Sloth

1903 Cleveland Roadster project

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Hello Harm,

It has been a day or three, what is your latest determination on repairing the engine casting?

Al

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Posted (edited)

I discussed the matter with some brass car friends and engine shop owners. Most of them opted for welding... but the more I heard and read about it, the less I liked it. As Ed stated no welding or brazing and right he is! I also tried to contact by telephone, the gentleman Ed advised, but to no avail. So, after a lot of searching on the web I stumbled on ...... (no idea if it is allowed to name the company), I send them an email with some pictures and asked if the repair could be done by myself. I got a reply of Jeff (service manager) and asked some detailed information. Long story short, I will take on the repair by myself, and they will send me all the tools and stuff and  I will need to repair this engine. I already got a detailed drawing and instructions of the repair sequence. I know, it is not cheap, but sending  the engine to the USA and getting it back isn't cheap either (to say the least). I must admit I am looking forward to it.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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It is pretty clear fro the work you've done already that you are a careful as well as skilled workman. I think 98% of the errors people make come from rushing a job...so good luck and I'll be interested to see how it comes out.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Hello Harm,

As you get yourself primed and ready to do this "pin" repair, please be real thorough with pictures so we can watch as your proceed and learn.  You never know when any of us will be confronted with a similar dilemma.  I have seen some information on do this type of repair at home and also think with a degree of patience and  with following the repair method to a "T", you will be successful.

Regards,

Al

Edited by alsfarms
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12 hours ago, Sloth said:

. . . . but sending  the engine to the USA and getting it back isn't cheap either . . . .

 

Plus, the chance of the parcel going missing, which is sometimes a possibility. I look forward to reading about and seeing photos of the process.

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Harm, your capabilities are endless and I look forward to seeing how you progress on this phase of your project. Best wishes! Do well.

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Posted (edited)

I think that if I were going to attempt this on an otherwise irreplaceable part, I'd look around for another cracked iron casting to try it out on. I've found that with a new process, if I'm going to make an error, I do it at the beginning. With a little practice there are far fewer errors.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

I think that if I were going to attempt this on an otherwise irreplaceable part, I'd look around for another cracked iron casting to try it out on. I've found that with a new process, if I'm going to make an error, I do it at the beginning. With a little practice there are far fewer errors.

 

 

I agree 100 percent. The commercial products available are NOT always a good fix/fit. My guy makes his own screws and bow ties........with different material, different threads, ect.............the learning curve to become a craftsman at stitching is huge.......think 7 years full time. Also, sharp drills by the handful are a must. And how you sharpen them makes a difference on how they track into the metal. Usually my guy sets up 20....yes 20 air drills and several power tappers when he starts to work. Also, when I had a block checked at my local shop for cracks.....we found two.......for a total of about five inches. The stitcher found SEVEN ...........his magna flux machine is the size of a small truck............ to be perfectly honest, I would send it to a full time stitcher....not a shop that has a guy who does it two or three times a year. There is no going backwards, and you can see this block has been unsuccessfully repaired by a tractor mechanic in the past. Be ready to make a new block...............thats why I recommended only using my guy.......I get nothing out of it but the satisfaction that he is the best in the world...........he fixes things for the US government and things like the gate valves on the Hoover Dam.............he is that good. 

 

Also stitcher should have a "farm" of old engines and castings to use as cut up's for material in all different shapes..........often times you need to replace a part of a casting with another..........it's a better repair. The twice a year guys just won't have a clue. 

 

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Harm,

 

Do you have photos that show the all of the cylinder block from various angles? Out of curiosity I am trying to figure out how complex

a casting it is and how difficult replicating it would be if repairs are unsuccessful.

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I would like photos also.........I estimate I could make one for 60-80 thousand finished..........and would need a years time...........and that price does not include multiple attempts to get a single good casting and could easily go higher.......thats why a good repair by the best guy is a bargin.

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On 6/17/2020 at 10:17 AM, Mike Macartney said:

 

Plus, the chance of the parcel going missing, which is sometimes a possibility. I look forward to reading about and seeing photos of the process.

Hello Mike,

Yes, that happened to me about 8 years ago. At a swap meet, I bought a Splitdorf type A (very early and rare) magneto, but not working. So I contacted a gentleman in the USA to restore it, and send the magneto with a well know shipping company to him. The shipping company managed to lose it...., they could not trace where it was etc. To this day I am still angry about their handling of the case 😡. The man who would restore the magneto told me, that it happened before.

Regards,

Harm

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Hello gentlemen,

Thank you for your comments and encouragement.  Before I take on the stitching of the Cleveland engine, I will try it out on a cracked block. If I do not feel save with the process I will stop and thinking again what to do. About the pictures, yes during the stitching process  I will make and publish a lot of them. 

To Edinmass, point taken.

To Terry and Ed, I don't have detailed pictures of the engine block. Coming Sunday I plan to make lots of pictures, and will send them to you by PM?

 

Today I received the Babbitt bearing material from Germany and also the repair parts for the NH carburetor from the USA. Each took just 5 days to arrive, to me it seems that the shipping of goods goes better and faster than it did some months ago at the beginning of the Corona crisis.

Regards,

Harm

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Can a new part be machined instead of cast?  With all the machining capabilities out there you would figure it could be done. Good luck.

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15 hours ago, edinmass said:

I would like photos also.........I estimate I could make one for 60-80 thousand finished..........and would need a years time...........and that price does not include multiple attempts to get a single good casting and could easily go higher.......thats why a good repair by the best guy is a bargin.

