a bit. Nailheads to me have a certain personality to them that an LS can never have. I'm even keeping my '89 Corvette six speed stock, other than exhaust, because I simply like the raw feel of the car. I've had two C5 Corvettes, and while they were nice and fast too, they just didn't feel like a 'vette to me when I drove them. If I want a high power LS vehicle that brakes, stops, and steers like a Corvette, I'd just buy a Corvette with one in it.

[RivNut]

I know of one person who put an LS engine with accompanying transmission in his 63. He bought the car without an engine and transmission.  I wonder if these guys that Mark refers to on Facebook have actually done what they're talking about.  The one guy that I know of who did the LS transplant had to spend $1,000+ on a dry sump system because there was no way that the LS oil pan would clear the front cross member.  I read some of their post and I'm of the opinion that because of anonymity they can say whatever they're dreaming of without doing anything but posting on FB.

[Seafoam65]

Ed, it's my understanding that putting an LS in an early Riviera requires  extensive frame modifications thus it is much

more expensive and difficult than putting one in an A-body.The ones I have seen in magazines that were done to early Rivieras

 were done while the body was removed from the frame. I would like to hear from someone who has actually done this swap

to chime in on what specifically is involved.

[Seafoam65]

               One big aspect of all this that is going on right now is the explosion of people putting LS engines and 

late model style chassis in 63-67 Corvettes. Art Morrison makes a frame to stick under the 63-67 bodies

that is set up with late model Corvette suspensions with LS mountings and  rack and pinion steering. One reason a lot of people

are doing this to mid year Corvettes that need restoration work is the incredible dollars they are bringing at

auctions like Barrett Jackson. From what I've read, a lot of people are building these cars and then selling them

for 100,000 dollars  more than they cost to build. In my opinion in ten years all the small block mid year Corvettes will

have been converted to LS powertrains. I think the 427 cars will remain stock at least for now. A lot of shops are using a business model

where they build these mid year Vettes and immediately sell them at a huge profit. One of my friends built an LS7 powered 67 Vette roadster

with the undercarriage off a rollover wrecked Z06 Corvette and he's been offered 100K more than he spent on the build,, which he totally

farmed out and paid others to do.  

[kegart]

5 hours ago, RivNut said:

I know of one person who put an LS engine with accompanying transmission in his 63. He bought the car without an engine and transmission.  I wonder if these guys that Mark refers to on Facebook have actually done what they're talking about.  The one guy that I know of who did the LS transplant had to spend $1,000+ on a dry sump system because there was no way that the LS oil pan would clear the front cross member.  I read some of their post and I'm of the opinion that because of anonymity they can say whatever they're dreaming of without doing anything but posting on FB.

Sometimes when you do what you think is the cheapest way, in the end it isn't. 

 

Kevin 

Edited December 30, 2021 by kegart (see edit history)

[SwedeDownUnderR63]

Tony Gentilcore, Down Under, has done a swap as the engine in his 65 wasn’t original and in need of repair. You might find this interesting or not depending on your views. Note his comment about the cost, twice the price compared to a renovation of a nailhead.

https://www.machinesandmacchiatos.org/read/1965-buick-riviera

Edited December 30, 2021 by SwedeDownUnderR63 (see edit history)

[jframe]

2 hours ago, RivNut said:

I know of one person who put an LS engine with accompanying transmission in his 63. He bought the car without an engine and transmission.  I wonder if these guys that Mark refers to on Facebook have actually done what they're talking about.  The one guy that I know of who did the LS transplant had to spend $1,000+ on a dry sump system because there was no way that the LS oil pan would clear the front cross member.  I read some of their post and I'm of the opinion that because of anonymity they can say whatever they're dreaming of without doing anything but posting on FB.

Most of them say that at least it keeps another Riv on the road

[arnulfo de l.a.]

That LS installation by TONY GENTILCORE looks clean and vey well done. Personally i feel that if dropping an LS into a rivi will save it from the crusher or sold in parts I am all for it.

