1903 Cleveland Roadster project

[Gary_Ash]

The program I am using is TurboCAD Pro Platinum, which I bought for my consulting work (and maybe just a little for building the Indy car).  It's very capable, has a steep learning curve, and is more CAD software than most people need.  The same company offers DesignCAD 3D Max for $99.99, will do most everything any car guy wants.  Ed, I'm trying to stay retired, don't really want to get into the business of creating CAD files and supervising fabrication of parts for others.  However, I do enjoy taking on the odd impossible task just for fun.  I thought some about how to 3D print the Cleveland pattern on the cheap, would have to divide the part into a top third, a middle third, and then split the bottom third in two to fit the pieces on the $200 printer I have, then glue the pieces together.  Each of the four parts would take about 2 days to print. 

 

Harm, I'm pleasantly surprised that my estimate of the weight was within about 10%, since I didn't know actual wall thicknesses and made no allowance for the water cooling core at the top of the cylinder. 

 

I didn't put any draft or machining allowance into the 3D model.  Each machined surface needs to be 0.060" to 0.125" thicker to allow a fairly deep first cut through the "skin" of the casting, then a few more fine cuts to get good smooth surfaces.  We'd have to ask Joe Puleo about the strategy for the machining, but it would take a tall mill to do it.  I think I'd grab the top of the cylinder in a 3-jaw or 4-jaw chuck with the block upside down to center things up, then mill the bottom flange flat and drill the holes in the flange.  The cylinder can be bored in the same setup or the part could be moved to a large lathe.  The set-up for cutting the crankshaft eludes me a little, but maybe the bottom of the crankcase needs to be bolted on so both halves get bored together.  I'm not sure how to grab the block for that operation so that the crankshaft winds up properly perpendicular to the block.  The top surface and the rest of the holes in the sides can be machined easily once the bottom flange is done.  The factory would have made jigs for holding the rough castings for these operations.

 

  

[JV Puleo]

In looking at this I have to say I like Terry's idea of making a "half" pattern in wood. 3D printing would be more useful for the cores. I have some figures from PM Heldt regarding wall thicknesses and I'd use those. He was writing c.1908-09. The biggest problem I see is getting what I call the "register" edge (having spent most of my life in the printing industry I tend to use printing term). In this case I think it should be the bottom edge. If machined flat (and I'm not sure how I would do that) everything else could be done in relation to that surface. I would probably leave about .100 or .125 extra material on the machined surfaces. I know that is more than they would have done originally but we have to consider making errors or having difficulties they would not have had.

What provides the bottom half of the bearing journals? That should be machined flat as well and the journals bored in one piece. I am almost certain that several holding fixtures would have to be made...at least that's what my limited experience dictates.

[Terry Harper]

If you look closely at the photo of the bottom side (first photo) you can see what looks like vestiges of the part line from the cope & drag.

Either that or its just marks from wear and tear over the years Hard to tell from the photo.

 

Harm, looking at the chassis its lookes amazing to see it resting on those beutiful wheels. Simply wonderful workmanship.

[alsfarms]

This forum is nice to get the creative juices flowing for sure.  To bad we all live in so many far away places.  If we could convene at a central place and solve/resolve all these little problems, the world and our hobby would be a better place.  I would like to be able to mess with a good cad Drafting program but I am not sure I am willing to invest the time needed for the "steep" learning curve.

Al

[Ben Popadak]

The 1903 Cleveland engine casting is extremely close to that of many other circa 1903 one cylinder automobile engines.  From across a room you would have a hard time telling an Oldsmobile casting, from a Rambler casting, from a Northern casting.  In the Curved Dash Oldsmobile club there has been new main engine castings offered for sale.  I was wondering just how close the Cleveland is to the CDO.  Also maybe a raw/unmachined, CDO engine casting would be "close enough" and allow you some luxuries of small changes that more closely matched the Cleveland engine.  

[Gary_Ash]

It's amazing how much the Olds engine resembles the Cleveland engine.  It can't be an accident.

