Jump to content

1903 Cleveland Roadster project


Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

I discussed the matter with some brass car friends and engine shop owners. Most of them opted for welding... but the more I heard and read about it, the less I liked it. As Ed stated no welding or brazing and right he is! I also tried to contact by telephone, the gentleman Ed advised, but to no avail. So, after a lot of searching on the web I stumbled on ...... (no idea if it is allowed to name the company), I send them an email with some pictures and asked if the repair could be done by myself. I got a reply of Jeff (service manager) and asked some detailed information. Long story short, I will take on the repair by myself, and they will send me all the tools and stuff and  I will need to repair this engine. I already got a detailed drawing and instructions of the repair sequence. I know, it is not cheap, but sending  the engine to the USA and getting it back isn't cheap either (to say the least). I must admit I am looking forward to it.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

It is pretty clear fro the work you've done already that you are a careful as well as skilled workman. I think 98% of the errors people make come from rushing a job...so good luck and I'll be interested to see how it comes out.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Harm,

As you get yourself primed and ready to do this "pin" repair, please be real thorough with pictures so we can watch as your proceed and learn.  You never know when any of us will be confronted with a similar dilemma.  I have seen some information on do this type of repair at home and also think with a degree of patience and  with following the repair method to a "T", you will be successful.

Regards,

Al

Edited by alsfarms
spelling (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Sloth said:

. . . . but sending  the engine to the USA and getting it back isn't cheap either . . . .

 

Plus, the chance of the parcel going missing, which is sometimes a possibility. I look forward to reading about and seeing photos of the process.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that if I were going to attempt this on an otherwise irreplaceable part, I'd look around for another cracked iron casting to try it out on. I've found that with a new process, if I'm going to make an error, I do it at the beginning. With a little practice there are far fewer errors.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I think that if I were going to attempt this on an otherwise irreplaceable part, I'd look around for another cracked iron casting to try it out on. I've found that with a new process, if I'm going to make an error, I do it at the beginning. With a little practice there are far fewer errors.

 

 

I agree 100 percent. The commercial products available are NOT always a good fix/fit. My guy makes his own screws and bow ties........with different material, different threads, ect.............the learning curve to become a craftsman at stitching is huge.......think 7 years full time. Also, sharp drills by the handful are a must. And how you sharpen them makes a difference on how they track into the metal. Usually my guy sets up 20....yes 20 air drills and several power tappers when he starts to work. Also, when I had a block checked at my local shop for cracks.....we found two.......for a total of about five inches. The stitcher found SEVEN ...........his magna flux machine is the size of a small truck............ to be perfectly honest, I would send it to a full time stitcher....not a shop that has a guy who does it two or three times a year. There is no going backwards, and you can see this block has been unsuccessfully repaired by a tractor mechanic in the past. Be ready to make a new block...............thats why I recommended only using my guy.......I get nothing out of it but the satisfaction that he is the best in the world...........he fixes things for the US government and things like the gate valves on the Hoover Dam.............he is that good. 

 

Also stitcher should have a "farm" of old engines and castings to use as cut up's for material in all different shapes..........often times you need to replace a part of a casting with another..........it's a better repair. The twice a year guys just won't have a clue. 

 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Harm,

 

Do you have photos that show the all of the cylinder block from various angles? Out of curiosity I am trying to figure out how complex

a casting it is and how difficult replicating it would be if repairs are unsuccessful.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like photos also.........I estimate I could make one for 60-80 thousand finished..........and would need a years time...........and that price does not include multiple attempts to get a single good casting and could easily go higher.......thats why a good repair by the best guy is a bargin.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/17/2020 at 10:17 AM, Mike Macartney said:

 

Plus, the chance of the parcel going missing, which is sometimes a possibility. I look forward to reading about and seeing photos of the process.

Hello Mike,

Yes, that happened to me about 8 years ago. At a swap meet, I bought a Splitdorf type A (very early and rare) magneto, but not working. So I contacted a gentleman in the USA to restore it, and send the magneto with a well know shipping company to him. The shipping company managed to lose it...., they could not trace where it was etc. To this day I am still angry about their handling of the case 😡. The man who would restore the magneto told me, that it happened before.

Regards,

Harm

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello gentlemen,

Thank you for your comments and encouragement.  Before I take on the stitching of the Cleveland engine, I will try it out on a cracked block. If I do not feel save with the process I will stop and thinking again what to do. About the pictures, yes during the stitching process  I will make and publish a lot of them. 

