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1903 Cleveland Roadster project


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Hello, today Anna and I started removing a lot of branches, blown off the trees. We are happy that no damage to our property is done. But we have still a lot of bad weather, wet snow, rain, hail and a lot of wind. After a while, we got wet and cold, so we retreated to the shop, where it is dry and warm. Started filling and continued to sand the body.

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

Do you have a combination of evergreen trees and leaf bearing?  Hopefully the branches blown out of your trees will only be for the good and did not wreck the shape of your trees.  I had a bad wind literally break the top out of a large full grown English Walnut tree a couple of years ago.  I had to pear it down significantly to get it into a condition that it could regrow into a beautiful tree again.....in a few years!  Glad no harm was done to your shop or home!

Regards,

Alan

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2 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Do you have a combination of evergreen trees and leaf bearing?  Hopefully the branches blown out of your trees will only be for the good and did not wreck the shape of your trees.  I had a bad wind literally break the top out of a large full grown English Walnut tree a couple of years ago.  I had to pear it down significantly to get it into a condition that it could regrow into a beautiful tree again.....in a few years!  Glad no harm was done to your shop or home!

Regards,

Alan

 

Hello Alan, thanks. No evergreen trees over here, all trees in my neighborhood are at the moment leafless. Only the Ivy is has some green leaves. We have some large old Oaks, Birches and Willows. Further a variety of Apple trees, Prunes, Cherry trees  and some Acacia trees, and one Walnut tree. In the spring most of them bloom very well, its a nice and colorful sight. A few years ago we lost a very large apple tree (she was at least 30 feet high), this, due to a summer storm with strong whirlwinds. I was very fond of that tree. The stump is still standing, could not bring myself to bring it down, maybe this spring.

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

I feel your pain at loosing a favorite apple tree!  Are you going to replace it with a similar variety?  I have an OLD apple tree that is a very good tasting variety, good for sauce, eating, juicing or cooking.  The bad thing is it is on its last hoorah.  I am taking a class on "grafting" to learn the proper method for grafting so I can pull some scion wood from the tree while it is still alive and make 4 or 5 new trees out of the old.  I am curious, have you proceeded further with your body bracket building to connect the body with the frame?

Regards,

Alan

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2 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

I feel your pain at loosing a favorite apple tree!  Are you going to replace it with a similar variety?  I have an OLD apple tree that is a very good tasting variety, good for sauce, eating, juicing or cooking.  The bad thing is it is on its last hoorah.  I am taking a class on "grafting" to learn the proper method for grafting so I can pull some scion wood from the tree while it is still alive and make 4 or 5 new trees out of the old.  I am curious, have you proceeded further with your body bracket building to connect the body with the frame?

Regards,

Alan

Hello Alan,

Good of you to learn grafting, its not an easy thing to do. Yes, we will replace the tree, at the moment no idea with variety we will buy. Anna may decide on that 😇.

Regards,

Harm

 

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Hello,

Today, I inserted the door into the body. The hinges are perfect, good quality and stiff fitting. Fitting the door was not easy and took more time than I thought. I am not satisfied, the gap on the left side is not parallel with the doorpost, furthermore the door is not flush on the left side with the body. I wait making corrections till the body is on the chassis and the chassis is on the wheels. As the body and the door are very rigid, there is not much "wiggling" room, well I can always make another door 😢.

 

2124020413_Rearsidewithopendoor.jpg.f30ec5e99a63421aafa5682da046f8a8.jpg

Open rear entrance door.

 

1218408456_Rearwithcloseddoor.thumb.jpg.c5ab9abe9126bec4a71f4742b579bac0.jpg

Rear entrance door, not flush with body (1/4" deviation)

 

934929754_Doordetail.jpg.131615f37d16c5448f2dd211fe3c36e3.jpg

Inside view rear entrance door.

 

1471566601_Bodydriversside.jpg.5a2cb46ee023deb01075224f4fff2359.jpg

Sanding and filling again.

