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1937 Lincoln Town Car


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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

I have a big block Chevy and a 700R4 sitting in my storage room and I have certainly contemplated sticking it into my Lincoln. I don't particularly want a Chevy powered Lincoln, but I did go far enough to measure and determine that the engine would physically fit in the Lincoln's engine bay. If I were seriously doing it, I would prefer a manual transmission, something with an overdrive. The Lincoln uses a torque tube so you'd also need to change the rear end, which means changing the rear brakes, and as long as you're changing the rear brakes, you should probably change the front brakes so they're all hydraulic. And if you're changing the front brakes you probably won't find hydraulic brakes that bolt on to the Lincoln beam axle so now you're upgrading the front suspension. Whatever axle and suspension you use, it's unlikely that the original wheels will fit any more, and now you're changing the steering and the steering column and the steering wheel and the gauges and, well, a simple engine swap turns into a real nightmare that steals any remaining soul that the car might have had. 

You just built a streetrod, but you forgot airbags to lower it. Or, you could go all out & make a hopper out of it.😁

My thoughts in asking about an engine swap were along the line of a period Ford or Lincoln that would bolt up. Heck, maybe even an old Caddy with an adapter plate to bolt it to the trans.

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The problem is supply and demand. The supply of good driving cars exceeds the current demand.....thus rough, projects, and old restoration pulled out of long storage needing sorting are almost zero value. Tires, tubes, and the basics just to get the car started and going down the road will be 15 grand. (Lincoln K) Then add in broken items, missing parts, and lots of other problems and issues.........unless you have TIME & TALENT many cars are not worth considering. The hobby is evolving again, and good cars are available cheap.....especially if your flexible on years/makes/models. The first thing I asked myself when I look at any car that is being offered for sale is...........with my limited time........ is this thing worth my effort.  It takes a very unusual car for me to say yes to that question. I really don’t need any more cars, so that anything that gets added now has to be really interesting, unusual, and obscure. If the Lincoln in the beginning of this thread were given to me, I would say thank you no. I think it’s a good car, I think with the right amount of service it would be a fun car to drive. And I have owned this platform in the past. That said I don’t wanna give up garage space, my time, effort, and money.......... even if you gave it to me for free. Willingness and desire are very important non-tangible variables in the equation of collecting old cars. That’s when I do the mental calculation on 90% of what I see it plugs a zero into the equation....... and that makes the math always come to zero. Which means I pass. Doesn’t mean it’s not a good car, or an  unworthy project........

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

Steve,  agreed and definitely the first choice.   But the donor needs to be further down the pecking order and running.   Although this car is a catalog custom, it is still a seven passenger limo.   Not the most desirable.   So the pecking order below it on the K chassis is not a lot of cars.   Then you still need a running car that has a beat to death body and chassis.   Seems like threading the needle.

AJ:

Yes , you are right, a Judkins 3-window limousine is a distance down the desirability pecking order among late Lincoln K's.   My point, not well stated, was if its the choice between maintaining a factory-bodied sedan or limousine however dilapidated and reviving a series-custom-bodied example, the choice is easy.   Indeed, it likely has very long odds such a donor car exist and can be located, but never say 'never', stranger things have happened.  Where is the 'Dallas Winslow' of K Lincoln engines when you need one?

Steve

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7 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

From reading your replies to this thread, you seem fairly knowledgeable on these cars, but your thinking and views also seem very skewed to dollar amounts when a car is sold, or in your case maybe when it's flipped? Some would rather see a car like this back on the road even with an incorrect engine than not see it at all. I'm sure there are snobs & people only concerned amount dollar values of their "investments" in this hobby(a now laughable term), but there are others who would welcome a chance at seeing, studying, driving, riding, and even owning a car such as this EVEN WITH A WRONG ENGINE.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

No not a flipper, not expecting any profit on any of my cars. 100% THIS IS A HOBBY. . . . BUT how much can you afford to spend to participate? 

 

I have a 1929 Cadillac Town sedan that I have $50,000 cash invested in (my own free labor)  When it sells (I plan to keep it for along time) it will only bring back $30,000. I understand that my ticket to the car hobby will cost me $20,000. Fortunately I am in a position to absorb this loss. 

 

I also have a 1966 Mercury Park Lane convertible in which I have $25,000 cash invested (again my own labor) Could I get $25k?? Maybe. . . .  but it wouldn't be quick. More likely I would "only" lose $10,000 when it sells. 

