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1903 Cleveland Roadster project


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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, bob staehle said:

Our local wallmart has plenty of latex gloves  you just have to pick them up in the parking lot

Even then, it will probably cost you an arm and a leg???😄

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Today, I got all the engine parts together (in one box) 😄. As far as I know, no missing parts (no pictures today, battery of Iphone AND camera empty). Even found the bearings of the crankshaft: large bronze bushings. I wonder if these bronze bushings are original, Cadillac and Oldsmobile used Babbitt. What to do, make Babbitt bushings, or use the bronze bushings? Gentlemen, whats your opinion?

Regards,

Harm

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There were several early manufacturers that used bronze bearings. Mathewson was one...I have a 1908 or 1909 two volume book on automobile design that lists the specifications for many of the popular makes at the time, including the bearing material for the crankshaft and I was surprised at how many used bronze. So, I don't think it's out of the question that what you have is what it came with. If I were a gambling sort of person I might try it myself...

 

 

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21 hours ago, JV Puleo said:

There were several early manufacturers that used bronze bearings. Mathewson was one...I have a 1908 or 1909 two volume book on automobile design that lists the specifications for many of the popular makes at the time, including the bearing material for the crankshaft and I was surprised at how many used bronze. So, I don't think it's out of the question that what you have is what it came with. If I were a gambling sort of person I might try it myself...

 

 

Hello Joe,

Thanks for your answer, but the last sentence did it.... As I am not a gambling person, I won't take any risks with this engine. So I go for the age proven Babbitt solution.

Regards,

Harm

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This afternoon, I received the new top leaves of the springs. As the old top leaves showed deficiencies (crack) at the eyes, I decided to have new ones made.

 

Veerbladen.jpg.f9858457301c7d89904d76cc188f56a3.jpg

New top leaves. Bottom two are the rear leaves, top two are the front leaves.

 

Tomorrow, I will clean and paint them (only the visible parts).

 

Regards,

Harm

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Posted (edited)

As the outside temperature was to low (50F) to paint the spring leaves, I decided to take on another job. Putting tires on the wheels. So I lit the stove to warm the tires, and managed to put the tires on the rims. Took some brute force to get the job done (clincher tires 😓). To put it mildly, the tires were quite stiff, but to be honest, I bought them in 2009. Some paint touch up of the rims must be done, but I am satisfied with the result, milestone achieved ☺️.

 

576586836_Wiel1.jpg.20a026d23beb173644657f3bed8e1be0.jpg

First wheel done.

 

1194979177_Wiel4.jpg.980a653377a6413a303a78b238f622dd.jpg

All 4 wheels done.

 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth
lost a part of the first sentence (see edit history)
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Hello Harm,

Nice work on the tire mounting.  I bet you slept better that night for sure.  I hope you didn't learn any new vocabulary words as you arm wrestled with the tires!

Regards,

Alan

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On 5/16/2020 at 1:06 AM, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

Nice work on the tire mounting.  I bet you slept better that night for sure.  I hope you didn't learn any new vocabulary words as you arm wrestled with the tires!

Regards,

Alan

Hello Alan,

No bad language used. I know from earlier experience,  mounting clincher tires on rims can be a tiresome job..... So I took my time and asked Anna to assist me. The tires are still holding air,  but for the chips of the paint, everything is OK.

Last Tuesday our government told us that the quarantine measures are going to be relaxed, step by step that is. So we are going slowly back to a more or less normal way of living. Yesterday, our health authorities announced a still decreasing number of deaths and people being hospitalized. Anna and I haven't seen our family and friends for 2 months now...😞

Regards,

Harm

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The last time I mounted clincher tires was last summer.....an 82 F. sunny day which really softened up the tires. I could almost mount them with my hands and knees!  I did use very hard plastic tire spoons (for bicycles) and did not scratch the rims but did leave some marks. 
We have not seen family/friends for two months also.....things are still going backwards here so no end in sight yet. Fortunately we have cyber connections  and a never ending list of things to do around home. Looking forward to better times and to see what the new normal is. Take care and be safe!

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Hello Harm,

What is next?  Assembly of the suspension?  I failed to respond to your question/thought on babbitt versus bronze for bearings.  I think you have leaned in the right direction by doing the babbitt process!  I am anxious to watch as you proceed with the mechanics!

 

Hello Jeff,

Are you, in Mn., having typical weather....rain to keep your 10,000 lakes full and a breeding ground for your huge mosquito's?  It looks like you are well versed on Fords.  What is you latest project?  How hard hit is Minnestoa on the Coronavirus Pandemic? 

