George Smolinski Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 (edited) Another cool photo I found. What’s it worth today? Edited July 21, 2021 by George Smolinski (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrData Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Priceless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, DrData said: Priceless Nope, not priceless........more than priceless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
md murray Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 48 minutes ago, George Smolinski said: Another cool photo I found What year is the ad from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 The car is in the Simeone Museum. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 I'll go along with priceless, very happy it has the best caretaker it could ask for. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 P.S. Fred is not concerned about it’s worth. Leaving great cars in perpetuity is his goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Smolinski Posted July 22, 2021 Author Share Posted July 22, 2021 1 hour ago, md murray said: What year is the ad from? Don't have a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 21 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: I'll go along with priceless, very happy it has the best caretaker it could ask for. Bob It’s interesting how these cars get valued. I’m fortunate to have driven most of the legendary foreign stuff in the 20’s and 30’s. European cars have a different head than the Americans. I haven’t driven spectrum series of Bugatti but the 57SC and the few others were underwhelming. I didn’t spin them up to redline but I sure pushed them...........did t give me the thrill of a Model J. The Alfa I got to pound on was a real big boy toy. It was very disappointing...........I still haven’t driven a Hispano V-12, probably will never pull that one off.........and a Sunbeam Twin Cam Six is on my want list, although I have never driven one. The Speed Six and Eight Liter Bentley are fantastic and hard to beat.....but rather heavy on the controls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 How many J’s won won 24 hrs at Le Mans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, edinmass said: It’s interesting how these cars get valued. I’m fortunate to have driven most of the legendary foreign stuff in the 20’s and 30’s. European cars have a different head than the Americans. I haven’t driven spectrum series of Bugatti but the 57SC and the few others were underwhelming. I didn’t spin them up to redline but I sure pushed them...........did t give me the thrill of a Model J. The Alfa I got to pound on was a real big boy toy. It was very disappointing...........I still haven’t driven a Hispano V-12, probably will never pull that one off.........and a Sunbeam Twin Cam Six is on my want list, although I have never driven one. The Speed Six and Eight Liter Bentley are fantastic and hard to beat.....but rather heavy on the controls. Do you guys that drive other peoples cars up to the edge ever worry about being the guy at the controls when it does blow up? I just never got into that drive them desire, but I'll look at them all day long. Bob Edited July 22, 2021 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 1 minute ago, 1937hd45 said: Do you guys that drive other peoples cars up the edge ever worry about being the guy at the controls when it does blow up? I just never got into that drive them desire, but I'll look at them all day long. Bob Bob, I typically baby everything including my own junk but especially someone else's junk. Something could go wrong, but the chances are tiny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: Do you guys that drive other peoples cars up the edge ever worry about being the guy at the controls when it does blow up? I just never got into that drive them desire, but I'll look at them all day long. Bob Cars are made to be driven. Pushing a car is just a normal part of a road test. Pounding on a car is not. People who drive cars like Duesenbergs want to know their car can perform, and do anything it’s asked of it, with safety and reliability. There are two kinds of Model J owners.......ones who never get the car over forty miles per hour, and the others who drive 85 for two hours straight. Until you test the fuel, ignition, and cooling systems at 100 percent........you can’t depend on the car. Most of the performance cars are designed to be pushed, and pushed hard. As long as you do normal maintenance it doesn’t hurt them. That said, I won’t start a Model J with factory rods even to idle it. Our recent barn find had factory rods in it, and we didn’t even road test it in the parking lot once we got it running. With new rods........you can’t hurt the car no matter how fast you spin it. Lugging a Duesenberg down low is no fun, and also not good for the car. On the last J tour, the boss came into a big sweeping turn too hot and wide.........and the world class car went onto the shoulder kicking up dirt.........it was lots of fun. I commented that I was glad it was him stripping the paint off the bottom of the fenders and not me. When I got home we washed the undercarriage and I pulled the wheels and repainted the underside of the fenders..........no harm, no foul. Sliding a JN through a corner in the Texas Hill County.............priceless! Edited July 22, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary_Ash Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 If you want to read about the guys that drove that car, especially Benoist, read the book "Grand Prix Saboteurs" to learn what they did during WWII. https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Prix-Saboteurs-Joe-Saward/dp/0955486807 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 I lost count of the cars I'd roll around on a jack rather than get in and move them over one space in a shop. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Robert Benoist in one of those disappointing Bugatti. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAKerry Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 I would up the price and offer $7900! Simeone is one of my favorite places for a weekend visit. This is just one of many beautiful, priceless automobiles there. As far as driving someone else car.... Heck, I dont even like to borrow someone elses tools. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walt G Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 I had decades ago the opportunity to have conversations with both Sterling Moss and Rene Dreyfus. Mr. Moss only once but Rene more often. Both were adamant that they never babied the cars they drove when the cars were new . SM reported that in a great article back in the 1970s in MotorSport magazine - he did not "save" a car in a race to pace it to endure the whole race to finish; drove it flat out and if it broke and he didn't finish so be it. Told me the same thing in person at the NY restaurant Mama Leone's before a International Motor Press Association luncheon he attended . He walked in and over to the bar in the corner where I was standing and we struck up a conversation that lasted about 20-30 minutes or more before anyone else in the room realized he was there. Talking the whole time about vintage race cars that he had recently had the opportunity to "try out". He was a great down to earth guy. Rene and Maurice Dreyrfus were friends and I sat at their table decades ago at the AACA annual meeting when Rene's book won an award after it was published in the 1970s. Also fine down to earth gentleman. Walt 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim65 Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Looking at that wonderful Bugatti, reminded me , I saw an earlier Bugatti in the cyprus museum , the museum was actually closed and car was just parked up so didn’t have any info with it . I thought it must be 20s , but would be interested to know more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Pilgrim65 said: Looking at that wonderful Bugatti, reminded me , I saw an earlier Bugatti in the cyprus museum , the museum was actually closed and car was just parked up so didn’t have any info with it . I thought it must be 20s , but would be interested to know more That is a Volkswagen floorpan with a fiberglass two passenger body, someone painted it blue. The 19 inch wheels are from a 1930-31 Model A Ford. Bob Edited July 22, 2021 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Our shop motto......"Drive it like you stole it". Keeps them running the way they should. Pushing a J through the gears at 85 percent of capicity is safe, and more fun than you can imagine. Feeling three tons of iron pulling through 3200 rpm and hitting the century mark on the speedo is a feeling every car guy should experience one time in his life. Tony Costa still talks about our ride around Watkins Glen at 90 mph in a 1932 Pierce.............so much so, he bought the car from me two years later. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) I think it is hard for any of the very high price tag, " special " cars from this era to live up to their current price tags . Sorry Ed, even a Model J. They were all { except the J, and even then dirt roads were the norm out side of larger, built up areas } essentially " dirt track " cars . And I doubt anyone alive today would push one to 90% of its capability on dirt, on the typical road courses of the day. Think Targa Florio in the 1930's. Mix of a little pavement and a lot of dirt / gravel over very challenging terrain. No safety barriers at all and many steep drop offs if you get really out of shape. People today do things like Pikes peak, and numerous rally events in similar conditions , but with 5 point harness's , fuel cells, fire suits, Hans devices , and full cages. People who pushed these cars to the limit on the courses of the day were by todays standards "taking insane risks". There is really no comparison to any sort of vintage motoring in todays world. Edited July 22, 2021 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) Basically the value is strictly a supply and demand issue............ what is anything worth? It's a conversation we have often. It's only worth what you can get for it in 24 hours......the "wish" or "I think it's worth" don't mean much. That said, I don't like cars because of their value.......I like them for the history, engineering, and joy they give going down the road. I have a Model T and parked next to my V-12 Pierce. Others come and go, currently I'm on a White Motor Car kick.........how long will it last......until I find something that interests me more. If I make or lose money on a car isn't the reason I bought it. I bought it to drive and enjoy it. Edited July 22, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 I have never really pushed another person's car. And, like TAKerry, don't drive other people's cars very much. My cars? I do like to DRIVE! My 1915 Studebaker six would do well over 55 mph, I often drove it between 50 and 55. The 1925 Studebaker two door coach I also often drove over 50. Model T speedsters? While many in the hobby look down upon them, I always considered them to be an important part of model T and automotive history, so long as they are authentically restored (not modern tributes with 1950s details). I have had five of them running and driven often. I particularly enjoy driving the open wheel speedsters! One of them I had for several years? I got up to about 80mph on a 55 mph backroads highway for a couple miles. I slowed down because I didn't want an expensive ticket. That car and two others I drove into the tens of thousands of miles on freeways and highways at nearly 70mph! Crazy? Perhaps. But the thrill at 70 in an open wheel minimalist body two-wheel brake model T Ford is wonderful! I think that if someone I knew offered to have me drive their model J 'at speed'? I think I would have to try it. Provided it was very well insured. And under appropriate road conditions. I still don't like getting tickets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Wondering what a 5-6 thousand pound car has to do with a Bugatti? Any make of car that has no racing history should never be considered in the same league. Suppose if you have a match race with a Royale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivan Saxton Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 20 hours ago, edinmass said: It’s interesting how these cars get valued. I’m fortunate to have driven most of the legendary foreign stuff in the 20’s and 30’s. European cars have a different head than the Americans. I haven’t driven spectrum series of Bugatti but the 57SC and the few others were underwhelming. I didn’t spin them up to redline but I sure pushed them...........did t give me the thrill of a Model J. The Alfa I got to pound on was a real big boy toy. It was very disappointing...........I still haven’t driven a Hispano V-12, probably will never pull that one off.........and a Sunbeam Twin Cam Six is on my want list, although I have never driven one. The Speed Six and Eight Liter Bentley are fantastic and hard to beat.....but rather heavy on the controls. Jack Nelson, who only left us several years ago, had 3, 4 1/2, and 6 litre Bentley cars. I started to gather parts to hopefully get a 3 litre; as I had always admired. Jack strongly advised me to look for a 4 1/2, as they were the most desireable. I had some useful major parts for a 3 litre, when a friend obtained an incomplete project which needed what I had. Bill paid for an incomplete Stutz DV32 engine. which Paul Freehill offered to me. Paul told me that no-one was much interested in it because they could not understand the numbers, so parts were sold off it; including five genuine steel conrods to complete a set for another engine. When I got the rest I soon found that the solution to the riddle was in the Stutz chapter of John Bentley's 1950s book "Great American Automobiles". He quoted company information that a small number of DV32s were extensively run on the Speedway, and "the mountains and deserts of Southern USA. The engine block is BB pattern, with casting date June 27 1928, cored and bored for 3 and three eights pistons; and with the word "SPECIAL" cast on the left side , upside down. The engine number is DV 30004. This is earlier than any known M series engine. It is likely that there were around half a dozen of these prototype engines. All I can find out is that this one came from New Orleans; so you may be geographically well located to search for any other survivors, Ed. The crankshaft main bearing caps are massively strong. It is clear that Stutz knew their engines had weakness in the centre main bearing cap. Geoff Ringrose used his restored BB series in Sydney for probably over 40 years. He told me he was on a weekend run in the car when the engine developed a knock He switched it off, and had it taken home on a tilt-tray. When Geoff dropped the sump off, he found that the centre main bearing cap was broken from front to back. This is likely what happened to the engine of the Black Hawk in the "Match Race" at Indianapolis, But they probably felt they had to keep going. It is likely that the super-strong main bearing caps were the design work of Frank Lockhart,, who sadly did not survive to complete and use the improved design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) Back in 1992, I went with a friend to buy a Pierce Arrow in Buffalo Ny. It didn’t work out, but in the garage on the way home was a strange Stutz. Took one look at it and passed.........my friend stepped up and pulled the trigger for what I thought was way too much money. I can’t disclose the current owner. Anyway, it was said when I looked at it it was a “special early” DV-32........yea, right, I just fell off the turnip wagon. Turns out it was real, it was early, and it was a factory experimental engine. Just goes to show how smart I was. Like any good car, the more we