To Edinmass, point taken.

To Terry and Ed, I don't have detailed pictures of the engine block. Coming Sunday I plan to make lots of pictures, and will send them to you by PM?

 

Today I received the Babbitt bearing material from Germany and also the repair parts for the NH carburetor from the USA. Each took just 5 days to arrive, to me it seems that the shipping of goods goes better and faster than it did some months ago at the beginning of the Corona crisis.

Regards,

Harm

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, edinmass said:

I would like photos also.........I estimate I could make one for 60-80 thousand finished..........and would need a years time...........and that price does not include multiple attempts to get a single good casting and could easily go higher.......thats why a good repair by the best guy is a bargin.

 

Have I been stupid with my having castings made for my early Perks & Birch and Singer Motor wheels? On the very early 1899 design, the barrel was actually missing, so I had no choice but to have one cast. 

 

The pattern making, for both barrels, was the most expensive part (I seem to remember about £900). The actual casting  of the barrels was around £100 (it may have been less). Should I have had more castings cast at the time and had them crack tested? To date, most of the machining has been completed on the early barrel (right in the photo) before I got waylaid by restoring some cars that just happened to turn up.

 

IMG_2062.thumb.JPG.6b8b7d6d9a35ba95846a5a37463ad0f2.JPG

 

The patterns and castings for my early motor wheel engines.

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Laughing Coyote said:

Can a new part be machined instead of cast?  With all the machining capabilities out there you would figure it could be done. Good luck.

Well, I guess it is possible, but -in my opinion- that would be quite a job to take on. On the other hand, the engine block itself is not complicated.

Regards,

Harm

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

Have I been stupid with my having castings made for my early Perks & Birch and Singer Motor wheels? On the very early 1899 design, the barrel was actually missing, so I had no choice but to have one cast. 

 

The pattern making, for both barrels, was the most expensive part (I seem to remember about £900). The actual casting  of the barrels was around £100 (it may have been less). Should I have had more castings cast at the time and had them crack tested? To date, most of the machining has been completed on the early barrel (right in the photo) before I got waylaid by restoring some cars that just happened to turn up.

 

The patterns and castings for my early motor wheel engines.

 

 

Hello Mike,

That are really nice patterns and castings, I am impressed :wub: I really love this kind of work!

Making a pattern of the Cleveland engine block does not seem too complicated. Its a simple straightforward engine, no hidden cavities. Could be reproduced without much trouble. The only thing which needs improvement, is the thickness of the deck. Its 3/16", and that is a bit on the thin side, I would go for 1/4" or 5/16". The threaded holes for the head studs don't have much meat on them either, improving that is easily done.

Regards,

Harm

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

Have I been stupid with my having castings made for my early Perks & Birch and Singer Motor wheels? On the very early 1899 design, the barrel was actually missing, so I had no choice but to have one cast. 

 

The pattern making, for both barrels, was the most expensive part (I seem to remember about £900). The actual casting  of the barrels was around £100 (it may have been less). Should I have had more castings cast at the time and had them crack tested? To date, most of the machining has been completed on the early barrel (right in the photo) before I got waylaid by restoring some cars that just happened to turn up.

 

IMG_2062.thumb.JPG.6b8b7d6d9a35ba95846a5a37463ad0f2.JPG

 

The patterns and castings for my early motor wheel engines.

 

 

 

Mike those castings look great! Considering the time that goes into developing and fabricating the patterns and core boxes the price you paid seems very reasonable.

Are the patterns 3D printed or traditional? Very nice!

 

 

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Harm, Terry and Mike,

This side f our Hobby is very interesting and is very much a part of what we all do.  I do think the pin repair is a good resolution, but should that not end up satisfactory, it may be a longer road but a doable project to have a new casting made.

Al

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

They are traditional wooden patterns made by a retired pattern maker. He liked to bet on the horse racing that was televised on Saturday afternoons. To give him money to bet with, he did some pattern making for a few vehicle enthusiasts. I presume his gambling was not as successful as his pattern making! 