Al

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Posted (edited)

Hello Alan,

Today I started with turning 14 spring bolts. I use 4140 bar, I have a nice piece of it laying around for years now. I will use it in the normalized state, so no hardening afterwards. Further I ordered some bronze bar to make the spring bushings from. I hope that everything is ready at the end of this week. Just one caveat, for the coming days the weather-forecast predicts high temperatures ( 82 F) and no wind, would be to hot after 13:00hr in the shop for lathe work (no air-co 😁). 

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Today, I completed the 'production' of the 14 spring bolts. Made them out of an 1" round 4140 bar. Dimensions of the bolts, 3"long, pin size 1/2", head size  7/8", screw thread UNC 3/8". Made a lot of chips, took quite some time to finish the bolts. I will use square headed nuts. Further not much to report, still waiting for the bronze bar.

 

1042209628_Springbolts2.jpg.f0e9189b17d527b38ebea4149cb53cd2.jpg

Spring bolts, the two bolts on the right are used for the front spring perches.

 

569301487_Springbolts1.jpg.80c46d4d451d232b7d2b70465319fa22.jpg

The two bolts on the left are used for the front spring perches, different dimensions and head.

 

850832658_Springboltheaddetail.jpg.6c87ba0f78a7ee8d9059144e9e9a7da5.jpg

Detail picture of spring bolt and part of a spring shackle.

 

Next week I hope to paint the bolt heads the square nuts and the new spring leaves. Also I want to assemble the rear axle, everything is painted now, maybe some simple striping of the rear axle would be period correct.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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4 minutes ago, JV Puleo said:

Nice job... how did you put the slots in?

 

 

Hello Joe, just for the fun of it, I put them in with the shaper. I know, not efficient (time consuming set up) but I like it very much to use the shaper 😁.

Regards,

Harm

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Excellent! I think that was a really good idea and heck, even if it's a complicated setup you had a bunch of them to do and they came out perfect. I'll always put a good job ahead of a fast job. Soon enough you forget how long it took but you'll never forget it if they don't come out right. I have a shaper/planer that is in almost unused condition but even though it's been in the shop for better than a year I still haven't put the motor back on it. I will when I need it and then I'll be kicking myself for not having done it sooner.

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Hello Harm.

Nice build on the spring pins.  Your paint striping has encouraged me to look around and get me a striping gizmo.  This has been and is a very busy spring for me.  I don't see my time crunch settling down any time soon.  We are eating native asparagus now and that is certainly one blessing of living here.  What is the next endeavor for you in the yard and on the Cleveland?

Regards,

Alan 

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4 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm.

Nice build on the spring pins.  Your paint striping has encouraged me to look around and get me a striping gizmo.  This has been and is a very busy spring for me.  I don't see my time crunch settling down any time soon.  We are eating native asparagus now and that is certainly one blessing of living here.  What is the next endeavor for you in the yard and on the Cleveland?

Regards,

Alan 

Hello Alan,

Thanks for your kind words, very busy at the farm?

By coincidence, Anna bought asparagus too. I like them very much, with cheese sauce with a few slices of ham (1/4" 😁).

The next job will be turning the bronze bushes for the springs, but I am still waiting for the bronze rod to be delivered.

Yard work, yes some. The patio (20' x 20') next to the farm could use new pavers, so to day Anna and I started removing the old and worn concrete pavers. As we both are not 20 any more, it wore us out.... But that part of the job is finished.

Regards,

Harm

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Posted (edited)

Dear gentlemen, I have a question about the  carburetor I planned to use at the Cleveland engine. I must admit, I have no idea what kind of carburetor Cleveland used originally. Years ago I bought a carburetor at Ebay, its in remarkable good condition. But there is no manufacturers name on it, just some (part?) numbers. It has a float, air is (partially) controlled through a slit with a rotating tube on the inside of the carburetor. It fits very well on the engine head, screws right in... Furthermore, its made of bronze, and as such quite heavy. I have never seen such a carburetor again and can't find anything about it on the web. Also no description of it in my books.

Question: does any of you know what carburetor this is? Is it 1903 period correct or of a much later date?

 

Here are some pictures of the carburetor.

 

1318404924_Bottomview.thumb.jpg.8ab708e1e1975a0c10c09643aeb3acc3.jpg

Bottom view

 

622857665_Sideview1.thumb.jpg.786d14728951560efbda6690eff2750e.jpg

Side view with the small plunger to push the float down (choke function?) Number on upper casting: 71.