 

After looking at the sales brochure again, it became clear to me that I forgot something quite important. The tonneau seats 3 persons! So I have to make a seat between the right seat and the left seat. I must say I have no idea how it was made in 1903. Never seen a car with a three seat rear entrance tonneau.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth
Corrected right side by left side (see edit history)
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Hello Harm,

Nice work for sure!  I think more of the rear entrance cars had provision for three than we might think.  I have seen more rear doors padded on the inside which infers that someone could be using the door as a seat back.  On another but very realistic note,  your body building product is probably equal to or better in fit and finish than the car when it was new!  🙂 So I am seeing that Anna and Harm could give us another photo shoot for Valentines with sweethearts in the rear tonneau (lovers seat).  🙂

Regards,

Alan

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Hello gentlemen,  no Valentine pictures for sitting in the tonneau (Al, sorry to disappoint you). Being not so athletic anymore 😁, we did not take any risk to climb into the tonneau (which, at the time,  is not firmly secured to the under body).

 

Today, I spend some time adjusting the rear entrance door, it fits a bit better now.

Further, I made 2 hold down brackets, for securing the tonneau to the under body. Went well, I will assemble them tomorrow.

Made them of hot rolled steel. The long parts are 1" x 6" x 1/4" thick. The square plates are 2" x 2" x 1/4".  Thumb screw thread = 3/8" UNC, wing width 1 1/2".

 

386800195_Holddownbracket.jpg.7bc951a3733f9cd1db42355588ca0add.jpg

Hold down brackets.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

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15 minutes ago, Sloth said:

. . . . no Valentine pictures for sitting in the tonneau

 

It is better to be safe than sorry. We don't want you or Anna to come to any harm! Which reminds me, Harm is an unusual name, I have not come across that name before, does it have a equivalent Christian name in English?

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Hello Harm,

Ok, I finally received the hinges to be used on my rear entrance door.  I am satisfied with them  and I will like the appearance.  I am hoping that the use of this style hinge will allow me to adjust the  rear door, when open to hang more perpendicular to the frame and not swing down.  We will see if my plan will or can work out!  On your given name Harm as inquired by Mike above, my Father had a first cousin with the given name "Harmon" who was called Harm all his life.  He was a great guy and "Harm" seemed so natural.  What is next for the Cleveland......

Regards,

Alan

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On 2/14/2020 at 5:04 PM, Mike Macartney said:

 

It is better to be safe than sorry. We don't want you or Anna to come to any harm! Which reminds me, Harm is an unusual name, I have not come across that name before, does it have a equivalent Christian name in English?

Hello Mike,

My name -Harm- is not that common in the Netherlands, most "Harms" can be found in the Northern part of our country. Furthermore,  the name Hermann (2 n' s)  is a Germanic equivalent of Harm, and much more common in some form, all over Europe. The meaning of the name is: warrior or soldier.

In my family (with the surname Slot), as far as we can go back in time, the eldest son of a generation was named Harm. His eldest son was named Klaas, then Harm again, followed by a Klaas and so on. Tradition is strong here 😊. The equivalent in English is Harmon or Herman (with just one n).

 

Just an anecdote, in which I could use my name to good use -more or less 😄-.  In my professional life, I was head of a R&D department. It was a really tight knit bunch of nice people. One day a department member made a cartoon of the members of a particular group (tribe that is...) of  the department. The cartoon was loosely based on the comic strip "Astrix and Obelix" (well known in Europe, no idea for the USA).  The reason  for this cartoon was as follows: a few years ago we build a new laboratory. But some of the department members ( the tribe...) where situated in a separate very old building (they lived there for ages...), the tribe refused to move to the new building. Well long story short, I was portrayed as standing on a warrior shield, which was held up by two strong men. I was told,  it was my rightful place as head of the troupes including the tribe. They had given me the name: chief "Harmless", because I got things done but was harmless to my colleges. Well you could be depicted worse!  But after some friendly meetings 😒, every one,  (including the tribe) moved to the new building 🤭. You can achieve a lot with humor. It is one of my dearest memories....

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Ok, I finally received the hinges to be used on my rear entrance door.  I am satisfied with them  and I will like the appearance.  I am hoping that the use of this style hinge will allow me to adjust the  rear door, when open to hang more perpendicular to the frame and not swing down.  We will see if my plan will or can work out!  On your given name Harm as inquired by Mike above, my Father had a first cousin with the given name "Harmon" who was called Harm all his life.  He was a great guy and "Harm" seemed so natural.  What is next for the Cleveland......

Regards,

Alan

 

Hello Alan,

Very nice hinges you have. Are the made of steel or brass?  I guess the name Harm is uncommon in the USA, even Harmon is not that common?

Regarding the Cleveland: first of all, cleaning the shop,  it is a dusty mess now. Tools all over the place, its a real nuisance. I hope on the end of the next week, to start with cleaning the chassis and make a fresh start assembling the springs, axles at the chassis.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth
removed double quote (see edit history)
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Hello harm,

These hinges are made of malleable steel.  This material lends its self well to welding and modification as needed for installation.

