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1937 Lincoln Town Car


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1937 Lincoln Town Car
$26,000
Listed a day ago in Fond du Lac, WI
Driven 31,968 miles
Manual transmission
Clean title
I am selling my extremely rare 1937 Willoughby Limo. Obviously not a Town Car, but Facebook requires one of their models. I have owned it since 2008. It is complete, the V-12 engine had been rebuilt by previous owner, but sat in a museum for a few years after and the fuel system needs work. I've rebuilt the carb and fuel pump, and will be cleaning the fuel tank and getting it running again later this year after I recoup from back surgery. The interior is quite nice, all original, all pieces present including clock. The exterior is an older repaint and presentable. I have the greyhound hood ornament. As you can see from the pictures, I've done some disassembly. The top is incorrect with modern vinyl convertible material not the cobra grain that I believe was original. I have too many projects, so if someone is interested, please give me a call @ [hidden information]., I'd love to discuss it with you. I originally paid $36,000 for the car in '08, but am willing to let it go for $26,000 OBO to see it go to a good home. Thanks! Wally
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IMHO Fords and Lincolns from the mid 30's are very well styled.  I have always liked the Judkins bodied Lincoln model K's from the mid to late 30's.  What's the difference between this town car and a model K?

 

There is a lot to like for 26 grand.  If his fuel system repairs get the engine running it gets even better.  I wish I could provide the home it needs!

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1 hour ago, alsancle said:

This is in fact a Lincoln Model K with Judkins Limo coachwork.   If it won't run it is a parts car and probably not worth 26k.

I guess that's why I like it so much.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, alsancle said:

This is in fact a Lincoln Model K with Judkins Limo coachwork.   If it won't run it is a parts car and probably not worth 26k.

 

Once upon a time, many cars were considered

parts cars that, thankfully, didn't get destroyed

and now have been restored.  Posterity thanks

any ambitious owner who keeps history alive!

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I understand that it looks like a good solid old car.   The issue is the aluminum head V12.   If the motor is junk,  the chances of someone dumping the 30-50k in to the engine is minimal.     I think if it was a flathead straight eight that can still be done for under 20k I would have a different opinion.

 

This thread is educational:

 

 

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“I understand that it looks like a good solid old car.   The issue is the aluminum head V12.   If the motor is junk,  the chances of someone dumping the 30-50k in to the engine is minimal.     I think if it was a flathead straight eight that can still be done for under 20k I would have a different opinion.”

Along this line of thinking, can a flathead V8 be swapped into the car to replace the V12? Or does it create a lot more issues? I never saw or heard of it being done.

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6 hours ago, billorn said:

No way a little flathead V8 can move that much car.................. You need TORQUE............

If the V12 is beyond saving, maybe a contemporary Caddy flathead?

A pity to have to do that to such a great car, but it's even worse, in my mind, for it to become a doorstop in a museum because of economics and a bad motor.

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12 minutes ago, alsancle said:


Finding someone who knows what they are doing to work on it.


 

Exactly what I was thinking!

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More difficult? Yes.

 

No, not the same engine. The Zephyr/Continental v12 is a lot closer to the flathead V8 than this is. Even a zephyr is going to be quite a bit tougher than a V8.

 

It's easy to spend $8000 on a flathead V8 if there isn't much wrong (but by this time they are all full of cracks). Your mileage may vary.

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The Lincoln K V-12 is a completely different animal from the Series H V-12 Lincoln-Zephyr engines.   The K is still the old barrel crankcase, separate cylinder blocks mounted for each bank.  More an engine of pre-mono-block design.  The H series are mono-block construction but have all their own issues as well, not the least of which was running the exhaust passages through the block to the outsides.  In addition to creating hotspots on the adjacent cylinder walls, it loaded the cooling system with exhaust heat.

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This looks very much like the K Lincoln that was sold at the J.C Daniels auction in Pampa Texas. 