See this older post:  

 

 

[JV Puleo]

Hmmm... the Olds engines were made by Leland & Falconer. Is it possible that the Cleveland engines were made there also? That would be very much in keeping with the period. Of course, L&F later turned into Cadillac but in the very early days they were builders of engines for anyone who wanted to buy them.

[George Albright]

Sold at Hershey 8 is years ago. Don’t remember who bought it. Thanks George Albright 

[edinmass]

Leland  & Falconer were a machine shop that made parts for by bicycles, motorcycles, cars, generators, and other assorted machines items including firearms. Henry Ford is rumored to have worked there for less than a week as a young boy.

Edited June 25, 2020 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Sloth]

On 6/24/2020 at 11:54 PM, JV Puleo said:

Hmmm... the Olds engines were made by Leland & Falconer. Is it possible that the Cleveland engines were made there also? That would be very much in keeping with the period. Of course, L&F later turned into Cadillac but in the very early days they were builders of engines for anyone who wanted to buy them.

Hello Joe,

According to the literature, Cleveland made the engines themselves. It seems that they had the capabilities to do so, although I have my doubts.... As Ben stated in an earlier post, the Oldsmobile engine and the Cleveland engine look very much the same. Interesting subject to explore further, I have a few friends who own Curved Dashes. As soon as the Corona virus crisis is more or less gone, I will visit them and take pictures and measurements of the engine block. But my first preference is repairing the original Cleveland engine.

Regards,

Harm

Edited June 26, 2020 by Sloth (see edit history)

[Sloth]

On 6/24/2020 at 2:34 AM, Terry Harper said:

If you look closely at the photo of the bottom side (first photo) you can see what looks like vestiges of the part line from the cope & drag.

Either that or its just marks from wear and tear over the years Hard to tell from the photo.

 

Harm, looking at the chassis its lookes amazing to see it resting on those beutiful wheels. Simply wonderful workmanship.

Hello Terry,

You are right, that are the vestiges of a part line. I will try to make a more detailed picture, the line is clearly visible at the engine in front of me, but does not show clearly on a picture.

Thank you for your kind words about the chassis. Took much time to get it that far 😁.

Regards,

Harm

[JV Puleo]

Yes...I agree that if the Cleveland engine can be repaired it should be repaired. This business of making a new case should be the last resort. As far as the claim that the made them themselves is concerned, I would take that with a considerable grain of salt. It is the sort of thing practically all of the said and  practically none of them did, especially small manufacturers. Mitchell said it in their advertising but I know (because I've found the markings) that they didn't make the springs...and I seriously doubt they made many other parts. For one thing, it just isn't good business even if it makes good advertising. I don't think that Ford advertised that his mechanical parts were made by the Dodge Brothers or that Oldsmobile advertised that Leland & Falconer made the engines...those two engines are so similar that it would be an act of G-d if they did not share a similar background.

[George Albright]

Detroit is Detroit because in 1900 on companies spring up to make the various nuts bolts and parts the fledgling companies needed to assemble a car. A O Smith started making car frames in 1905. Etc etc 

[Sloth]

This week no progress at the Cleveland, instead we were very busy with  outdoor tasks. After 60 years of service the concrete paving stones disintegrated slowly, so we decided to have the paving stones replaced by new ones. At long last, the contractor called Monday morning to announce that he would start Thursday morning 02 July. Lo and behold, at the promised date they showed up 😃. Delayed by 8 weeks because of the Corona crisis and the non availability of paving stones, last week they resumed business. They brought with them some heavy equipment. They made short work by removing 4500 square feet of old pavers. Anna and I are happy now! Also they are putting in some extra water drains. Tuesday very early, a large truck delivered the first batch of the new pavers, production date 26 of June.... Yesterday day the second truck arrived with the remaining batch. So, Anna and I did a lot of preparation work the the days before the contractor came, removing potted plants (large and heavy), removing tables and seats and so on. As we are not 20 anymore, at the moment we are a bit tired (very much that is).

Some pictures:

 

Part of the drive way, old pavers gone, new ones at the side. We need 36 of those pallets with pavers.