 

I have many other cars that I am also currently putting money into (aka restoring) I am certain that I am not alone in this area. As I fix them I MUST consider how much I have into each one. My supply of available funds to do this is a reality. Sometimes I walk into my garage and instead of seeing the cars, I think about how much cash is in each one and it is easy to ignore the cars and instead visualize a stack of $100 bills sitting in each parking place.  In order to raise the money to restore another one, or make the space for a different one, a car must be sold. When that happens your loss is sealed. 

 

I know that it is a hobby, you are not suppose to make a profit . . . . but how much can you lose on each project? 

Some of us very little, some of us much more. 

 

Restoring cars is kind of like being a fan of live theatre and concerts. In both situations you spend money to buy your way into an experience that is only for your enjoyment and you understand that once you have enjoyed the experience (the concert or the car) you are going to take a monetary loss on your source of enjoyment.  

 

Some people buy very expensive opening night front row tickets. (thousands of dollars) One showing and poof the money is gone. 

Some people buy cars to restore and after their enjoyment is over (many times it is their estate) the car is sold and poof the monetary loss from their collector car ownership is sealed. 

Those of us who simply cant face the monetary loss, push the car outside and tell people that "I'm gonna restore it someday" and turn down all realistic offers to sell it. 

 

I absolutely agree that the car that started this thread is a wonderful car!!

It is "only" $25,000 . . . . It is an excellent way to get into a beautiful full classic. And it would give you a lot of enjoyment as you rebuild it and put it back on the road. My suggestion is for you to call the seller, make a deal and start down the path of an easy restoration.  It certainly isnt going to cost you that much . . . 

 

In the meantime I am working on and putting money into (deriving enjoyment from) my recently acquired 1942 Hudson. 

 

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It's not a car that I could just take a joyride in. The front seats look uncomfortable and it would be like having a hearse as family station wagon.

Someday one would have to sell this rejuvenated car that they paid close to the same as a running car of the same type. It will be a hard sell.

Edited by supercub (see edit history)
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One of my neighbors, a "car enthusiast," bought a 1953 Rolls Royce with a Cadillac engine in it. Maybe 10 or 12 years ago. I assume he got it cheap. Also he only kept it a few years, maybe 5. He said it was a dog. But it was funny to see him driving around this low income rural neighborhood in a vintage Rolls. And it was very nice looking, the light tan leather interior. Why'd he buy it? Who knows. He has money from rental home income and can afford to buy stuff just for fun. Doesn't ever like to lose money though so I assume he bought it cheap then sold it for break even. Mostly he liked to go to hotrod shows like Hot August Nights in Reno with his chopped Merc with the Camaro engine. Maybe he had wanted to sit in the back of the Rolls and have me drive him around? But I never offered to do that.

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It makes me sad. However, almost everything happening in the world today makes me sad. And, it has been like watching a horrible car wreck in extremely slow motion. Fifty years ago, so many hobbyists put some effort (and money!) into getting and keeping spare major parts for many of the cars they had. I remember walking around Jack Passey's place (he let me wander around behind his buildings unchecked!) and looking at all the engines and parts of chassis he had scattered and piled here and there. I could only guess at the number of Lincoln motors he had (mostly model L V8s). Must have been twenty or thirty of them, maybe more. I remember at least one fancy looking V12, and can only wonder when I think about it what may have become of it. There were other engines and etc also. I seem to recall a Locomobile motor and radiator on a cutoff frame.

Over the years, hobbyists stopped trying to keep such things. Cars would sell, and the seller would be stuck with whatever extras they had. I often heard of older hobbyists trying to sell major parts they no longer had any use for, and often nobody else wanted to handle or store them either. People would say" If it breaks I will just have to find one somewhere" and sometimes the additional comment that "there is still a lot of that stuff around!"

Coupled with the "if it ain't perfect, throw it out" attitude so many people have? (You probably wouldn't believe some of the nasty parts I have repaired over the years!) I cringe at the thought of how may valuable antique and Classic engines have gone to scrap in the past thirty or forty years.

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19 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

You just built a streetrod, but you forgot airbags to lower it. Or, you could go all out & make a hopper out of it.😁

My thoughts in asking about an engine swap were along the line of a period Ford or Lincoln that would bolt up. Heck, maybe even an old Caddy with an adapter plate to bolt it to the trans.