Regards,

Al

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Thank you interesting information regarding your name and the short story regarding work and 'Mr Harmless', very nice. After I had written my post to you, I looked it up the name 'Harm' on the internet and found out the English equivalent was Herman. I am of the age that I forget about using the internet as a first port of call for information.

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Hello Harm,

I didn't know the of relationship between Herman and Harmon.  Very interesting.  A while back I learned that my first given name "Alan" is a more typical spelling in Old English than the more typical "Allen" spelling.  We are sure getting into trivia!  I hope the weather in Holland has settled down so you can get your new tractor put to work!  I still have 8 hours of work to get my loader back into full service.  After 40 years service, I have had to rebuild two cylinders, several pivot points and some cross structure to repair from years of dandy service.  As quick as our weather breaks, I need to be on that tractor for a good solid week catching up with things.

Regards,

Alan 

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1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

I didn't know the of relationship between Herman and Harmon.  Very interesting.  A while back I learned that my first given name "Alan" is a more typical spelling in Old English than the more typical "Allen" spelling.  We are sure getting into trivia!  I hope the weather in Holland has settled down so you can get your new tractor put to work!  I still have 8 hours of work to get my loader back into full service.  After 40 years service, I have had to rebuild two cylinders, several pivot points and some cross structure to repair from years of dandy service.  As quick as our weather breaks, I need to be on that tractor for a good solid week catching up with things.

Regards,

Alan 

Hello Alan,

Whats in a name, they say....  well, to my humble opinion, a lot!

Today the (new to me) 2nd hand tractor arrived. Yes the weather calmed down but it still rained a lot, no tractor activities. Furthermore the land is soaking wet. After 40 years of good use, servicing the loader is not too bad. Its seems a quality product to me.

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

Around my farm and automobile activities, I simply would not be able to do anything without my loader!  That equipment is probably my all around most used piece.  Not having the loader would be like cutting off my right arm!  I have not kept up with the status of your Cleveland chassis, Do you have all your springs fit and axles in place with wheels.  If so your project will take a huge step forward when the body gets married to the frame with a grand marriage ceremony!  I will be working on the patterns I have for the front fenders and get them sent off to you.

Regards,

Alan

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10 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Have you been busy with the Cleveland or have you had a distraction or two like the rest of us?

Regards,

Alan

Hello Al,

Cleaned the shop somewhat, sorted out the tools and had to do  some household chores. Today another storm arrived, lots of rain again. According to the weather forecast, its the fifth storm this year. Slowly we getting some problems with the water, just to much rain. Our pasture changed into a swamp (no alligators -yet-).

Coming week I will start with the assembly of the rear axle. First I must find all the parts 😉.

Regards,

Harm

 

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Hello Harm,

Good luck with finding all the missing parts!  If you have had the rear end apart for some time, and am like me, I end up moving parts thinking that I will recall where I shuffled parts to....then like magic, I get to search high and low, (just like a game of "hide and seek")!

Regards,

Alan

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20 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Good luck with finding all the missing parts!  If you have had the rear end apart for some time, and am like me, I end up moving parts thinking that I will recall where I shuffled parts to....then like magic, I get to search high and low, (just like a game of "hide and seek")!

Regards,

Alan

Hello Alan,

Yes, I could not find a better description for the process I went through today. But on the end of the day, success (I think I re discovered all parts😃).

Regards,

Harm

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Hello all,

Today I went searching for the rear axle parts of the Cleveland. No to bad, on the end of the day I found all of them (I think / hope  😏). Most parts are OK, but I found something which displeased me to no end (years ago, and still increases my blood pressure).

 

222262734_Bearingballs.jpg.13185c69434abe331a55af061e8ecd2d.jpg

New 1/2" bearing balls, used for the 2 axle bearings.

 

679240729_Differentialorcompensatinggear.jpg.41f447a670a002dad9cfae492f338f86.jpg

Balance gear -differential that is-, with sleeve gear not pictured here

 

1303284506_Oneofsixsmallgearsofcompensatinggear.jpg.2af5cdf95495a1de410523708df90dfc.jpg

One of the six pinions

 

As can be seen at the pictures at the introduction of this project, the pinions were missing and the two housing drums got a lot of beating to them. But after some patience and hammering, I got them in shape again.