 

Square between farmhouse and shop

 

Square between the shops

 

The contractor needs 2 weeks, to complete all activities. I hope, I can find some time to continue restoring the Cleveland.

Regards,

Harm

[alsfarms]

Nice improvements for sure!  We all get involved with our surroundings and it is good that we do....to keep our wives happy.  I will be anxious to see the project completed.  Are your pavers the same color as what you took out?  What is the compaction process that goes under the pavers to keep them nice and flat over time and driving on them?  I have considered pavers but so have have not committed to install them.  On another subject, I followed your lead and bought a used Beugler striping gizmo and now plan to do my own striping. 

Al

[Sloth]

5 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Nice improvements for sure!  We all get involved with our surroundings and it is good that we do....to keep our wives happy.  I will be anxious to see the project completed.  Are your pavers the same color as what you took out?  What is the compaction process that goes under the pavers to keep them nice and flat over time and driving on them?  I have considered pavers but so have have not committed to install them.  On another subject, I followed your lead and bought a used Beugler striping gizmo and now plan to do my own striping. 

Al

Hello Al,

No, they are not the same color. We have selected the plain gray (concrete gray), the existing reddish/pink color pavers, are not available at this moment. The contractor expected a "few" month delivery time, this did not sound good to me..... So, at the end we had to chose the yellow, black or grey ones, we selected the grey pavers. Another point with the colored pavers is color fading, after a year or two, the colors start to fade and become dull, and after ten years the pavers are all grayish.

Compaction: as most of the driveway is more than a 100 years old, the sand below the pavers compacted through the years as a rock hard layer of 2 feet thickness. Furthermore, the sand they used a 100 years ago (yellow/red color) contains loam. The contractor fills the holes etc, with the same kind of sand, and after leveling the driveway, they will put on top a few inches of paving sand (sand that does not contain  loam or clay). After some months the pavers are settled, and we can use it without a problem.

Good to read about buying the Beugler, it will help a lot with the stripping.

Regards,

Harm

Edited July 4, 2020 by Sloth (see edit history)

[alsfarms]

Hello Harm,

Do you have any new pictures of your new pavers process?  You are probably awful busy on this project to even think about the Cleveland.  This season is hard for me to get much time to invest in my hobby interests also.

Al

[Sloth]

3 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Do you have any new pictures of your new pavers process?  You are probably awful busy on this project to even think about the Cleveland.  This season is hard for me to get much time to invest in my hobby interests also.

Al

Hello Al,

You are right, still busy with the paving project.... Last week we had not much luck with the weather, occasional heavy showers. But last Thursday it rained heavily, the whole day long. So the contractor people came at 8:00 hr and went home at 10:00 hr. Friday the driveway was soaking wet, so not much done. Saturday nice and dry, the contractor came with extra people to finish the job. Not so, he miscalculated the number of pavers needed 😠, they were not amused to say the least. Now we are waiting for pavers again. After the contractor finish the paving, Anna and I have to do a lot of garden work. Removing excess soil, leveling the garden to the new driveway height etc. I am not looking forward to it...🙄.

I must admit that at the moment, I have not the peace of mind to do anything with the Cleveland. I wanted to start with the repair of the engine, but postponed it to a later date.

Regards,

Harm

[alsfarms]

Hello Harm,

I am checking in to see how you are doing and if your paving project is complete.  Just a note for you, I have had my first home grown tomato for this season.  It never ceases to amaze me how much more flavor a home grown tomato has as compared to a store bought tomato!  Is the Cleveland still in the background or have you chipped away at the next planned step?  I did pick up a nice Warner 8 day brass clock for the Locomobile, but I need to locate a good clock shop to remove the face and restore it to match the  Warner autometer.  I am very busy this time of year!  I need to spray the orchard tomorrow, the do some work with the bush hog and get ready for hay baling the day after tomorrow.  (Hay is all cut and drying for a few days).  Share an update....