 

That occurred to me as well. I don't want a street rod, so I didn't really pursue it beyond some measurements and abstract thinking, but if I got to the point with my car where the alternative was crushing it, perhaps it was something to consider. I don't know, I'm not really rational about it anymore.

 

However, as someone else mentioned, it takes a lot of engine to move these cars. I think the Lincoln V12 makes 370 pounds of torque at 1200 RPM, something crazy like that. There aren't many engines that can do that, old or new. Diesel maybe, which would be fun to consider. But anything off the Ford shelf wouldn't work unless you're looking at late-model truck motors like the aforementioned V10 or a big block 460 or something like that. Will those connect to the original transmission? You could probably make an adapter plate. Will the original transmission survive? The torque tube driveshaft? The rear end? Axles? Who knows? As soon as you start changing parameters, you start stressing old parts in a different way. A big block V8 might make enough torque to move the car, but will the horsepower or added RPM cause failure elsewhere? That's the problem with modifications--they always cause unintended side-effects. It's the old lady who swallowed a fly.

 

This is probably why most hot rods have the same powertrain. It's tested, tried, and proven. No need to reinvent the wheel. Just order the parts that everyone else has used for the past 45 years and it'll work. Boring as hell, but it works without a lot of thinking or engineering, which is really what most guys want. However, making a heavy car like this Lincoln (which probably has a curb weight approaching 6500 pounds) work with a period 100-horsepower flathead V8 or even a 150 horsepower Cadillac V8 would probably lead to rather disappointing performance. Without all that torque just off idle, it's going to be hard to get this car to move with any enthusiasm.

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What is sad is Willoughby made a total of 70 bodies in 1937 that Lincoln sold. Lincoln sold 990 cars in 1937.    In 1938, 56 WIlloughbys and 6 in 1939. How many are left? I would guess less than 10%. Just hate to see history become only pictures at best.

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Here's a little perspective of its life as a used car, from the N.A.D.A. Used Car Guide, effective Jan 1, to Feb 29, 1948:

1937 Lincoln Limousine, Body by Willoughby, Model 369, Factory Priced: $5,850.

Average As Is: $230.

Average Retail: $285.

Every 1937 Lincoln-Zephyr retailed for more money...

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By 1937 only 977 Lincoln Model Ks were built, negligible production balanced against the Zephyr's production of over 29,000.
... its innovative 75-degree V-12 engine, developed directly from the Ford flathead V-8, with 267 cubic inches displacement and 110 horsepower, a power plant that continued the V-12 tradition of Lincoln's famed Model K super-luxury series but at reasonable cost. 

https://hymanltd.com/vehicles/4900-1937-lincoln-zephyr-v-12/

4900.jpg

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14 hours ago, Renascence said:

Lincoln sold 990 cars in 1937. 

Edsel was asked once why he discontinued production of the big Lincoln K. 

His answer: "We never stopped making them, the public just stopped buying them"

Packard and Cad were in the same position with their 12 and 16. 

 

A big, heavy, formal, chauffer driven car when the move was to smaller, lighter, casual, owner driven cars.  

The super wealthy were happy to display their station in society through one of those new 1940 Zephyr Continentals and not a heavy sedan. If they wanted a four door they went for a Cad 60 special. 

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7 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Here's a little perspective of its life as a used car, from the N.A.D.A. Used Car Guide, effective Jan 1, to Feb 29, 1948:

1937 Lincoln Limousine, Body by Willoughby, Model 369, Factory Priced: $5,850.

Average As Is: $230.

Average Retail: $285.

Every 1937 Lincoln-Zephyr retailed for more money...

That's amazing.

An eleven-year-old car that lost 95% of its purchase price, not to mention 1937-48 inflation.

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4 hours ago, suchan said:

That's amazing.

An eleven-year-old car that lost 95% of its purchase price, not to mention 1937-48 inflation.

 

That was pretty much the rule across the board in the 1930s.   Much like a couch is today.   Pay 3k for a couch,  bring it home and sit on it, and you can put it out front with a "free" sign if you want to get rid of it.

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It was worse for open-front, severely-formal town cars:

1937 Lincoln Panel Brougham, Body by Willoughby, Model 373, Factory Priced: $7,050.

Average As Is: $250.

Average Retail: $315.

Truly a mystery how any survive.  Too worthless to sell, but still too good to junk...

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13 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

That was pretty much the rule across the board in the 1930s.   Much like a couch is today.   Pay 3k for a couch,  bring it home and sit on it, and you can put it out front with a "free" sign if you want to get rid of it.