 

902888416_Sideview2.thumb.jpg.81c0ee52e18de008561ec0bcad37a7a8.jpg

Front view numbers on castings are 82, 70 and 71.

 

1906783825_Sideview4.thumb.jpg.49b4feb9c1d0708630ee6aac26218571.jpg

Side view with glass tube, the upper lever is a bit bent...

 

Side view 3.jpg

Side view with air slit in upper casting

 

463537537_Topview.thumb.jpg.60a7da3d56dc00008ef71f2780376f35.jpg

Bottom view

 

If it would make identification easier, I can disassemble the carburetor and make detail pictures, and publish them tomorrow. Just let me know.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

Edited by Sloth
Corrected text and pictures (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Hello Harm,

I have a very good friend in Norwalk Ohio USA who is very knowledgeable about early carburetors and carbs in general. His name is Tim Morsher and his email address Is TMorsher@icloud.com. He would welcome an inquiry about your carburetor. Please mention that I passed along his contact. Best of Luck, Jeff P.

ps. Asparagus is plentiful this year, have picked several pounds wild. However, the morel mushrooms are rare this spring......

Edited by Jeff Perkins / Mn (see edit history)
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19 hours ago, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

Hello Harm,

I have a very good friend in Norwalk Ohio USA who is very knowledgeable about early carburetors and carbs in general. His name is Tim Morsher and his email address Is TMorsher@icloud.com. He would welcome an inquiry about your carburetor. Please mention that I passed along his contact. Best of Luck, Jeff P.

ps. Asparagus is plentiful this year, have picked several pounds wild. However, the morel mushrooms are rare this spring......

Hello Jeff,

Thank you very much, today I certainly will send mr. Morsher an email. You have wild asparagus growing in the neighborhood? Will not happen here..... With a lot of effort we can grow them, but there is a lot of manual labor involved.

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

Some do not like asparagus at all and some of us consider it a blessing.  It grows native and wild here in the mountain west of the US.   I must admit, later in the season it gets a bit annoying to walk down a ditch or canal bank and am required to climb through a maze of 4' tall asparagus that has gone to seed.....but I put up with it!    I am also interested to learn what you can about your mystery carburetor.

Regards,

Al 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Harm,

What is the new developments on the Cleveland?  Are you able to identify the carb. you showed above?

Regards,

Alan

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Posted (edited)

Last days I got distracted from the Cleveland, lots of small tings to do around the house. We  finished the paving of the patio. We had a very nice temperature last days  82F (28C), but we could use some rain. It has not rained since 15 March, so the grass is turning yellow and brown.

About the carburetor, I got some PM's, but nobody knows what carburetor it is. I got some good advice from a knowledgeable owner of one and two cylinder cars. He advised me to use a Ford HN  carburetor ( a late one 1920 - 1926), they are simple and reliable, after you know the behavior and particularities of the Cleveland engine switch to  a Schebler model D. The Schebler is a very good carburetor and period correct. So that is the advice I will follow. When I bought the Cleveland, a restorable NH carburetor was included in the pile of parts, I could not understand, why. But now I know. Yesterday I ordered spare parts at Lang's. The Schebler is no problem, I have one with the guillotine control, not with the butterfly.  As far as I can see, my Schebler is in a good condition. No missing parts and no bend levers, only the needle valve control broke, but that an easy repair.

 

590156382_Schebler1902.jpg.c955ef96568ba89902f2eccc243029a5.jpg

Schebler model D, patented 1902

 

Yesterday and today, I did a lot of striping, the chassis, springs and front and rear axle are striped now. See pictures below.

1659344321_Springstriping1.thumb.jpg.38cb54ba7b77db3b22269cf7468072e8.jpg

Spring striping process, picture 1.

 

153785476_Springstriping2.thumb.jpg.2986bceb96a6945f097ff447878c10ea.jpg

Spring striping process, picture 2.

 

In between, I turned the period correct square head spring clip bolts and nuts. No metric treads on this car, just UNC and some UNF, mostly UNC thread is used.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

 

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, alsfarms said:

Hello Harm,

What is the new developments on the Cleveland?  Are you able to identify the carb. you showed above?

Regards,

Alan

Hello Alan,

Got a bit distracted by "house and farm" work. But in between I managed to spend a bit of time on the Cleveland. Well the carburetor, got some PM's but no one knows what it is, the mystery continues...

Regards,

Harm

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Posted (edited)
On 6/5/2020 at 3:58 AM, Jeff Perkins / Mn said:

Hello Harm, what did Tim M. have to offer for an opinion?

