Sloth

1903 Cleveland Roadster project

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On 12/28/2019 at 5:34 PM, Mike Macartney said:

 

No need to Harm. I was just interested on how you went about the woodwork. The only woodwork I have been involved with was making the hoops (bows) for the hood (top) for my Humberette. Thanks for the photo of the other Crestmobile. I have saved it in my file. That car was on the London to Brighton run when Jane and I did it in 2012, although I did not get to talk to the owner. I haven't done the run since.

 

Hello Mike,

The story in your Humberette blog of your London Brighton Crestmobile experience is wonderful and very recognizable for Anna and me.

When Anna and I married, we went the other year to London. It was the first weekend in November, visiting theaters, Kew garden and some more.  We where not aware about the London to Brighton Run. But at Saturday evening we saw some (a lot) veteran cars appearing at the hotel. We asked what it was going on, and spent a very pleasant evening with some attendants . Sunday morning we set course to Hyde park.  It was freezing cold but dry, and we had a lot of fun. Watching the starting cars was something to be seen. After a while,  Anna tapped me on the shoulder and said: that is what I want to do some time in the future. Well, at that time, not fully aware the expense of such a pre-1905 car, the subject was brought to a rest for a very long time (we are now 42 years married 😊)... At the year 2001 we bought the remains of the Cleveland, and the rest is history as they say.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)

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Today, I spend with completing the mock-up (more or less 😉). It is a bit difficult to get the right form of the seats, only reference I have are the pictures of Roger Weiss's car, and a sales catalog picture. I made it with cheap plywood, leftover slats and some stiff paper (its floor protecting paper for painting walls etc., cheap and plentiful available).

 

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Side view of toneau seat

 

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Inside view of mock up construction

 

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Top view of toneau seat mock up.

Regards,

Harm

 

 

 

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Hello Harm,

What a nice start to your tonneau!  Will the back corners of your seat be built in the dame fashion as the back corners of your front seat?

Al

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15 hours ago, Sloth said:

Anna tapped me on the shoulder and said: that is what I want to do some time in the future.

 

. . . . and I am sure you will. Unfortunately, the price of these pre 1905 cars is out of all proportion to what they should be worth. Look at the much lower prices that 1905 onwards cars sell for and you will see what I mean. The London to Brighton run, in my opinion, has become rather elitist, if that is the correct word. From my limited experience of only entering on one occasion. It appeared that a number of entrants own cars that are prepared and looked after by specialist companies. The cars are taken to the start of the event by the specialist company. Another company moves the owners luggage to Brighton for the evening dinner and dance. It seems to have become one of the many things that the wealthy seem to need to be seen doing. I will now end my moaning!

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6 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

. . . . and I am sure you will. Unfortunately, the price of these pre 1905 cars is out of all proportion to what they should be worth. Look at the much lower prices that 1905 onwards cars sell for and you will see what I mean. The London to Brighton run, in my opinion, has become rather elitist, if that is the correct word. From my limited experience of only entering on one occasion. It appeared that a number of entrants own cars that are prepared and looked after by specialist companies. The cars are taken to the start of the event by the specialist company. Another company moves the owners luggage to Brighton for the evening dinner and dance. It seems to have become one of the many things that the wealthy seem to need to be seen doing. I will now end my moaning!

Hello Mike, unfortunately, I think you are right about the London to Brighton run. At the hotel, where we stayed this year (very near Hyde Park), on Sunday morning about 5 o clock, two very large lorries turned up. Both of them containing 6 or 8 pre 1905 cars, all were unloaded. Two or three owners in sight, further, only technicians.... Later on, at the start we recognized a few of the unloaded cars, most drivers were not the people who attended unloading the cars.... Its a pity, but I hope there are some real enthusiasts left, as you and I, who do most of the work them self.

Last weekend I spoke a friend who attended the LBR many times, but not 2018 and 2019. Mentioning the subject of the LBR, he told me, he considers the cost involved with attending the LBR outrageous. As he says, costs have exploded, he is a "well to do person" so money-wise no problem , but he feels its more and more becoming a commercial circus and does not want to be a part of it. But luckily for us, there are other pre 1905 events. But first I have to finish the restoration of the Cleveland. I retired at the first of June this year, and I must say, most days being in the shop, from 8 in the morning to 5 in the afternoon, gives me much pleasure and satisfaction. 

Regards,

Harm

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16 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

What a nice start to your tonneau!  Will the back corners of your seat be built in the dame fashion as the back corners of your front seat?

Al

Hello Al, not all the way, the rear panels of the toneau are straight, but tilted backwards. The edges will be 1/4 round as at the front seat. Today I made the first side panel, it is momentarily fixed in the die (big word for a simple wood form). Made the side panels of two layers, glued together, flexible plywood. Tomorrow I will see what has become of it.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Hello Harm,

You are certainly making good progress.  You will soon be building the rear door, jam structure and also be after the hinges and latch.  Have you located a source for those items yet?

