Sloth

1903 Cleveland Roadster project

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2 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

Thanks Al, I have now replied to your PM. I had forgotten all about using the PM - sorry Harm.

Hello Mike,

No problem.

Regards,

Harm

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Posted (edited)

As promised, hereby step by step, how I made the side boards of the tonneau. The process  worked for me, but I am not responsible for etc etc., and can not held liable for etc.etc.,  nor can held liable any member of my household, nor can held liable my shop cats....😁

I used the designation Mold, but maybe it should be named Rig or Die, or??

 

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Side boards, made of 1" plywood

 

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Clamping board number 1, fixed with sturdy screws on the side boards

 

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Side view of above picture

 

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Other clamping boards fixed on the side boards (I used scrap 1" plywood I had lying around))

 

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Put some battens on the sides, made of 1" plywood  used later on for clamping and screwing the upper side of the rig.

 

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Detail of same as above picture

 

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Put on first layer of flexible plywood (this is just for show I used a piece of scrap plywood)

 

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Put on the glue evenly, I used a 5" putty knife for spreading the glue, no slouching here, work fast.

If done, put on the second layer of plywood. Do it the first time right, afterwards no adjustments possible.

 

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Put on the upper (press) boards, again I used 1" plywood

 

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Clamping and fastening the upper (press boards) by screws and clamps.

I used the clamps for slowly building up the pressure on the flexible plywood.

 

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Just for showing how everything worked out, I put a finished sideboard with the scrap part in the mold.

 

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And then after a 24 hour curing time and some sawing and sanding, you have this!

 

For building the other side of the touneau side boards,  just swap the mold side boards, and repeat all the steps, as described above. No need for making two opposite molds. Further not much to add. Just one thing, make the mold, at least 2 inches larger on all sides and the side boards too. You need some extra for adjustment purposes, needed when you put the sides on the base seat boards.

If you have any questions about this process, don't hesitate ask them.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Sloth
Corrected text and pictures (see edit history)
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Hello Harm,

I was in hot stand-by to see this posting!  You did, in fact, answer many of my questions regarding your laminating procedure.  One thing I noticed and had not thought about was that you put a layer in your mold that was just to support the bottom piece to be glued, then glue and then add the top piece to be bent.  Also.... 🙂 I noticed the effect, of one of you past learning curves, regarding the use of the glue you have chosen, beware of dripping glue!  I am sure you would sooner sacrifice an old sheet then need to dig dried glue off your floor and table!  🙂  I do have a couple of comments and questions.  Which way do you lay the wood grain for the best results for  your laminating/bending?  I was also impressed that you would not even let your shop cats take any credit for this fine example of home style wood bending/laminating!  :-).  How many support brackets do you intend to use to stiffen these sides to the body base for rigidity?   Thanks for this posting!!

Al

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Posted (edited)

Hello Al,

Indeed you are right on the glue spilling. What I forgot to mention, I covered the mold with the paper stuff, used by plasterers to protect the floor when plastering walls etc.

Putting on the glue when the board is on the mold:  I don't like manipulating a 4 feet by 2 feet board with fresh glue on one side. I know what happens when a buttered slice of bread falls down... The glue I use, does not drip much , it has a buttery consistence. Its a bit harder to spread than other more fluid kinds of glue, but at least I am not allergic for this glue.

The wood grain: I used the kind of flexible plywood with the outer grains ran vertical ( side boards standing vertical). It is defined by the horizontal wave in the side board.

I think I will use 3 brackets on each side to stiffen the sides. One halfway the side board, one at the corner and one at the doorpost.

Regards,

Harm

 

Edited by Sloth
corrected spelling errors (see edit history)
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49 minutes ago, Sloth said:

The process  worked for me, but I am not responsible for etc etc., and can not held liable for etc.etc.,  nor can held liable any member of my household, nor can held liable my shop cats....😁

 

Harm, I had forgotten that we are posting on an American site and that we may be sued for giving advice. .:lol: . . It may make our posts rather long if we keep having to repeat the above each time we mention something!. ;)

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Having co-authored two books on the disassembly and reassembly of 19th and early 20th century firearms I'm something of an expert at wording this sort of thing. The simple answer is you never say "do this...etc." You say "I did this etc." Then, if someone makes a hash of it it's their responsibility. That said, I don't think this is an application where that sort of liability is a problem. Harm's description above is perfect...he's sharing what he did not telling us how we should do it.

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Joe, my post was written 'tongue in cheek'. Although, I do agree with your "I did this etc."

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Posted (edited)

Today, I continued building the tonneau seats. Boy, are these things time consuming!

 

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Slots into the seat base and small wooden plates.