 

I was there and that K Lincoln (very nice blue limo) was described as having a serious engine problem . . .Heads? Head gasket? Whatever, it had not run in a looooong time. 

 

Here is the math: This is a Pebble Beach winner for $90,000 and it has been for sale for a while.  (how much was spent on it??) 

https://classicpromenade.com/for-sale/1937-lincoln-k-brunn-limousine-2/ 

 

Steve Snyder is offering a RUNNING one for $30,000 . . . 

https://www.vaultcars.com/1939-lincoln-k-judkins-5-passenger-limousine

 

Buy the blue car for $25,000 and put $30,000(+) into the motor. . . THEN begin spending on the rest of the long parked car. 

 

These K Lincolns; Nice cars, handsome cars, quality cars, powerful cars . . . However, think of them as the Edsel, Kaiser, Studebaker, Corvair of the Classic world. No matter how much you spend on them, they just arent going to return much on sale. 

 

"Parts car" implies that it is going for scrap.

In the world of Full Classics, I think that this is going to be nothing but a static museum display. 

 

Think of it in the same vein as the (non flyable) B-17 that is sitting is some aviation museum.  Those are parts airplanes for the few that can still fly but they are not going to become aluminum cans. 

Edited by m-mman (see edit history)
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I re-read the owners description and he states the engine is not running because it has fuel issues and the owner has disassembled the top of the engine. He goes on to say that once he recovers from his back problem he going clean the fuel tank and get it running.  Maybe I missed something but by reading through this thread you all have condemned the engine and whittled this classic is a worthless parts car.

Edited by deac (see edit history)
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21 minutes ago, deac said:

I re-read the owners description and he states the engine is not running because it has fuel issues and the owner has disassembled the top of the engine. He goes on to say that once he recovers from his back problem he going clean the fuel tank and get it running.  Maybe I missed something but by reading through this through this thread you all have condemned the engine and whittled this classic is a worthless parts car.


If it isn’t running, assume the engine is stuck and price it accordingly. Just a fuel problem.......so in my shop, I could easily fix it in a week or less..........that’s full time......50 hours. Then 50 for ignition, 50 for the cooling system, ect, ect, ect........and that’s not out of pocket money either. These cars take up huge amounts of time.....how many people do you know who have time like that.......and the discipline to get in the garage and get it done? The car Steve has runs, turn key, and can be evaluated. The car that is the subject of this thread IS parts until it goes down the road and one can assess it. As far as value? Any one could be a great deal, or a underwater money pit......you don’t know till you have five hundred miles on them. 

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1 hour ago, deac said:

I re-read the owners description and he states the engine is not running because it has fuel issues and the owner has disassembled the top of the engine. He goes on to say that once he recovers from his back problem he going clean the fuel tank and get it running. 

 

And the seller is always telling the full truth and nothing but the truth. . . . ?

He has no reason to hide any pertinent facts . . . . ?

 

Example: You have a 1957 Chevrolet V-8 with "fuel issues" . . . do you 'disassemble the top' of the engine?? 

You buy a 1957 Chevrolet with the 'top of the engine disassembled'. Do you immediately recognize that the car just has a fuel issue and will run after the tank is cleaned. . . . ?

 

Fact: Big Classics ARE NOT simple or cheap to repair.  If they were, he would have already done it. 

Edited by m-mman (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, m-mman said:

 

 

Fact: Big Classics ARE NOT simple or cheap to repair.  If they were, he would have already done it. 


BINGO! 

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Thanks to Bloo, M-man, Edinmass, for your explanations, answers to my questions, and telling us of possible issues with a car like this. You get 👍👍 from me.

One more question. If the engine is bad, is there any swap (other than a 350 Chevy😁) that would be relatively simple and get the car back on the road?

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Okay guys, who of you have seen of called on this car ?  Who of you have actually seen this car ?  Certain people speculate that this is a car they have seen but there been no hard facts!