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, jan arnett (2) said:

Hello Jan,

Yes, actually I did. At my former work (aerospace contract research) we did a lot of 3D printing, mostly used it for fast prototyping activities. Well metal printing; let me say, using metal printing wasn't exactly budget friendly..... Another challenge is making the right 3D drawings suitable for metal printing, not budget friendly either. Another department than mine, operated several of those machines, the operators where very skilled high end engineers. I must admit, we needed several exotic metal powders, those are huge cost drivers. One of the biggest advantages of metal printing for my department was, that one could print shapes, who could not be manufactured by conventional machining. For example: complex curves inside a "'semi hidden" cavity or many layers of  very small tubes (0.01" diameter). But, mostly, on the end of a project, I had some to explain to the "higher management". At home I have a 3D printer for PVC, ABS etc. filament. A very nice extension of the shop I must say.

Regards,

Harm

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

When pouring large cast iron castings...........you need to consider many more issues than you would on the small cycle cylinders we see above........which, by the way, look fantastic. Biggest problem is on a large casting you need to adapt the pattern for the particular foundry line that is pouring the iron. And trust me, the foundry has very different ideas of what they want, than the people making the patterns. I have done a series of very large castings and sold all of them, and all were successful. This is back before auto cad days.........when there were still talented pattern makers above ground. So once you get past a pattern design that is ok with the foundry.......you need to consider how many castings you make in the event of issues, or someone making a machine error. I agree the engine on the Cleveland is a simple one, but making a few castings are anything but simple..........more people cast junk that isn't even worth working with because they are too cheap or lazy to do it right the first time. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Lately, my neighbors (who only cast aluminum) have been getting some one-off jobs where the sand mold is created in a 3D printer. I saw a description of the process some years ago being used for rapid prototyping (and VERY expensive) but since then it apparently has started to become commercially viable. Of course, the computer skills involved are probably as demanding as real pattern making but going forward I suspect this method will be become much more viable.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s two or three separate skill sets.......Auto Cad, Casting and manufacturing, and engineering. Merge them all together and you get high costs on complicated and large items. Small items are much easier. I have worked with people who are on the cutting edge of some of this technology......it’s still very difficult and expensive to use.......to the extent that the old fashion way is often times a better option. Have you seen the 3D printer that is making food.........yup.....it’s happening. Base protein and color with taste. The problem so far is texture.......who wants to eat a steak that is the consistency of toothpaste?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ed you are correct there are distinct skills involved  - some the same some different from traditional methods.

A CAD program such as Solidworks or Inventor Professional can be daunting to learn and are indeed very expensive.

I teach pre-engineering at the high school level and it never ceases to amaze me how quickly the students pick it up. Also

there are some cheaper and even free products on the market. Some are good and some are best left to die.

 

One great program is Fusion 360 by Autodesk. Its free for individual home use and include a great CAM package to interface

with CNC capabilities.

 

Re-producing a part such as Harm has is in some ways easier since the shape and nominal dimensions can be pulled of of the existing part.  However, thats only the begining. Notice I said "nominal" dimensions. These are the basic dimensions that determine geometry and location of features (holes, bosses etc.) and for the most part they

do not need to be exact to the thousandth of an inch - only use high precision where required right? Next is determining the types of fits involved

 - running or sliding clearance fits, location clearance fits, transition clearance/interference fits, location interference and force or shrink fit.

 

Each fit is broken down into specific classes. For instance for running or sliding fits (RC)  we have RC1 through RC9. In this case, using RC fits, the size of

the components that will interface along with running speed and operating tempreture determine the minimum and maximum clearance (i.e. tolerance)

Then there are other things such as roughness of finish finishes, heat treatment etc. that have to be determined. 

 

I have made patterns both using traditional methods as well as 3d printing and CNC. All have advantages based on the specific application.

In the end 3D printed patterns are a fine solution but they are not the only solution and if you have to higher it all out it can indeed get expensive rather quickly - especially the 

CAD and engineering components which will eclipse by far the actual cost of the actual 3D printing and foundry work. Its akin to when I would design an

addition for say a house and the client - though we agreed on a price - would freek out when they saw all those thousands of dollars represented as

just two or three 22x34 Architectural drawings with no concept of the hours involved in code research, concept development, CAD work, not to mention years of applied knowlege, experience  and profesional liabilty incapsulated in those thin sheets of paper.

 

Again 3D printing its not the be-all-to-end-all and may not be the best choice for a particular application.

 

3D printed patterns and core boxes for bronze water manifold fittings. These were done on a fairly cheap home 3D printer. The 

core prints are panted red. These form a cavity that indexes and locks the core in place when the mould is assembled. The raw 3D printed

components are too rough to use as is so quite a pit of time was spent filling, sanding and painting. The smoother the finish the 

easier the pattern will pull from the sand.