Regards,

Al

[Sloth]

16 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

I am checking in to see how you are doing and if your paving project is complete.  Just a note for you, I have had my first home grown tomato for this season.  It never ceases to amaze me how much more flavor a home grown tomato has as compared to a store bought tomato!  Is the Cleveland still in the background or have you chipped away at the next planned step?  I did pick up a nice Warner 8 day brass clock for the Locomobile, but I need to locate a good clock shop to remove the face and restore it to match the  Warner autometer.  I am very busy this time of year!  I need to spray the orchard tomorrow, the do some work with the bush hog and get ready for hay baling the day after tomorrow.  (Hay is all cut and drying for a few days).  Share an update....

Regards,

Al

Hello Al,

Good for you, picking up a Warner clock. It certainly a very nice addition for the Locomobile.

Yes, home grown fruit and vegetables usually taste way better than bought at the store. At the moment we are till our armpits in zucchinis... Eggplant is coming. And that's one of the problems growing your own vegetables, it starts early with all the lettuce at the same moment ready for consumption, same for the green beans and so on.  Its becoming a very good year for prunes, apples and pears. Our walnut tree is full of walnuts, and because of that, old people in our neighborhood (hear me..really old people that is) say we must prepare for a harsh and cold winter. But, last year the same lot predicted, that we should prepare for the meanest winter of the century. Well, at the end we had not a single day with substantial frost, on the contrary, it became one of the warmest winters in history. So much for long term predictions based on nuts 😆, length of fur of our cats and so on...

At last, the paving is complete. We are now busy with leveling the garden edges to the same height as the new pavement. At the moment Anna and I are paving cobble stones around the farmhouse just 3 feet wide, measured from the walls. (Those cobble stones are small boulders which where used in the past for paving roads -very uncomfortable type of paving!).  Its quite a puzzle to lay the boulders level and flat, so on the end your are not breaking your neck stumbling over them. You can rightfully ask me, why are you using these boulders, well tradition! Furthermore, they are very useful for spreading the water which falls from the thatched roof. When using flat pavers, the water always splashes in the same direction against the underside of the bricks of the walls,  After some years the brick are starting to deteriorate. When using cobble stones, because they are very uneven and round(ish), they break the water into small droplets, leaving the walls unharmed. Some 25 years ago, most farms used this type of cheap pavement (now a days very expensive). But I must say I am very happy with the result of the paving project. Just some serious hedge cutting is left (250 yards two row Hornbeam) which is getting a bit out of control..... waiting for some dry weather. During the month of July  it rained a lot, not much wind but a lot of rain and moderate temperatures. All the farmers in the neighborhood seemed happy 😁, a good harvest this year.

Sorry to say, but the Cleveland is a bit on the background 😥. I hope to continue with the Cleveland project during the coming weeks.... In between, I ordered and received all the stuff needed for stitching the engine. Looking forward to start with it.

Regards,

Harm

Edited July 28, 2020 by Sloth (see edit history)

[Mike Macartney]

Harm, I found your information on the cobble stones very interesting and something I had not thought about before. It is amazing what you can learn about on this AACA forum. Mike

[trimacar]

On 7/4/2020 at 10:33 AM, alsfarms said:

Nice improvements for sure!  We all get involved with our surroundings and it is good that we do....to keep our wives happy.  I will be anxious to see the project completed.  Are your pavers the same color as what you took out?  What is the compaction process that goes under the pavers to keep them nice and flat over time and driving on them?  I have considered pavers but so have have not committed to install them.  On another subject, I followed your lead and bought a used Beugler striping gizmo and now plan to do my own striping. 

Al

I found that, while the Beugler will make a stripe, it’s not the same as a brush applied stripe.  It’s much too uniform, which is not an all bad thing.  My 31 Chevy has Beugler applied stripes and it almost looks like tape....it was striped in 1965, by the way....