 

I am certainly not picking apart the knowledge of people have about this motor; in fact it's been very educational for me.  But give the seller and his car a break with the relentless piling on about things you suspect with no hard facts.  

 

I get what your saying about dishonest sellers and their descriptions.  I have been through that and it's frustrating, time consuming and costs money.  But no posts that I have read in this thread say; "I have talked to the seller and..." or "I just personally inspected this car and...."  But to condemn the thing without knowing for sure?  I don't think that's right!

Edited by deac (see edit history)
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I think what everyones saying is that its real easy to think a car like this "just needs X" when it is probly not that easy. If you read Matts thread about his Lincon someone who was supposed to be an expert told him his car just needed tires to be ready to tour and now hes looking at a full engine rebuild. Even if this engine is good inside it is a LOOOOONNNNGGGGG way from being ready to drive both in terms of money and time and effort. That isnt unfair to the seller or the car its just the facts.

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Over the years I have had two 1937 Lincoln K Judkins coach built 3-window sedans and a 1938 Factory sedan. Very rare and magnificent machines that cost alot of money new which is partly why they made so few. My 12V engines always ran hot. There is more wood in these cars than a small forest. Everything on these vehicles including the brass bumper guards is high quality. Due to the weight I needed to spend some serious man power turning the steering wheel at slow turns and with parking. I made the mistake of driving down a hill in Calabasas California with 4 kids in the back seat and a friend in the front passenger seat. I was  standing on the brakes with my 210 pound frame I could not stop. The car ran a stop sign. I rarely pray that profusely but I was praying hard for about 20 seconds that day. The cars at the bottom of the hill could not hear the horns as the horns in these vehicles are muffled. No accident but the female driver of a late model Toyota Highlander had a scare and a story to tell her husband when she got home.

 

Almost all these behemoths had a registered and licensed chauffeur. These vehicles get many admirers when driven. I have yet to see one ever modified into a "Hotrod" or restorod.

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11 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

If the engine is bad, is there any swap (other than a 350 Chevy😁) that would be relatively simple and get the car back on the road?

This is a good question George.

I know most prefer not to go that direction, but in this case, if it were the only other option rather than letting the car just sit and rot or spending some of the prohibitive numbers quoted here to rebuild the V-12, is there another engine that would bolt to this car's bell housing or would any type of engine swap mean replacing the complete transmission as well? (I'm also not talking about a small block Chevrolet engine).

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17 hours ago, George Smolinski said:

One more question. If the engine is bad, is there any swap (other than a 350 Chevy😁) that would be relatively simple and get the car back on the road?

Think of these like a 12 cylinder Ferrari or a Overhead cam Jaguar 6.  Both complex and expensive to repair. 

 

Now, if you have an exotic car with a bad engine, what other motor would fit up to their bell housing and "get it back on the road" (besides the 350 Chevy)?  

MAYBE. . . . there is something that could fit in there . . . . BUT when you are done (and it is not an EASY SWAP) who is going to buy your Ferrari or Jaguar XK 150 with a V-10 truck engine??  It might run, and it might move down the road, but it will ALWAYS be a "rare car with the wrong engine". 

On exotic cars and Full Classics, the engine is as much a part of the desirability of the car as the year and body style. There are common Jaguar sedans that are driving with SBCs under the hood. There are common sedan and limousine Rolls Royce that are driving with SBCs and serving as wedding cars. When these lives are finished how quickly do they sell? 

 

Ferraris and Jags and Full Classics were built with just one engine (the best one that could be engineered at the time) and there was never any reason for the engineers to allow for anything else to bolt in under the hood.  "Why offer an 'optional' engine, we are only going to offer "the best" engine with no choice".