I had the pinions made by a company in England. The reason for this was, that to get the proper number of teeth with the given diameter, some undercutting is necessary. Could not find a company in the Netherlands who would do it for me, but got the name of the English company. I called them and told what my problem was. Well long story short, 6 weeks later I got six perfect pinions. I am very pleased with the result, and did not need to rob a bank for it😁 .

 

436304032_Sleeveaxle.jpg.bfb1217e72ec906dfc86c379f38032be.jpg

Sleeve axle with gear and  nut for fixing the wheel hub on the sleeve axle.

 

As can be seen on the picture, the sleeve axle was also damaged by many hammer blows, it sat solid on the long live axle. It took a lot of effort (big hydraulic press and heat) to separate the two. Had the sleeve center-less grind-ed and polished.

 

And now the part I really hate to report.

When I disassembled the rear axle, and after some machining of the parts, I assembled it again. I could not get the axle running straight between centers, it wobbled. First I thought, well to much pressure or heat when I disassembled it. But after looking better, I saw some odd color differences on the solid steel axle. I took it with me to my work, and asked some friendly colleagues of the material research department for their opinion. Long story short, the rear axle bar was made up of three parts, welded together.

 

863744726_Detailofweldedrearaxle2.jpg.c67379e32a398e4b278efec9be3d51a3.jpg

Welding number 1

 

1269166774_Detailofwelding2.thumb.jpg.53d89a72abe6976135f671a11724553d.jpg

Welding number two

I asked for a material analysis, both parts at welding picture number 1 are the same material. The steel properties are not bad (for 1902), but it has a very high carbon content and as such totally unsuitable to be welded. The pieces on the second welding picture are different. One is of 1902 or so, but the other is modern, something like C45k, and both are not suitable for welding. It really pissed me off then. I consider this kind of 'repair' very dangerous and very irresponsible of some previous owner. So I made a new one, safe but not original ☹️, end of story. Blood pressure decreases.....a bit. End of rant.

 

 

1336863272_Sprockets11and38theets.jpg.f41b34224ab6cc1b269e4e547685dc86.jpg

The two sprocket 11 and 38 teeth 1"pitch, must be machined to fit on the balance gear and the gear box.

 

Botched nut on axle.jpg

Someone destroyed the nut which secures the hub on the axle, well its just left hand threat...

 

Axle stays.jpg

Axle stay irons, have to make 2 new bolts

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth
Pushed the save button to early... (see edit history)
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Hello Harm,

I do not know what drives some of us to do the dumb things we do!  (as in your example above...totally unsafe)  Sometime, when we are talking over the fence, I will share a similar story that will make you cringe!  Show us what your new finished axle looks like!  That is a way better remedy....good for you!   

Regards,

Alan

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Harm, is the LH thread a problem? I'm guessing here but if your lathe isn't set up for Imperial threads (and that is what it has) I'd be happy to make you a nut.

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21 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

Harm, is the LH thread a problem? I'm guessing here but if your lathe isn't set up for Imperial threads (and that is what it has) I'd be happy to make you a nut.

Hello sir,

Thank you for your generous offer. Imperial left hand thread is no problem, one of these days I will make the nut. Btw, I am very impressed by your outstanding work on the Mitchell. If needed, I guess you are able to build an engine from scratch.

Regards,

Harm

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The castings would be a challenge but I confess to have thought about it. It would certainly be a challenge but I'd wonder if I'll live long enough to finish it.

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3 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Have you been able to source or fit modern bearing and bushings where needed to restore your front and rear axles?

Regards,

Alan

Hello Al,

For the rear axle no replacement bearing could be found. I just replaced the bearing balls, the races are more or less usable. For the front axle, I could not find replacements (odd size side contact ball  bearings). I found taper roller bearings, but had to modify the hubs slightly.

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

Were the springs that came with your chassis usable or did you have new springs built?  I need to address the spring issue soon.

Regards,

Alan

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2 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Were the springs that came with your chassis usable or did you have new springs built?  I need to address the spring issue soon.

Regards,

Alan

Hello Alan,

The springs that came with the chassis where not usable (way to weak) and wrong with respect to the eyes. I had new ones made. Be careful with the spring eyes. On my Cleveland the front springs have one eye which points to the topside of the spring, the other eye points to the downside. At the rear springs, both eyes are pointing to the downside of the springs. It took some effort to convince the gentleman who made them, that the specifications where right. Spring specifications as they are:  length between the eye centers 32", width 5 1/2 ", thickness of blades 1/4", number of blades 4. Ends of the 3 under laying blades are tapered and rounded (that part I did my self, took me two days...😏). I don't know what quality steel they used.