IMG_1662.thumb.JPG.ef7fea411468dfa77aa23b4b7838e409.JPG

 

 

CNC wood pattern and corebox for valve covers for a Wisconsin model "B" T-head engine. Also shown is the original

part we used as a go-by.  The part was modeled in Solidworks than we used Fusion 360 to generate the tool paths

and post process to G-code.

IMG_0982.thumb.jpg.1a6c4088c7550337f65492b073ad96bc.jpg

 

Traditional wood patterns and core boxes for an intake manifold for a very large T-head engine. I actually made 

male patterns and cast plaster core boxes from them. Simple 2D drawings served as paper templates.

Lots of lathe work here!

100_3697a.jpg.176d5942be36c5cc0fd9daca330742bd.jpg

 

Intake manifold (exact copy of the original) assembled and ready to be polished. 

IMG_0097-a.jpg.6186aea278e58108ac0cd9a48d2d540f.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

One great program is Fusion 360 by Autodesk. Its free for individual home use . . . .

 

Terry, enjoyed reading the above and seeing the photos. As I am unable now, to do anything in the workshop, I am trying to learn Fusion 360, trying being the operative word! They say 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks' I think they might be correct. 🙂 Sorry Harm, for going 'off piste', but I could not resist it. Mike

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

Terry, enjoyed reading the above and seeing the photos. As I am unable now, to do anything in the workshop, I am trying to learn Fusion 360, trying being the operative word! They say 'you can't teach an old dog new tricks' I think they might be correct. 🙂 Sorry Harm, for going 'off piste', but I could not resist it. Mike

Mike the only time you can't teach a dog a new trick is when they have died.  You just have to want to learn.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Terry Harper said:

Ed you are correct there are distinct skills involved  - some the same some different from traditional methods.

A CAD program such as Solidworks or Inventor Professional can be daunting to learn and are indeed very expensive.

I teach pre-engineering at the high school level and it never ceases to amaze me how quickly the students pick it up. Also

there are some cheaper and even free products on the market. Some are good and some are best left to die.

 

One great program is Fusion 360 by Autodesk. Its free for individual home use and include a great CAM package to interface

with CNC capabilities.

 

Re-producing a part such as Harm has is in some ways easier since the shape and nominal dimensions can be pulled of of the existing part.  However, thats only the begining. Notice I said "nominal" dimensions. These are the basic dimensions that determine geometry and location of features (holes, bosses etc.) and for the most part they

do not need to be exact to the thousandth of an inch - only use high precision where required right? Next is determining the types of fits involved

 - running or sliding clearance fits, location clearance fits, transition clearance/interference fits, location interference and force or shrink fit.

 

Each fit is broken down into specific classes. For instance for running or sliding fits (RC)  we have RC1 through RC9. In this case, using RC fits, the size of

the components that will interface along with running speed and operating tempreture determine the minimum and maximum clearance (i.e. tolerance)

Then there are other things such as roughness of finish finishes, heat treatment etc. that have to be determined. 

 

I have made patterns both using traditional methods as well as 3d printing and CNC. All have advantages based on the specific application.

In the end 3D printed patterns are a fine solution but they are not the only solution and if you have to higher it all out it can indeed get expensive rather quickly - especially the 

CAD and engineering components which will eclipse by far the actual cost of the actual 3D printing and foundry work. Its akin to when I would design an

addition for say a house and the client - though we agreed on a price - would freek out when they saw all those thousands of dollars represented as

just two or three 22x34 Architectural drawings with no concept of the hours involved in code research, concept development, CAD work, not to mention years of applied knowlege, experience  and profesional liabilty incapsulated in those thin sheets of paper.

 

Again 3D printing its not the be-all-to-end-all and may not be the best choice for a particular application.

 

3D printed patterns and core boxes for bronze water manifold fittings. These were done on a fairly cheap home 3D printer. The 

core prints are panted red. These form a cavity that indexes and locks the core in place when the mould is assembled. The raw 3D printed

components are too rough to use as is so quite a pit of time was spent filling, sanding and painting. The smoother the finish the 

easier the pattern will pull from the sand.