 

I agree, my wife and daughter just dragged home a....

 

How did WWII affect things a few years later? On the one hand car production stopped, on the other gas was severely rationed. One of the things I wish I asked my dad or grandparents...

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17 hours ago, prewarnut said:

How did WWII affect things a few years later? On the one hand car production stopped, on the other gas was severely rationed. One of the things I wish I asked my dad or grandparents...

 

When car production was halted in 1942 and struggled to restart in 1945-6 used cars were at a premium.

 

But the big heavy cars (Full Classics today) did not enjoy the bump in used car interest and value that more normal cars did. 

1. They were BIG - sizes that did not fit easily into a normal garage or parking space. 

2. They were huge gas hogs  - even as rationing ended gas prices would be a concern

3. They were and are complex and difficult to repair -  Not something a handyman could fix in his driveway. Specialized tools and scarce parts would be needed. (compare to a 15 year old tired Rolls) 

 

There were more than a few mint examples that had been put up on blocks in the garage of a wealthy estate, but when these surfaced hardly anyone thought of them as transportation. 

If you were a typical person with transportation needs you would skip the Classics and stick with a used version from the big three. 

 

To understand the interest and depreciation of big Classics compare them to used clothing at a thrift store. 

What does a new pair of Levis cost?

What does a custom tailored, 100% silk tuxedo cost?

 

Donate both to a thrift store. You will have people fighting over the Levis (especially if they are a popular size) and they will quickly sell. 

The very formal tuxedo will hang on the rack until it ends up in the dumpster. Like who would even pay anything for it?

This was the world of full Classics with formal bodies as they became used cars. 

Edited by m-mman (see edit history)
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m-mman:

Fine explanation of the postwar situation in which a glut of pre-war luxury cars developed.  By way of further perspective, what was available to the general public during early 1948 shopping for a used car in that $285-$315 range?   

As follows:

All 1937 Chevrolets, Ford and Plymouths were retailed from $320 up, except the Plymouth Business P3 coupe $290 and a few Ford V8 60's.

All 1937, some 1938 and a few 1939 Willys and American Bantams were retail at for below $315.

Most 1937 Studebakers, Terraplanes, Lafayettes, Grahams, but few Nashes and Hudsons. 

Pretty much all 1937-'38 Hupmobiles, if you could find one, were very cheap, service was up to local garages, write Dallas Winslow for parts.

Noted for 1936 model and earlier, dependent upon make, $250 and under.

No listing for any expensive defunct makes such as Cord or Auburn or any imported nameplate.    Those were so exotic, regarded the same as a spaceship from Mars.

 

So, for the working stiffs without much budget to buy a used car for his family, a clapped-out ten-plus-year-old jalopy that he might wring a few more miles out of by his ingenuity, sweat and swear were his only options.  However cheap that fine Pierce-Arrow Twelve might be, it just wasn't a viable option.

 

Steve  

 

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1 hour ago, 58L-Y8 said:

However cheap that fine Pierce-Arrow Twelve might be, it just wasn't a viable option.

Plus the status symbol image that the big Classics carried meant that if you did show up with a mechanically pure big 8 cylinder Packard or Pierce in a sensible 7 passenger sedan style, your post-war suburban neighbors would think that you were trying to become a little "uppity".  Taking your boss to lunch in a Pierce Arrow while he drove a newer Buick, might get you some repercussions. 

 

AND we haven't even mentioned that tires in a size that would fit the Classics were unobtainable, while tires for the Plymouth could be had at Sears or Pep Boys. 

You were correct in your astonishment that ANY of the big formal Full Classics survived. (of course many, many 'became' sporty open body styles that exist today) 

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Sadly every vehicle I have seen where the body was "shot" had an equal crappy engine that was missing many parts. I knew a n old dowager about 5 years ago in Kansas area that had 6 Lincoln K  engines and parts galore. Found her in Hemmings Motor News. Not sure what happened to those engines and parts. They were for the years 1936, 1937 and 1938 and all "K" cars. 

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10 hours ago, m-mman said:

 

There were more than a few mint examples that had been put up on blocks in the garage of a wealthy estate, but when these surfaced hardly anyone thought of them as transportation. 

If you were a typical person with transportation needs you would skip the Classics and stick with a used version from the big three.

I recall Jack Passey telling me, many years ago, that when he began to collect heavy classics in the late 1940s, the most he ever paid for a car from a non-collector was $200 for an especially fine specimen.

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