 

I guessed that the weight (with 5 people onboard) is not evenly distributed front/rear. My best guess front/rear distribution: front 40% rear 60% . I guessed the whole car including 5 people would weight 1870 lbs / 850 kg max. As the wheels and the axles don't count in this equation, I subtracted  220 lbs / 100 kg for the two axles and 4 wheels, so the total weight for the springs will be1650 lbs / 750 kg. That gives a front spring load of approx. 330 lbs / 150 kg through each front spring, and a rear spring load of approx. 500 lbs / 225 kg through each rear spring ). So my spec for the springs was: front 330 lbs /150 kg nominal load, rear springs 500 lbs / 225 kg nominal load.

Including the length and width , this was sufficient data for the gentleman to make the springs. To be honest,  I suspect him, that he made the springs all the same, except for the position of the spring eyes 😉.

Regards,

Harm

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Hello, today I started with the turning of the large chain sprocket. To make it fit on the balance gear drum, a lot of metal must be removed. As I bought it, it has a large boss this too must be removed.  So in the lathe with it, and I started making chips. Came half way today, tough steel..... USA OSHA and our ARBO officers would get a heart attack when the saw this 😊 (and right they are...) So no lose clothing and stay away from the chuck! Must admit, I don't like this job at all.

 

444663665_Largesprocketwheel.jpg.40401e5bf89014ab78d2e7d73d69beb3.jpg

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth
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14 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

How much more meat are going to remove from the drive sprocket?

Regards,

Alan

Hello Alan,

A lot more, took me the greater part of the day. Easy does it....

Regards,

Harm

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Today I finished the machine work on the large sprocket wheel. The balance gear is complete now,  except for the nuts to hold the pinion axles into the drums..... Can't find them 😟.

815524344_Allpartsofthebalancegearready.jpg.666ae5a9e7e5e2ba12d562b8ecc7dcc0.jpg

All Parts of the balance gear (except for the small axles for the pinions).

 

Next job is soldering the bronze gears on the axle parts HE36 and HE 37.

192206741_Rearaxle.jpg.25362e055090a7210629d68f512505cb.jpg

Drawing of rear axle.

 

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

Very nice update!  I am impressed with your drawing of the rear end assembly.  I do not have that skill set....:-(  My drawings are rough pencil sketch variety with the dimensions needed to make the part fully functional.  SO far I am luck that I have not had to do very many "redo's"!

Regards,

Alan

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Posted (edited)

Dear Alan and Mike,

Thank you very much, but is way too much honor for me. I copied the drawing from an catalog of 1902 "Hercules light Automobile Parts". I just "beefed up" the drawing, retraced some lines and removed some specs, that all. As soon as I have the problems with the scanner addressed (firmware update gone wrong), I will show more pictures of this catalog. This one covers the rear axle. I also have catalogs covering the brakes, front axle and wheel section. Years ago, they were for sale at Ebay, not for long,  I bought them all 😊.

The catalogs came from an agent: Hayden Eames, American trust Building, Cleveland, Ohio. They were agents for Westinghouse Electric and Mfg. Co., Pittsburg; Federal Mfg. Co., Cleveland Ohio and the Cleveland Axle Mfg. Co. Canton Ohio. Gentlemen, I am sorry for the confusion.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Hayden Eames (pronounced "Ames"...the "E" is silent. It is a very old name in Massachusetts) was an ex-US Navy ordinance officer. He inspected Colt revolvers for the navy (his initials can be found on the M1899 Colt Navy revolver) and was later assigned to the Bridgeport Projectile Company where he became very friendly with Hiram Percy Maxim. When he left the Navy he went to work for Col. Pope of Columbia Bicycle (and Pope Hartford, Pope Toledo etc.). He introduced Maxim to Pope and his general manager. Maixm (who was the son of Hiram Maxim, inventor of the Maxim gun) became the chief automotive designer for Pope. Eames later went to work for Studebaker and was instrumental in Studebaker's purchase of EMF. He was a very important, if little known, player in the early American Auto industry.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Hello Joe,

How successful has the trip been to the UK?  Nice background information regarding Hayden Eames.  It would certainly be interesting to know more of the "back story" of our early automobiles.

Regards,

Al

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