 

I made 4 slots about 5/8"deep and 3 1/2"long (used a router with 1/4" router bit)  into the seat base and the side boards. Into the slots I will glue small strong wooden plates, vertical grain for strength. If the side board is dimensional OK and everything fits well, the side board slits over the wooden plates (with some glue) and all is fixed.

 

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The rear post in the rough

 

Making the rear posts took a lot of time (most time goes into measuring, just  to get it dimensional right and they must look right). Dimension of wood before processing 3 1/2" x 3 1/2".

 

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First try, putting the rear board, rear post and side board together. Not to bad I think

 

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Detail of the rear corner

 

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Inside view, rear post needs more fitting work done on it. Underside must be parallel to the seat board.

 

That is my report for today. Next few days, Anna and I have some social obligations. So I guess I can 't do much on the Cleveland 😢.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited by Sloth
Corrected sentence (see edit history)
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Ok Harm,

You are sure leading a great productive  "charge" on your Cleveland body building project!  Thanks for posting ,as I am getting some good ideas from your craftsmanship that I will use when I build in the future.  We are now really starting to see your Cleveland!  Now, go have fun with Anna....

Al

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Harm,

How was your social events of the weekend?  We are having some very winter like weather here in the US mountain west.

Al 

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Little late in seeing this post.  We had a 1903 Cleveland Rear Entrance Tonneau shown for many years in AACA.  It was owned by Roger Weiss of Yorkville, Illinois.  I used to show my Curved Dash Olds next to him  at many shows.  I believe I heard a few years ago that Roger passed away.  In any event, I am not sure where the car is today  but there is a fully restored example somewhere.  

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Hello Steve,

Roger has, in the past, provided some valuable help but I heard the same news regarding him, sadly.  If someone here may know of the whereabouts of the 1903 Cleveland that Roger owned, share some current information here as a help to Harm and his project.

Al

Edited by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Harm,

How was your social events of the weekend?  We are having some very winter like weather here in the US mountain west.

Al 

Hello Al,

We had a very nice weekend, but got way to late to bed. We are a member of the neighborhood association (taking care of each other and providing help were needed etc.), twice a year we have a celebration. That is a Midsummer outing and the New Years celebration. This year the board had decided we should have a "cycling diner". Some people cook the appetizer, others cook the main course and some cook the desert. Anna and I  cooked a main course for 6 neighbors (Boeuf Bourguignon).  Saturday afternoon we were ready. So at Saturday evening 6 o' clock , we went on our bikes to the neighbors (1 mile away) who served the appetizer. Then back to our home for the main course, then off we went for the desert (2 miles away). After that, we all gathered at the Inn on the end of our street (2 miles  away). Here we all started the well wishing and talking about the latest events in the neighborhood (a lot of gossip 😁). So Anna and I went to bed early Sunday morning. Yesterday was not a good day.... 🥴 we are getting to old for this kind of bed time.

The weather over here is mild, a lot of rain and windy, temperature about 48 F.  No frost or snow in sight, at least not for the coming 14 days.

Regards,

Harm

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2 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

Little late in seeing this post.  We had a 1903 Cleveland Rear Entrance Tonneau shown for many years in AACA.  It was owned by Roger Weiss of Yorkville, Illinois.  I used to show my Curved Dash Olds next to him  at many shows.  I believe I heard a few years ago that Roger passed away.  In any event, I am not sure where the car is today  but there is a fully restored example somewhere.  

Hello Steve,

Thank you for your post. Until a few years ago, I had regular contact with Roger. But since 4 years, I didn't got reply's to my questions. So I expected something had happened. Roger has helped me a lot with the answers, regarding restoring my Cleveland. He wrote that he knew for a long time, that my Cleveland existed, but as he wrote to me, "no one in his right mind would take this on 😄 ".

Regards,

Harm

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Monday and today, I got the side and rear boards of the tonneau done. Also fitted the rear posts, a very time consuming affair. Today made the rear door, but can not finish it, because I am waiting for the hinges and latch. I ordered the brass hinges at the Restoration Supply Company (no. BRA314).

 

Gentlemen, I need some help: around the edges of the body, a molding of a 1/2 round piece of ??? is used. What kind of material is used for that application. I must admit, I have no idea and can't find anything about it on the Web. Furthermore, it seems to me that  1/2 round material is not easy to bend in one direction (laying flat), the other direction seems no problem. Please be so kind, to let me know what your thoughts are about this.

 

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View of passengers side tonneau seat

 

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View of drivers side tonneau seat

 

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View of rear entrance door

 

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Rear view of entrance door

 

I am nearing the end of the body building. Jobs  left to do, making the molding under the front seat to the dash board, mounting the slats in the front seat. Making floor boards, for the front seat and the tonneau. Finishing the tounneau seat boards. Gluing and mounting the whole tonneau together (its now temporarily fixed by screws). Making some brackets for the tonneau, and making some brackets to keep the tonneau fixed on the main body. I will use steel locating pins to fix the position of the tonneau on the main body. Attach the main body to the chassis (6 carriage bolts).