 

Have I been stupid with my having castings made for my early Perks & Birch and Singer Motor wheels? On the very early 1899 design, the barrel was actually missing, so I had no choice but to have one cast. 

 

The pattern making, for both barrels, was the most expensive part (I seem to remember about £900). The actual casting  of the barrels was around £100 (it may have been less). Should I have had more castings cast at the time and had them crack tested? To date, most of the machining has been completed on the early barrel (right in the photo) before I got waylaid by restoring some cars that just happened to turn up.

 

IMG_2062.thumb.JPG.6b8b7d6d9a35ba95846a5a37463ad0f2.JPG

 

The patterns and castings for my early motor wheel engines.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Laughing Coyote said:

Can a new part be machined instead of cast?  With all the machining capabilities out there you would figure it could be done. Good luck.

Well, I guess it is possible, but -in my opinion- that would be quite a job to take on. On the other hand, the engine block itself is not complicated.

Regards,

Harm

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4 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

Have I been stupid with my having castings made for my early Perks & Birch and Singer Motor wheels? On the very early 1899 design, the barrel was actually missing, so I had no choice but to have one cast. 

 

The pattern making, for both barrels, was the most expensive part (I seem to remember about £900). The actual casting  of the barrels was around £100 (it may have been less). Should I have had more castings cast at the time and had them crack tested? To date, most of the machining has been completed on the early barrel (right in the photo) before I got waylaid by restoring some cars that just happened to turn up.

 

The patterns and castings for my early motor wheel engines.

 

 

Hello Mike,

That are really nice patterns and castings, I am impressed :wub: I really love this kind of work!

Making a pattern of the Cleveland engine block does not seem too complicated. Its a simple straightforward engine, no hidden cavities. Could be reproduced without much trouble. The only thing which needs improvement, is the thickness of the deck. Its 3/16", and that is a bit on the thin side, I would go for 1/4" or 5/16". The threaded holes for the head studs don't have much meat on them either, improving that is easily done.

Regards,

Harm

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Mike Macartney said:

 

Have I been stupid with my having castings made for my early Perks & Birch and Singer Motor wheels? On the very early 1899 design, the barrel was actually missing, so I had no choice but to have one cast. 

 

The pattern making, for both barrels, was the most expensive part (I seem to remember about £900). The actual casting  of the barrels was around £100 (it may have been less). Should I have had more castings cast at the time and had them crack tested? To date, most of the machining has been completed on the early barrel (right in the photo) before I got waylaid by restoring some cars that just happened to turn up.

 

IMG_2062.thumb.JPG.6b8b7d6d9a35ba95846a5a37463ad0f2.JPG

 

The patterns and castings for my early motor wheel engines.

 

 

 

Mike those castings look great! Considering the time that goes into developing and fabricating the patterns and core boxes the price you paid seems very reasonable.

Are the patterns 3D printed or traditional? Very nice!

 

 

 

Edited by Terry Harper (see edit history)
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Hello Harm, Terry and Mike,

This side f our Hobby is very interesting and is very much a part of what we all do.  I do think the pin repair is a good resolution, but should that not end up satisfactory, it may be a longer road but a doable project to have a new casting made.

Al

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They are traditional wooden patterns made by a retired pattern maker. He liked to bet on the horse racing that was televised on Saturday afternoons. To give him money to bet with, he did some pattern making for a few vehicle enthusiasts. I presume his gambling was not as successful as his pattern making! 

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Mike,

 

I love it! Many times the backstory is as interesting as the main story itself!

 

T.

 

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25 minutes ago, jan arnett (2) said:

Hello Jan,

Yes, actually I did. At my former work (aerospace contract research) we did a lot of 3D printing, mostly used it for fast prototyping activities. Well metal printing; let me say, using metal printing wasn't exactly budget friendly..... Another challenge is making the right 3D drawings suitable for metal printing, not budget friendly either. Another department than mine, operated several of those machines, the operators where very skilled high end engineers. I must admit, we needed several exotic metal powders, those are huge cost drivers. One of the biggest advantages of metal printing for my department was, that one could print shapes, who could not be manufactured by conventional machining. For example: complex curves inside a "'semi hidden" cavity or many layers of  very small tubes (0.01" diameter). But, mostly, on the end of a project, I had some to explain to the "higher management". At home I have a 3D printer for PVC, ABS etc. filament. A very nice extension of the shop I must say.

Regards,

Harm

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When pouring large cast iron castings...........you need to consider many more issues than you would on the small cycle cylinders we see above........which, by the way, look fantastic. Biggest problem is on a large casting you need to adapt the pattern for the particular foundry line that is pouring the iron. And trust me, the foundry has very different ideas of what they want, than the people making the patterns. I have done a series of very large castings and sold all of them, and all were successful. This is back before auto cad days.........when there were still talented pattern makers above ground. So once you get past a pattern design that is ok with the foundry.......you need to consider how many castings you make in the event of issues, or someone making a machine error. I agree the engine on the Cleveland is a simple one, but making a few castings are anything but simple..........more people cast junk that isn't even worth working with because they are too cheap or lazy to do it right the first time. 

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Lately, my neighbors (who only cast aluminum) have been getting some one-off jobs where the sand mold is created in a 3D printer. I saw a description of the process some years ago being used for rapid prototyping (and VERY expensive) but since then it apparently has started to become commercially viable. Of course, the computer skills involved are probably as demanding as real pattern making but going forward I suspect this method will be become much more viable.

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