[alsfarms]

Dave,  I smile at the thought of me using a brush to apply striping.  The use of a brush, may be more actually authentic, but those guys were trained craftsmen.  I am just a hobbyist that wants a method to apply striping that I can handle, hence the Beugler gizmo.  I don't even think I could  get a straight line with a brush.  Beugler, here we come!  Your 1931 Chevy now has antique applied stripes....good for you.  Harm, why did you choose a Beugler instead of a steady hand and horsehair paint brush?     🙂

Regards,

Alan

 

[Sloth]

16 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Dave,  I smile at the thought of me using a brush to apply striping.  The use of a brush, may be more actually authentic, but those guys were trained craftsmen.  I am just a hobbyist that wants a method to apply striping that I can handle, hence the Beugler gizmo.  I don't even think I could  get a straight line with a brush.  Beugler, here we come!  Your 1931 Chevy now has antique applied stripes....good for you.  Harm, why did you choose a Beugler instead of a steady hand and horsehair paint brush?     🙂

Regards,

Alan

 

Alan, me lacks a steady hand... 😄.

Regards,

Harm

[alsfarms]

Now I really smile!  You and I both want results and "something" that that can help us get the finished product without any additional foul words along the way.  My wife has a very steady hand but I think it wiser to not go there with my wife.  I prefer peace at home!

Regards,

Al

[MochetVelo]

I used 3M striping tape on my 1913 Metz. It's a thin plastic tape that has 1/16" sections that pull off so you end up with, essentially, a stencil to apply your paint. I like it because you can reposition the lines before you actually apply paint. The trick is to pull off the tape as soon as you put on the paint so the edge isn't too sharp.

 

Phil

[trimacar]

I think I've told this story before.  I wanted a real pinstripe on my Pierce, had a fellow show up, started taping the car and he was just going to brush paint between two taped edges.  He was shown the door.

 

Next guy was an artist from Roanoke, Virginia.  Showed up, took a while analyzing the car and the desired results (hours, as pinstripers do), then got out about a 10,000 watt light on a stand and a loupe for his eye.  He told me he was blind in one eye and had a little trouble seeing out the other.  Sheesh, a near blind pinstriper!  But he started, and even though it was hours of getting ready, had the car done in probably 30 minutes.  A not quite perfect pinstripe job, as one by hand should be, he did a great job...hard to judge size from pictures but its a fairly narrow stripe, as it should be...

[Jeff Perkins / Mn]

I even had a tough time with the Beugler wheel......didn’t do it. 
I had a similar experience as David......a 22 yr old traditional rodder offered to stripe my car freehand. He studied my 1929 Ford for 1/2 hr. then proceeded to stripe the car in about 10 minutes. He did a wonderful job and charged me $40! I gave him a $20 tip.

I still have my brushes if anyone want to give striping a try.

Edited July 30, 2020 by Jeff Perkins / Mn (see edit history)

[trimacar]

11 hours ago, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

I even had a tough time with the Beugler wheel......didn’t do it. 
I had a similar experience as David......a 22 yr old traditional rodder offered to stripe my car freehand. He studied my 1929 Ford for 1/2 hr. then proceeded to stripe the car in about 10 minutes. He did a wonderful job and charged me $40! I gave him a $20 tip.

I still have my brushes if anyone want to give striping a try.

 

That’s a nice stripe...he knew what he was doing...a lot of newer pinstripes want to lay down a real wide stripe, originally most cars that were striped had a thinner, more subtle, stripe.  I had the fellow who did my car lay down sample stripes until we agreed on width....

[alsfarms]

You fellows are lucky to live in areas where a diverse skill can be found.  Not so much in the rural area I live in.  I guess I will need to practice, with the Beugler, and give it a go when the time comes for striping.  Harm, how much striping will you apply to the body of the Cleveland and the hood?

Al

[Sloth]

4 hours ago, alsfarms said:

You fellows are lucky to live in areas where a diverse skill can be found.  Not so much in the rural area I live in.  I guess I will need to practice, with the Beugler, and give it a go when the time comes for striping.  Harm, how much striping will you apply to the body of the Cleveland and the hood?

Al

Hello Al,

At the moment I think, just a stripe under the moldings, chassis green stripe on red body. Stripes on the hood I am not sure where to apply stripes.