Al

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14 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

You are certainly making good progress.  You will soon be building the rear door, jam structure and also be after the hinges and latch.  Have you located a source for those items yet?

Al

Hello Al,

Yes, its going well. I guess next week I will build the door.

One thing I am pondering about: how to fasten the toneau on the under frame. Any idea's about this?

Regards,

Harm

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Anna and I wish you all a Happy and Healthy New Year!

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Thanks Harm and Anna,  I hope your New years Celebration was just what you wanted.  We had a quite party this year, but a nice time.

On the mounting question.  Are you going to leave the tonneau permanently attached or design it to be removable?

Al

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, alsfarms said:

Thanks Harm and Anna,  I hope your New years Celebration was just what you wanted.  We had a quite party this year, but a nice time.

On the mounting question.  Are you going to leave the tonneau permanently attached or design it to be removable?

Al

Hi Al, I designed it, to be removable. Our Celebration was very quiet, as the whole northern part of the Netherlands was covered in a very thick fog. Code Red (severe weather) was issued by the authorities. Many car accidents, with a lot of wounded people and some fatalities. At some parts, you could not see whats 30 feet in front of you.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Hello Harm,

Whereas you plan to be able to remove and install a roadster type deck in the place of the tonneau, I would fabricate four brackets and maybe six (two for each side front and back and one each for each side of the rear door for stability if you see the need.  I would mount and leave these brackets permanently attached to the bottom of the tonneau.  When tonneau is removed I would use the same holes to mount the roadster deck in place (access may be a serious consideration as I am not sure how you plan to built the roadster deck).  If you have an access door for storage while running as a roadster, no issue as you would be able to access through the door.

Regards,

Al

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Last days I glued the side panels of the toneau. I laminated both of them from flexible plywood 9/32"  thick each, total thickness 9/16". Today I cut out  the toneau panels. I am happy with them, no splits in the wood caused by bending at a small radius.

 

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Wooden form for left side of toneau panel (outside view). This side will be used for forming the flexible plywood.

 

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Wooden form for toneau side panel, left side (inside view). 

 

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Left side toneau panel

 

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Right side of toneau panel

 

Furthermore, I started with cutting out the seat bases, make them from 1" thick ash.

Regards,

Harm

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You are certainly making good progress.  I am not at this time able to keep up with you!

Al

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Hi Harm, I think your method of bending the plywood with the jig you made is very clever. I have often wondered how plywood was bent. I assumed you had to glue it up in much thinner sections into a perfectly made mould. Mike (a metalwork man!)

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1 hour ago, Mike Macartney said:

Hi Harm, I think your method of bending the plywood with the jig you made is very clever. I have often wondered how plywood was bent. I assumed you had to glue it up in much thinner sections into a perfectly made mould. Mike (a metalwork man!)

 

Good morning Mike,

Thank you. Well, to be honest, several years ago I thought the same. So I made a perfect mold,  and used 1/16" aircraft quality triplex, which is expensive stuff. Then I ran into problems, I had to laminate 10 layers. The glue began to set after I had laminated 5 layers, still 5 layers left to do, long story short, it very soon it became a huge and expensive mess.  After a while, I spoke with an older gentlemen who used to build horse drawn coaches. He teached me what kind of flexible triplex to use and how to make simple molds for one time use, since then no scrap anymore, and no time consuming perfect molds to build.... just simple molds who are dimensional correct and with the right edges.  When you laminate  two or three layers of 9/32" (7 mm) flexible triplex, the end result is very stiff and keeps its form, after the glue hardens no form adjustments are possible. (for the Cleveland toneau and front seat, I used two layers).

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

I am anxious to see , once again, how you are going to build the rear corners of your tonneau and the back panel.  TI me this is a very important structural part of the body as each side is not structurally tied to the other side yet will potentially have someone sitting in it so it should be put together very soundly.  At least that is my take on the rear tonneau.  Your bending process is in fact very clever as per comments by Mike, (who is also a very clever fellow).  I may have missed something but describe your method for mixing and applying the glue to a large panel quickly and avoiding the set-up time limit of the glue.  Is the glue in powder form so you can mix only what you need at any given time?

Al

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21 hours ago, Sloth said:

Good morning Mike,

Thank you. Well, to be honest, several years ago I thought the same. So I made a perfect mold, 

 

Many thanks Harm for such an excellent explanation. The "huge expensive mess" reminded me of my first ever attempt at making a glass fibre hardtop for a car back in 1970. I came back the next morning to find, a half gone off sticky heap of glass mat and resin, it put me off GRP for some time.

Even your 'simple mold' must take a lot of thought in where to place the wood for the mold and how the edges should be. Another good example of the skill and experience of some of these old coach builders and wheelwrights who learnt their trades over many years.