dug into it, the better it got. It had racing history over the pond..........the car quietly sleeps in a small shop, seldom if ever seen. I expect in the next fifteen years it will be looking for a new home. The engine is a early DV from 1928. Special chassis with some strange things on it. Any further comment would give it away. I never followed up on any additional info he found out about the car........I didn’t want to have people playing 10,000 questions. My one regret is I didn’t ever take it for a spin. Now I won’t have the chance to. But, when the cars comes out and the story is written.......I can say I was there........trying to talk him out of buying some nightmare assemblage of floor sweepings..........and it was all real. Please! No comments or guesses on the car. Thanks. Edited July 22, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Bearing caps on Stutz cars can and do fail from the AA to the DV-32. I have seen it several times. It’s due to crankshaft whip, and an engine block that isn’t stiff enough. It was solved, and if you build specials today, the “in” crowd can get you set up correctly to prevent the failure.......but it’s EXPENSIVE. As far as the W O Bentley’s, I am a BIG fan. Much better than those little toy Bugatti’s and Alfa’s. I prefer a Speed Six all day long over the 4 1/2 or the blowers. I’m just into big heavy things that go fast and handle like a dump truck spilling its load. There are a handful of interesting Stutz Specials from new, and a bunch of new ones made from floor sweepings that are seldom seen today. Several prominent owners put them on tracks around the US and Europe. I wish I could comment more on running the big cars, but it would only upset people, so the stories will have to wait till they can be told when no one is around to bitch about them. I will post the videos then also. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 My favorite Stutz Special. Currently back on the front burner.........and since we built the engine, we know it’s safe to pound on it. Which, I plan to do, on the track. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 (edited) One last comment......after spending the last few weeks deep into a Stearns Knight eight, it is now on my “want to own one” list. I don’t plan on hot dogging the current one, or any future one. I’ll think about.......but I won’t do it! PS- We WILL do a speed run. They promised 100 mph when new. We shall know before the summer is out. And this time, we can take video as it happens. It will be interesting to see the owners response after he reads this. 🤔 Edited July 22, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 Your interest in Bentley makes sense. Bugatti once stated they were the fastest trucks. Must have an affinity for truck inspired vehicles 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 Topic 1936 Bugatti57S . ?????? You’re great at posting. I not here to bitch. Just start your own topic. High, wide and heavy cars I have worked on/ and drove to fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 (edited) Sorry, Ivan got onto Stutz and Bentley......and I am enthusiastic on both those subjects! Edited July 23, 2021 by edinmass (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim65 Posted July 23, 2021 Share Posted July 23, 2021 22 hours ago, 1937hd45 said: That is a Volkswagen floorpan with a fiberglass two passenger body, someone painted it blue. The 19 inch wheels are from a 1930-31 Model A Ford. Bob That’s amazing , couldn’t get nearer than photo , ( shouldn’t be there then) thanks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 On 7/23/2021 at 8:20 AM, Pilgrim65 said: That is a Volkswagen floorpan with a fiberglass two passenger body, Ha !! I bought one of those at a garage sale several years ago for cheap. Gas tank was quite rusty, I replaced it with a boat tank. A cheap carburetor and a GOOOD profit. By the way, I did hate that thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 2 hours ago, JACK M said: Ha !! I bought one of those at a garage sale several years ago for cheap. Gas tank was quite rusty, I replaced it with a boat tank. A cheap carburetor and a GOOOD profit. By the way, I did hate that thing. Good for you, glad you moved along quickly with little investment. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 On 7/21/2021 at 9:03 PM, George K said: How many J’s won won 24 hrs at Le Mans? Just the one Duesenberg in 1921. Jimmy Murphy at the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George K Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 Simeone has one of those also. They have nothing to do with J’s. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said: Just the one Duesenberg in 1921. Jimmy Murphy at the wheel. Just to keep the Historical Record straight the the FIRST 24 hours of Le Mans was run in 1923......................Jimmy Murphy won the 1921 French Grand Prix in a Duesenberg. Bob Edited July 28, 2021 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted July 28, 2021 Share Posted July 28, 2021 17 hours ago, George K said: They have nothing to do with J’s. I'm surprised the Duesenberg guys let this pass. But if you say the Duesenbergs who made the race cars had nothing to do with the J's so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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