Regards,

Harm

[alsfarms]

Hello Harm,

Do you have any "summer" apples or the more typical late season apples?  We are just starting to pick onions ready for the  kitchen.  I am sure curious to learn of your experience with stitching the crack in your block.

Regards,

Alan

[Sloth]

Hello, after a very busy period of work at the farm and the garden, I expect/hope to have more time for continuing the restoration of the Cleveland. Below some pictures of the new pavement and a some of the cobble stone pavement.

 

Driveway between shops and farm

 

Completed driveway

 

Small part of cobble stone pavement

 

Cobble stones detail

 

Furthermore, in between, I rebuild Anna's pottery kiln, the old one was to small 😉 . We bought a larger secondhand kiln, but that one was like a 80 year old car out of a muddy  field. So, some rebuilding activities where needed. Replaced some heat resistant bricks, new steel frame  etc. Took 2 weeks of hard work to finish the thing. Today we are painting it. But as this kiln needs 11 KW, I have to lay a new and heavier power cable, sigh ☹️.

 

Kiln inside

 

As the shop is now a big mess, cleaning is in order. But at the moment a heat wave is building up, yesterday temperature 85 F. The weather forecast, predicts temperatures in the region of 95 F and higher. They also predict that this heatwave will continue at least till the last week of august. But because of these temperatures, Anna and I only work during the morning when it is still relatively cool. Afternoon and evening are spent at (in)  the swimming pool.

 

Cleveland activities: not so much to report. Because of the nice weather, I hope to paint all the radiator parts.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

Edited August 7, 2020 by Sloth (see edit history)

[Sloth]

On 8/1/2020 at 9:55 PM, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Do you have any "summer" apples or the more typical late season apples?  We are just starting to pick onions ready for the  kitchen.  I am sure curious to learn of your experience with stitching the crack in your block.

Regards,

Alan

Hello Al,

Mostly late season apples and pears, the pear trees are full of pears. Looks like we will have a very good year for pears, further we had lots of prunes. This year the zucchinis harvest is very good, 3 plants and more than 30 zucchinis of a very nice quality. We use them for spaghetti with meatballs and rice with several kinds of spicy curries (medium and hot). 

 

Stitching the crack in the engine is a bit on the back burner. At the moment we are "enjoying" a heat wave, way to hot to do anything in the shop. But anyhow, when I start with the stitching, I must be sure not to be interrupted by small chores....😉.

Regards,

Harm

[trimacar]

How’s your spaghetti harvest this year?  Our trees aren’t producing strands like they used to, guess they’re getting old....

 

  

[AHa]

good job!

Edited August 9, 2020 by AHa (see edit history)

[Sloth]

46 minutes ago, AHa said:

good job!

I liked your earlier comment🤣

[AHa]

Yea but I could get into all kinds of trouble so I thought better just delete it.

[alsfarms]

Your pavers have made a very tidy look to your nice country estate!  Good for you and your taste in details!  We just finished our first home-made Apple Betty of the year with fresh picked Roman Beauty apples from the orchard.  The apples are divine and so was the Betty!  It won't be long until fall and cooler weather is on us and we can then move back into the shop for restoration work!

Al

[Sloth]

10 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Your pavers have made a very tidy look to your nice country estate!  Good for you and your taste in details!  We just finished our first home-made Apple Betty of the year with fresh picked Roman Beauty apples from the orchard.  The apples are divine and so was the Betty!  It won't be long until fall and cooler weather is on us and we can then move back into the shop for restoration work!

Al

Hello Al,

Thank you for your kind words. Didn't know what an Apple-Betty is. Looked up the recipe for Apple-Betty. As we have a lot of apples an Apple Betty is foreseen in the very near future😄.

At the moment we are still suffering from a heatwave. Weather forecast told us, this heatwave will continue  till the end of next week. So Anna and I doing not much, the temperature in the shop is about 90F.  Outside temperature 96F, and no cool breeze at all. Saturday we started cleaning the shop. Started early this morning 6:00 o'clock😪 ,  this morning we brought a lot of scrap iron to an old iron merchant. Didn't get much money for it, old iron is not very valuable these days.

Regards,

Harm