Thank you again Harm for your interesting posts and answers to my questions.

Best regards

Mike 

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On 1/3/2020 at 5:10 PM, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

I am anxious to see , once again, how you are going to build the rear corners of your tonneau and the back panel.  TI me this is a very important structural part of the body as each side is not structurally tied to the other side yet will potentially have someone sitting in it so it should be put together very soundly.  At least that is my take on the rear tonneau.  Your bending process is in fact very clever as per comments by Mike, (who is also a very clever fellow).  I may have missed something but describe your method for mixing and applying the glue to a large panel quickly and avoiding the set-up time limit of the glue.  Is the glue in powder form so you can mix only what you need at any given time?

Al

Hello Al,

The rear corners of the tonneau will be build on the same way as the corners of the front seat. The coming days I will continue with the building process, so you can expect some pictures, of the progress. Furthermore, to increase the structural strength of the tonneau seat back and side panels, I will add some steel brackets.

Glue: in earlier days I used phenol resorcinol formaldehyde glue, wonderful stuff, but I became very allergic to it. Instead, I use Bostik PK 75, a pasty polyurethane stuff, dispensed from a tube. It does not foam as regular polyurethane. One has about 5 minutes to apply it, after that time it starts slowly to set. Fully hardened in about 24 hour. What I do is making sure that every thing needed is ready, and lays neatly within reach on a flat surface. Mold  is clean and ready, clamping boards clean and ready, and so on. Than I start to put the glue in thick rolls on the surface of one board and use a large putty knife ( 5" width) to spread it very fast and evenly on the board. Then put the board on the mold, put the other board on it (first time right, no adjustment possible) and clamp everything together. Today I did a little experiment, got the whole procedure fixed within 4 minutes and 20 seconds . The dimensions of the boards are 4' 2" x 2' each. One advantage of the PK 75, no extreme clamping force is needed. But one warning, be careful with this glue, it sticks on everything and removing is a quiet a chore😡 (some experiences in life I can live without, this was one of them...).

Regards,

Harm

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Hello harm,

It is my guess that you have a "mail" and "female" to your glue up jig in order to evenly push those pieces to be glued into place and hold them until the glue is set?  Do you leave the panel to be glued in place until dry or just set?  The last time I did serious any gluing and wood work, I used a powder glue that was brushable .  I do not recall what it was but I seem to recall that it was a marine type glue.  Does your caulking gun glue spread nicely with the 5" trowel?  How much pressure do you use to spread out the glue?  Do you end up with a coating of glue 1/32" thick for your glue up?  I ask these rather simply questions as I have a very similar building process in my future, hopefully sooner than later.  None of us are getting any younger!

Al

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1 hour ago, alsfarms said:

I ask these rather simply questions as I have a very similar building process in my future, hopefully sooner than later.

 

Al, do you have posts on your projects? I have been looking, but I only see the occasional Locomobile post, am I missing your main postings on the other vehicles? Mike

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Thanks Al, I have now replied to your PM. I had forgotten all about using the PM - sorry Harm.

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4 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello harm,

It is my guess that you have a "mail" and "female" to your glue up jig in order to evenly push those pieces to be glued into place and hold them until the glue is set?  Do you leave the panel to be glued in place until dry or just set?  The last time I did serious any gluing and wood work, I used a powder glue that was brushable .  I do not recall what it was but I seem to recall that it was a marine type glue.  Does your caulking gun glue spread nicely with the 5" trowel?  How much pressure do you use to spread out the glue?  Do you end up with a coating of glue 1/32" thick for your glue up?  I ask these rather simply questions as I have a very similar building process in my future, hopefully sooner than later.  None of us are getting any younger!

Al

Hello Al,

Thursday I will show with pictures how I did it (that is much easier explaining how the process looks like).

Regards,

Harm

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Posted (edited)

Today, not much work done on the Cleveland toneau. This morning I received a box with  led lamps. Started replacing the older fluorescent shop lamps with led lamps. Not a difficult task, but there are 12 double armatures in the shop, hanging 12 feet high 😓.  Further more, I have to remove the starter and the electronic load from the existing armature, and replace these by two wires, not difficult, but time consuming.  But it has the advantage that I can leave the armature in place. As the shop momentarily is a big mess (building the Cleveland body) , it takes time to re shuffle every thing so I can reach the armatures.

The reason for the replacement is an easy one. First, as I am getting older (but not much wiser 😇), I need light, lots of it! After my retirement, I am roughly  7 hours a day in the shop, that means 7 times 24 lights times 36 Watt  equals to 6 kWh a day.  Using led lights it will decrease to about 2.5 kWh. Electrical power is $ 0.285  per kWh, so I save $ 1.00 a day. Replacing just one fluorescent lamp cost $ 9.50 each, so within 8 months they have payed for themselves (mathematically correct, but never the less, I think it will be a year, which is OK).

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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