IMG_1662.thumb.JPG.ef7fea411468dfa77aa23b4b7838e409.JPG

 

 

CNC wood pattern and corebox for valve covers for a Wisconsin model "B" T-head engine. Also shown is the original

part we used as a go-by.  The part was modeled in Solidworks than we used Fusion 360 to generate the tool paths

and post process to G-code.

IMG_0982.thumb.jpg.1a6c4088c7550337f65492b073ad96bc.jpg

 

Traditional wood patterns and core boxes for an intake manifold for a very large T-head engine. I actually made 

male patterns and cast plaster core boxes from them. Simple 2D drawings served as paper templates.

Lots of lathe work here!

100_3697a.jpg.176d5942be36c5cc0fd9daca330742bd.jpg

 

Intake manifold (exact copy of the original) assembled and ready to be polished. 

IMG_0097-a.jpg.6186aea278e58108ac0cd9a48d2d540f.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Terry, great post. Too many people today think new technology is just point and click. Not only do the computer people need very specialized skills.........how many computer guys understand metallurgy, casting, machining, ........the list of problems is staggering. Then, how many castings will be scrap before you get a usable unit. Finding a machine shop willing to do the work......another staggering problem.......and then can they actually pull it off and do it right? Today’s casting techniques are light years ahead and different from 100 years ago. Most modern castings are half as thick, or even less than the early days of automobiles. Most modern castings are treated for porosity, as they are so thin they leak oil/fluids. My guess is a skilled programmer/designer would not be familiar with what is needed for something pre war.....so there would be even more learning curve.

 

 

Terry, can you expand on the laser scanners and how the function and relate from start to finish with a product in hand?

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, edinmass said:

Terry, can you expand on the laser scanners and how the function and relate from start to finish with a product in hand?

 

Hello Ed, Sure. I do not have a laser scanner in my classroom/lab. Every year I include $30,000 - $40,000 in my yearly budget

with predictable results. I think I need to find a wealthy benefactor (LOL)

 

With that said I have worked with the scanners at the Univerisity of Maine Advanced Manufacturing Center and our local community

college precision machine program. Both are Faro systems $$$$$$$ Like a lot of things you get what you pay for and if your going to

purchase a system you can't be shy about forking over the cash - you want the best system you can possibly afford and beyond.

 

3D scanners have really become a mainstay of the manufacturing industry as comparitors - i.e. scanning finished components

and using the resulting model and data to verify that the part is within tolerance and specifications. In this regard they excell.

 

In regards to our context of reverse engineering. Scanning works well but there is a process. The actual scanning is the easy part.

With a high end scan the resulting model will incorporate every flaw, every scratch, every dent of the original. Once the 3D 

model is in the system all those blemishes and imperfections need to be removed. This of course takes time. 

 

We also have to perform what I call "rationalization" When the original part was machined it was held

to specific tolerances to maintain what we call design intent. Design intent is how a component will interact with other

components - sliding, rotating, location etc. The original part we have scanned was machined with specific tolrances

to allow that interaction. We have to adjust dimensions of features that are critical to maintaining the design intent. Lets take for

example a cube of cast iron. As scanned the dimensions may be 2.026 x 1.985 Since our cube dosen't interface with any other part

we recognize that we can adjust the dimensions to 2.00 x 2.00 without affecting how the cube looks or functions. In fact if we 

could jump in the way back machine and look over the draftsman's shoulder we would most likely see that the original

long lost drawing called out the dimension as 2.00 x 2.00. If the finished casting came out slightly small or slightly bigger

it didn't effect function. 

 

Now lets get a bit more complicated. Lets add a hole in our cube that a shaft runs through. We have previously rationalized the 

cube dimensions to 2.00 x 2.00. Our scanned model shows that the hole for the shaft is 1.0081. I would rationlize this along with the shaft

to a nominal dimension of 1.000 and use that as the basis for calculating the clearance and resulting tolerance.

 

Flanges, mounting bosses etc. all go through the same process. For instance a mounting boss that scanned at 0.93375 in diameter is 

going to be adjusted to 1.000 in diameter. The rationalization is that most of the time the designers of the day loved to work in 

nice numbers:  inch, quarter of an inch and eighth of an inch. For instance a flange that scanned at 0.7225 would

become 0.7500 if it was 0.522 it would become 0.500" and so forth. Then we add improvements etc.

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that depending upon the geometry of the part is that you may not be able to scan internal

passages. In some cases the part can be sectioned (cut apart) to access these but in other instances  its an educated guess.