 

Disclaimer: Yes Packard offered a 8 and a 12 and Cadillac had an 8, 12 & 16 but even these had chassis modifications that went beyond a motor swap.  This is why you hear about the Open BODY from an 8 cylinder car being swapped with the limousine body from the 12 or 16 cylinder FRAME. You do not hear about "Oh, I just slipped a 16 cylinder engine under the hood of my 8 cylinder roadster"  Or "I got my 16 cylinder roadster up and running with a good 8 I found". 

 

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8 hours ago, m-mman said:

MAYBE. . . . there is something that could fit in there . . . . BUT when you are done (and it is not an EASY SWAP) who is going to buy your Ferrari or Jaguar XK 150 with a V-10 truck engine??  It might run, and it might move down the road, but it will ALWAYS be a "rare car with the wrong engine". 

On exotic cars and Full Classics, the engine is as much a part of the desirability of the car as the year and body style. There are common Jaguar sedans that are driving with SBCs under the hood. There are common sedan and limousine Rolls Royce that are driving with SBCs and serving as wedding cars. When these lives are finished how quickly do they sell? 

I fully understand it would be a "rare" (define rare vs rare valuable. there is a difference) car with a wrong engine. What's the alternative if the engine is not repairable & there is no replacement available? Part it out? Seems a shame to do it to a nice car with bad engine.

From reading your replies to this thread, you seem fairly knowledgeable on these cars, but your thinking and views also seem very skewed to dollar amounts when a car is sold, or in your case maybe when it's flipped? Some would rather see a car like this back on the road even with an incorrect engine than not see it at all. I'm sure there are snobs & people only concerned amount dollar values of their "investments" in this hobby(a now laughable term), but there are others who would welcome a chance at seeing, studying, driving, riding, and even owning a car such as this EVEN WITH A WRONG ENGINE.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

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My first response would be to take a running engine from a rougher less salevage car.   But they probably doesn't exist.

 

In the event that the engine is shot,  I don' think I would look askance if it was repowered as long as it wasn't a crate engine.  

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I have a big block Chevy and a 700R4 sitting in my storage room and I have certainly contemplated sticking it into my Lincoln. I don't particularly want a Chevy powered Lincoln, but I did go far enough to measure and determine that the engine would physically fit in the Lincoln's engine bay. If I were seriously doing it, I would prefer a manual transmission, something with an overdrive. The Lincoln uses a torque tube so you'd also need to change the rear end, which means changing the rear brakes, and as long as you're changing the rear brakes, you should probably change the front brakes so they're all hydraulic. And if you're changing the front brakes you probably won't find hydraulic brakes that bolt on to the Lincoln beam axle so now you're upgrading the front suspension. Whatever axle and suspension you use, it's unlikely that the original wheels will fit any more, and now you're changing the steering and the steering column and the steering wheel and the gauges and, well, a simple engine swap turns into a real nightmare that steals any remaining soul that the car might have had. 

 

Something like this without a running original-style engine is a parts car just because it needs too many parts to be operational, regardless of what parts they may be.

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The only legitimate way to return this Lincoln K to the road is if someone still has a factory-bodied sedan or limousine which while still mechanically viable, has a body that is serious deteriorated, needing a full restoration which isn't warranted.    We've reach the point where Classics beset with 'sick' engines but no viable, functional replacement engines available become 'garage art sculptures' or parts cars.   It was inevitable.

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25 minutes ago, 58L-Y8 said:

The only legitimate way to return this Lincoln K to the road is if someone still has a factory-bodied sedan or limousine which while still mechanically viable, has a body that is serious deteriorated, needing a full restoration which isn't warranted.    We've reach the point where Classics beset with 'sick' engines but no viable, functional replacement engines available become 'garage art sculptures' or parts cars.   It was inevitable.

 

Steve,  agreed and definitely the first choice.   But the donor needs to be further down the pecking order and running.   Although this car is a catalog custom, it is still a seven passenger limo.   Not the most desirable.   So the pecking order below it on the K chassis is not a lot of cars.   Then you still need a running car that has a beat to death body and chassis.   Seems like threading the needle.

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