[drhach]

Hot rodding has always been about people doing all they can with the least amount of money possible. Look at those old pictures from the 50's. Talk about a hodge podge. The collector car market has priced most people out of the hobby. You can look down your nose at the folks who do the best they can with what they have, but how else is a 20-30 year old going to gain entry in the hobby? I'd bet you could count on one hand the number of people in this forum who are under 50. 

[Paul K.]

7 hours ago, jframe said:

I tend to agree with you. If folks want to do these swaps, I guess it's ok; it's their car. I get ridiculed some on Facebook if I say anything about an LS in an early Riv, because I am a 52 year old "fuddy duddy" that only likes stock, and stock is "boring". Thing is, when I drive an old or older car, I want to have that EXPERIENCE. I like hitting the choke on a cold morning, and letting it run just a minute before I drive off, as well as smelling the gas and exhaust and oil a bit. Nailheads to me have a certain personality to them that an LS can never have. I'm even keeping my '89 Corvette six speed stock, other than exhaust, because I simply like the raw feel of the car. I've had two C5 Corvettes, and while they were nice and fast too, they just didn't feel like a 'vette to me when I drove them. If I want a high power LS vehicle that brakes, stops, and steers like a Corvette, I'd just buy a Corvette with one in it.

I "liked" this post and would 100 times if it wouldn't be an annoyance.   

 

@drhach - Of my students had an LS in his Nissan 240. Went like crazy and good work, but it really wasn't a NIssan. Lots of speed for the $$ he had. 

 

I totally agree with the jframe's comment and as a 57 year old "fuddy duddy", stock is not boring to me, its what I prefer.  I also prefer large cars vs small and not because of my age as younger kids speculate to me today. In high school I had 2 cars, my '64 Riv (still own) and a '69 Cadillac Convertible. Good times. 

 

Engine swapping has been going on for years, but the closest thing I can compare to a relatively modern day resto-mod or engine swap with the goal to "make it better" would be the Jaguars where many of the inline sixes were swapped with a Chevy V8. The Jag 4.2 DOHC inline 6 was a smooth, refined and very quiet like a cat should be   The few times I have driven Jaguars with the Chevy conversion all the "soul" of the car was lost, not to mention it was louder and just felt "wrong". Another example is Studebaker who during its last 2 years of existence installed Chevy V8s vs their own 289 V8 which there was no supply toward the end of the company. Putting opinions aside, Studebaker made a good car and a very durable engine. The 65s and 66s with Chevy motors didn't feel or sound like a Studie. 

 

Its possible the LS conversions will wane to be replaced with electric conversions for classics. Although not correct, it would be a sustainable choice to maintain the vehicle's value if gas prices go higher, taxes are imposed for fossil fuel, proposed mileage tracking fees (Oregon), etc.

 

As another year comes to an end, its more apparent that fast changing and uncertain times are ahead for lots of things and not just cars. Some days I just want to leave my phone at home get in, one of my old cars and take a drive where no one can find me.   

  

Edited December 30, 2021 by Paul K. (see edit history)

[jframe]

Think the worst one I saw, at least to me personally, was a guy going down the road in my town in a really nice white with red interior '64 Riv. Since these cars are just not seen in North Alabama, I followed him til he stopped at a marina a short distance from where we lived at the time. Car was done right; paint was good and he DID have a nice set of larger (not huge) aftermarket wheels and tires. He'd also given the car a decent lowered stance, but not slammed to the ground. The interior was really nice when I sat down in it. I asked to see under the hood, and when he popped it open, there lay a Goodwrench crate Chevy 350. Not an LS, not even one of the pretty good crate performance engines that GM does, but a basic 350 like you would stick back in your square body work truck just to make it last on the farm for a little longer. He was like "well, you know how those Nailheads are", whatever THAT was supposed to mean. Just seemed a shame to go so cheap with stock Chevy small block in an otherwise awesome looking Riviera.