 

All of this has to be incorporated in the 3D CAD model  - all this takes time which translates to $$$$$ The notion that a few

minutes can be spent scanning the part and then sending it directly to be 3D printed is simply not reality. Client: "But it only

took you 15 minutes to scan the part! Why am I being charged over a thousand dollars?!"  My answer: "Why do you pay such huge fees to 

your accountant?" 

 

Once all the above has taken place we now follow the same steps as if we modeled the part from scratch - develop 2D shop drawings,

Modify the 3D CAD model as required for the pattern and then 3D print or CNC machine the part. I am not sure if I mentioned this before

but one of the major, major benefits of using 3D software is that the 2D shop drawing is directly linked to the 3D CAD file.

If I have to make a change I modify the 3D CAD file and in turn the changes will appear on the 2D shop drawings requiring

only modification to related dimensions a callouts.

 

When I look at Harm's project I see a nice set of traditional wood patterns. For the core boxes for the water passages

I would consider fabricating wood male masters and cast core boxes in plaster. Or perhaps these might lend themselves

to 3D printing. I would use a CAD program such as Fusion 360 (again free for home use) to develop a 3D models of the patterns

and core boxes so you can verify how everything fits together and then print-off full size 2D drawings to use as patterns while

fabricating the patterns.

 

Again, its all about choosing the right method for the application based on each methods strengths and weaknesses.

Here is an example:

We named this "The impossible part". Its a simple water manifold fitting for a Wisconsin T-head. Since the part has two 90 degree bends

(one horizontal the other verticle) and in fact tappers throught its length I decided to use a 3D printed pattern due to the curved part line.

Trying to model it from skratch proved frustrating and nearly impossible. The reason being that the CAD program works within geometric

rules and limitations and to match the dimensions of the oriiginal these needed to broken which meant that we simply could not get

the part to model correctly. I Isuspect the pattern maker simply carved and blended the original wood pattern - I don't have those skills!

 

Anyway, we opted to scan it and work off of that.

 

IMG_1216.thumb.jpg.36025cabe88452530ad5c9ce7ae0a506.jpg

 

Here is a link to the video of the scanning process:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4Ehgt633vw

 

 

 

Anyway, I hope this helps!

 

Best regards,

 

Terry

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hello gentlemen,

I love this 3D discussion. That's why we report our restorations, don't we? We learn ticks, new techniques, and also old(er) techniques and got tips to make life easier (some times, that is). In my humble opinion, all this, enriches us very much.

Terry, I learned a lot from your former posts. Also I followed with great interest your blog on the Practical Machinist forum, were you reported restoring the  large Wisconsin engine. I have no problem with the deviation of subject in my blog. I am looking at it as a vacation trip, driving along at a nice touristic route. Sometimes one leaves the main road to look whats behind the next tree, but after a while one returns to the main road.

 

Well, returning to the main road:

Today I managed to get the chassis on its four wheels, a milestone is reached! At the moment, I am very happy, although I realize much has to be done. The whole steering gear must be made. I have some parts but a lot must be made/repaired. Further some special nuts for the kingpins and the front stub axles.

 

116220053_Chassisonitswheels.jpg.a1984dcd788581aefa8c6341c94d9eb3.jpg

At last, on all its 4 wheels.

 

633784272_Chassistopview.jpg.9b18bd8730b8eecc86092c3209458544.jpg

Just a better view of the chassis.

 

245661213_Leftsidefrontaxle.thumb.jpg.c03e099794439fbafe39aa37eba804cc.jpg

Picture of left front side

 

183174987_Rightsidefrontaxle.thumb.jpg.344a8b2382a65d9a9ac420feff9a680c.jpg

Picture of right front side

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well put Terry and Ed. There is a major disconnect between knowing how something is done and knowing how to do it. To the person who doesn't know how it's done, it looks easy but the person who has to do it will see all the attendant problems, if not at first, long before the part is completed. On a very minor scale I deal with this constantly. Everything has to be designed and made according to the limits of the machines used in the making and those limitations often effect the finished design.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Gentlemen, as promised, some detail pictures of the Cleveland engine block.