Regards,

Harm

 

 

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Hello Harm,

Nice work!  I do like the structural strength of your corners.  Have you made up your steel support braces for various locations on your body?  I am anxious to see how you devise your locating pins and what the mounts will look like.  I am certainly making some mental notes for my own future purposes.

Al

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Hello Harm,

It looks like Mike has a perfect suggestion for the beading you need.

Al

Edited by alsfarms
clarity (see edit history)

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Hello Harm,

I am getting "in the mood" for radiator building.  So...I revisited page one of this blog and read again of your radiator building project.  Would you please put a tape to the copper return bends, you used, and let me know what the center to center measurement is  Also, what were the size of the .02 copper sheets that you used to form your fins from?  You are correct in your statement that copper sheet is a tad expensive...but doable.  I am considering whether to use belled return bends or straight return bends with couplers to connect the tubing to the return bends.  One advantage to doing as you have done is you reduce the number of sweated joints by one half.  Your response is appreciated if you have the time to revisit this older subject.

Al

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The half round wood trim you are looking for is called reed. May also be called rush or cane. It is still available on line or at some craft stores that sell supplies for wicker and basket weaving.  The quality is not very good so order twice as much as you need. It is available in 1/8th sizes. I am restoring a body similar to yours and the seats are trimmed with 5/8 and the rear tonneau door is trimmed in 3/8. Sharp 90 degree corners are mitered. You will have to steam reed for 1/2 to 1 Hr. to bend around corners. There are a lot of videos online that will teach you general steam bending.

 

You can make your own half round by planning an ash board down to the desired thickness. Use a 4 inch or wider board you can safely handle. Radius the edge with the proper bit on a router table. Then cut the half round edge off, You will have to steam bend the ash. Ash will be harder to bend than reed.

Edited by jdome (see edit history)
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On 1/14/2020 at 8:29 PM, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Nice work!  I do like the structural strength of your corners.  Have you made up your steel support braces for various locations on your body?  I am anxious to see how you devise your locating pins and what the mounts will look like.  I am certainly making some mental notes for my own future purposes.

Al

Hello Al,

Not yet, last two days I cleaned the shop and the tools. All very dusty.

Regards,

Harm

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On 1/15/2020 at 10:13 AM, Mike Macartney said:

Harm, is it 'pin beading' you are looking for? See the link below. Mike

 

https://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/category/115/pin-beading

 

Hello Mike,

That you for the answer and the link, I contacted Woolies. This is very nice stuff for the trim on the seat edges. Will order it very soon.

Regards,

Harm

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On 1/16/2020 at 12:21 AM, jdome said:

The half round wood trim you are looking for is called reed. May also be called rush or cane. It is still available on line or at some craft stores that sell supplies for wicker and basket weaving.  The quality is not very good so order twice as much as you need. It is available in 1/8th sizes. I am restoring a body similar to yours and the seats are trimmed with 5/8 and the rear tonneau door is trimmed in 3/8. Sharp 90 degree corners are mitered. You will have to steam reed for 1/2 to 1 Hr. to bend around corners. There are a lot of videos online that will teach you general steam bending.

 

You can make your own half round by planning an ash board down to the desired thickness. Use a 4 inch or wider board you can safely handle. Radius the edge with the proper bit on a router table. Then cut the half round edge off, You will have to steam bend the ash. Ash will be harder to bend than reed.

Hello jdome,

Thank you for this information. I must admit, I never thought of reed. Called some artist supply shops, no problem, they sell the stuff, but I am warned about the quality.

Regards,

Harm

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On the bending of wood strips or reed, the airplane guys soak it in an ammonia solution.  After a certain time, the wood or reed turns “plastic”, and you can bend it to any shape you want.

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On 1/15/2020 at 5:17 PM, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

I am getting "in the mood" for radiator building.  So...I revisited page one of this blog and read again of your radiator building project.  Would you please put a tape to the copper return bends, you used, and let me know what the center to center measurement is  Also, what were the size of the .02 copper sheets that you used to form your fins from?  You are correct in your statement that copper sheet is a tad expensive...but doable.  I am considering whether to use belled return bends or straight return bends with couplers to connect the tubing to the return bends.  One advantage to doing as you have done is you reduce the number of sweated joints by one half.  Your response is appreciated if you have the time to revisit this older subject.

Al

Hello Al,

The center to center measurement of the copper return bends is 2" (see picture).

 

1842929307_180garadenbocht.jpg.94e0b245febb172dbd4837fe84a6b6fa.jpg

 

I used two sheets of 0.02"copper sheet. Sheet dimension 40" x 80".

Regards,

Harm

 

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