[RivNut]

I met a young kid just out of high school whose grandfather gifted him a 63 Riviera with a blown engine.  He put a 455 Buick backed by a 200-4R.  When I asked him why he didn’t put a nailhead back into it, he said that he looked but couldn’t find one.  After some more talk, he told me that he gave up after a day of looking online. Kids 😬

[sixxer]

I’m the person RivNut mentioned. I’ve found over the years it’s easier to just tell people “it’s stock” when they ask what’s under the hood unfortunately. Ironically nobody seems to care that the previous owner ripped its original engine and trans out for a hot rod project and left it outside for 20 years in a field to rot but  I “ruined” it by swapping in an LS motor. 
 

[protrash63]

On 12/30/2021 at 10:24 AM, Seafoam65 said:

Ed, it's my understanding that putting an LS in an early Riviera requires  extensive frame modifications thus it is much

more expensive and difficult than putting one in an A-body.The ones I have seen in magazines that were done to early Rivieras

 were done while the body was removed from the frame. I would like to hear from someone who has actually done this swap

to chime in on what specifically is involved.

  Havent done it and not planning it but have seen it done and there are a few different routes to be taken. One is a Xmember swap to MII or equivalent. The other route I have seen is sectioning the factory Xmember for clearance, batwing pan on the trans AND flipping the spindles from left and right to make a front steer. Not kidding.  I researched quite a bit before buying a Riv and decided that I would go with the expense of the engine rather than all the other work to swap it. Guess it depends on ones skills and parts availability.  I believe the Roadster Shop makes a replacement frame allowing all the stuff to work.

Edited January 1, 2022 by protrash63 (see edit history)

[protrash63]

On 12/30/2021 at 7:22 AM, jframe said:

Thing is, when I drive an old or older car, I want to have that EXPERIENCE. I like hitting the choke on a cold morning, and letting it run just a minute before I drive off, as well as smelling the gas and exhaust and oil a bit.

   Exactly...all my 60's Chevy pickups have had discs installed but I always ran manual brakes to keep my right thigh in shape!  LOL  I liked the feel of it along with manual steering too.

 

No 8 tracks I have to admit.

[kegart]

It probably won't be long we will see Rivieras being  converted to electric. 

 

Kevin 

Edited January 2, 2022 by kegart (see edit history)

[Byondxtrme]

After just rebuilding my nailhead and trans, it would have been cheaper going LS, plus more power, better gas mileage. Only reason I didn’t, wanted to keep it numbers matching.

[Brtele]

I know I’m new to this forum, but in my opinion, mods are a gray area - disk brakes, electronic ignition, fuel injection, interior, paint colors, engines, etc.

 

 Sometimes mods are based on your style/taste, other times it’s based on reliability, functionality, drivability or availability.

 

I don’t lean into mods over stock, but when I do I try to keep the original part for the next owner if and when I sell it (especially on a car as limited as these 1st gens are).  I hope others save the original parts so the next owner has the option to go back to stock.

 

I do like some of the ingenuity behind some of these mods. Way beyond my intelligence level.

 

 

[60FlatTop]

12 hours ago, Brtele said:

Sometimes mods are based on your style/taste, other times it’s based on reliability, functionality, drivability or availability.

Or the ability to correctly diagnose, repair, and fund the correct repair to what was professionally engineered to begin with. Over the past 50 years I have had the thought that a majority of these mods may not be a pandemic but a panacea.

 

And so many people have never driven an original in its optimal operating condition. If one already think old cars perform poorly they are inclined to believe the mod is the cure.

 

In my other life I optimize buildings and power plants. The best way to make things work right is to remove the "improvements" and achieve the original basis of design.

 

My only modded car has the roof cut off. The rest is stock.

[CTX-SLPR]

I have a 4.1L Buick Turbo6 in my '64 though I've gone out of my way to avoid making the car hard to convert back to the original 425 Nailhead that I have sitting in a crate in the shed.  I started this in 2006 though and then it was a cutting-edge motor, now not so much.    It's one of a kind and with all the future plans I have, I'm trying to avoid permeant mods to get a car that drives more like a 90's grand touring coupe.  I'd LS swap something else easy to change back (or far more common), not the Riv with the centersump pan unless you're going complete dry sump to avoid the cross member.