 

1493160021_Bottomside.jpg.5cdc2a03b73f1688fd386260c3be0452.jpg

Botom side

 

750237091_Leftside.thumb.jpg.f716dcb11daaf4b717c02d1d4c07d7b5.jpg

Right side (as seen from the top deck)

 

560679389_Rightside.thumb.jpg.02f9d140764c96b1e118b991d3b34e70.jpg

Left side (as seen from the top deck)

 

Upside.thumb.jpg.e4c4912343aa2185b1941508e4867094.jpg

Up side

 

Underside.thumb.jpg.041023a989734587228172340b2014cf.jpg

Crank shaft bearing side

 

Top.thumb.jpg.1be0df975a3fdb637c0f0a6069ed06bd.jpg

Cylinder deck

 

Some dimensions:

Length of block as pictured: 20.375"

Outside dimensions crank shaft bearing side: 11.22" x 4.33"

Width of ears at crank shaft bearing side: 5.7"

Inside dimensions at crank shaft bearing side: 10" x 3.35

Diameter of cylinder outside: 6"

Diameter of cylinder inside: 4.8

Length of cylinder outside: 6"

 

Gentlemen, if you need more dimensions or pictures, please feel free to ask.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow!

 

Harm, the pattern and cores look to be very simple. On first thought I am thinking you can do this as one two piece pattern

with the part line running perpendicular to the crank axis - this would avoid under cuts and the need for pinned pattern pieces

The handhole opening would be formed by a core print Combined with core prints at the top & bottom it would be nice and secure.

 

The core forming the water jacket space would be fairly straight forward. The tricky part is keeping the water jacket space core

from shifting since there is no support at the bottom and only the two openings at the top You would need to use the inlet/outlet

openings as core prints to help lock it in place combined with chaplets. I would consult with your foundry about this to see what

they suggest or are comfortable with.

 

Harm, this is certainly doable and looks like it would be fun. I am still thinking wood. All varnished-up it would be a piece of art in itself!

 

Upside.thumb.jpg.e4c4912343aa2185b1941508e4867094.jpg.181ecd6675954e3e8e75a40839e62380.jpg

 

Underside.thumb.jpg.041023a989734587228172340b2014cf.jpg.d443b78792f9845d125af5e413f79ef2.jpg

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Everyone,  I am away for a couple of days and my...this conversation has grown legs and is is off to the races.  We all have learned to appreciate the pattern maker and also a good casting facility.  If Harm decides to spring for a new casting, this casting does appear to be not overly complex but would still need a good machinist to do the machine work.  It is sad that there is not 50 fellows out restoring this same type automobile and would be willing to share the cost of patterns, casting and machining.

Al

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I'd give a try to creating a 3D CAD model of the engine block.  I didn't really have enough actual dimensions, so I scaled from the photos.  Undoubtedly, there are many things wrong in the CAD model, but it indicates it could be done.  My CAD program says the casting would weigh about 68 lbs/30.5 kg.  Because of the length of 20.375 inches, it would take a big 3D printer to print out a pattern.  Additional models would be needed for cores, but there are now 3D printers that will print green sand cores.  

 

2138269886_Clevland1903block1.thumb.png.26035dfd85922892020b8e167be84cff.png

 

View of left side.

1550130376_Clevland1903blockbot.thumb.png.fd6538ec1d4c3aec6a2809a9145807e4.png

 

View of bottom.

 

2040077068_Clevland1903blockside.thumb.png.1c1fee1f1099d8f87c5b1b0a389b6a51.png

View of right side.

Edited by Gary_Ash (see edit history)
  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The technocolgy is very impressive.......even knowing the weight of the casting is amazing. The Brush guys made new castings of engine blocks in England a few years ago.......all 3D printed for the patterns and cores.......they came out fantastic. They added extra material where things had proven troubblesom over the years. What impressed me most is the casting pattern programs transferred into the CNC machines to do the actual machine work. They got a good unit on their first try. Now that the "own" the data, they can make blocks on an as needed basis. For some reason it sticks in my memory the first one was about 40K all in....but the is no where near certain.........just my poor memory. Anyways, they have since made multiple units, doing the numbers if you could make ten blocks and sell them for a total of say fifty grand, your at 5k for a new machined block......which is very fair, unfortunately not everyone who owned a similar car got on the band wagon, if they did the price would be even lower...........Gary, when your done with your current build project, you could start a nice side line making parts for collectors......I'm sure I know enough people who would keep you busy. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hello Garry,

That are really very nice drawings, I am properly impressed. You are good with it, what program do you use? The weight is not far off, 27.8kg / 61.4 pound. Thank you for spending the time to make these nice 3D drawings.

Regards,

Harm

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...