Hello Jeff, Tim did not recognize the carburetor, but he thinks its 1908-ish.That is because of the glass tube on de side of the bowl. He asked a friend who is a carburetor dealer, it tuned out that even he had no idea what carburetor it is. Tim advised me to use a Holley NH carburetor at first, and after the engine runs OK for some time, use the Schebler model D. He told me that a lot of owners of 1 and 2 cylinder cars use the Holley NH carburetor. It seems a sound advice and I am grateful for it. When I bought the Cleveland a Holley carburetor came with it. To restore the NH carburetor I ordered the spare parts at Lang's model T parts.

Jeff thank you for your help to ask Tim for his opinion, Tim set me on the right direction.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Hello Harm,

How close are you to doing the assembly of the Cleveland?  Still more to do before?  If you get a chance, show us the finished patio.

Regards,

Al 

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Started today with the assembly of the rear springs at the chassis. Did not get a lot done, to many distractions.... My caliper gave up the ghost (1/32" offset at zero on the display), resulting in 3 wrong spring bronze bushings 😡, sigh. Just one of those days I guess.

At last we got some rain, still more to come, we are very happy with it. Last month  it was warm and very dry, ground water level decreased to a record low level. Farmers are worrying about their harvest now.

 

276924593_Rearspringrightside1.jpg.fc5e472edbb1904f8d6534f987cd2bc7.jpg

Rear spring Right side 1

 

696507712_Rearspringrightside2.jpg.a6685b2ce2604dad6feb84a364c04416.jpg

Picture of rear spring right side 2

 

Regards,

Harm

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Today I got a lot accomplished, all 4 springs are mounted on the chassis now. Further the front axle is mounted on the springs. So far so good.

 

744408143_Chassis1.thumb.jpg.6b05d7d3dd852be1d8644d9fa36eb098.jpg

Chassis rear side

 

1928876306_Chassiswithfrontaxle.thumb.jpg.e04bb04a819b0e75845efde4a2b001ca.jpg

Chassis front side with front axle

 

Whats not so good: I cleaned and inspected the engine more closely than I ever did, and was shocked...... see pictures.

617303134_Scheurinbuitenzijdemotor.thumb.jpg.2f472ad3c8e66e61c193e4172fac975e.jpg

A crack on the outside between the two holes for cooling water inlet and outlet, with evidence somebody tried to weld it.

 

136726321_Scheurinkopvlakmotor.thumb.jpg.584f1dfc905b19b2256cc668ca6a2b55.jpg

And two cracks on the top side of the engine, one clearly visible and one hairline crack from the top to the bolt hole, it seems that that spot was welded.

 

Well what to do, pinning looks out of the question. So welding with the appropriate precautions (pre heating and slow cooling) or brazing is all that is left. At the moment I don't know what to do. Gentlemen what repair method would you advice in this case?

Regards,

Harm

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Hello Harm,

Well it sounds like some good news and some not so good news.  Is it possible to do a combination of pinning and Ni welding?

Regards,

Al

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Do NOT weld that engine. Stitch it. Since it irreplaceable, I recommend only one person. I would ship it to the guy in the states. One mistake and it’s trash......if they already didn’t ruin it when they tried welding it last time.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, edinmass said:

Do NOT weld that engine. Stitch it. Since it irreplaceable, I recommend only one person. I would ship it to the guy in the states. One mistake and it’s trash......if they already didn’t ruin it when they tried welding it last time.

Hello Ed, thank you for your recommendation. Got several PM's, all telling me not to weld the cracks. Today, I contacted a car club member who repairs cracked engines for a living (tractor pulling and the larger inboard speed boat engines, that kind of stuff). He does a lot of stitching, he asked me to measure the thickness of the cracked parts. Well, the top has a thickness of 1/8" max, and the side may be 3/16" max. He told me bluntly to forget the stitching, there must be more "meat" to make it successful. He suggested to braze the cracks, although its an old school method, he uses it for brazing with bronze for thin wall cast iron repairs. I am amazed about the wall thickness, very thin to my idea.

I ordered a crack penetration set (cleaner, dye and developer) to make the cracks better visible especially the hairline crack(s) in the already welded part.

To be continued.

Regards,

Harm

Edited by Sloth (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

It probably can be stitched and then locktite vacuum sealed. There Is a stitcher in the US who only does stitching. Nothing else for fifty years. He has only turned away one engine in the twenty five years I have been working with him. He recently did an engine on  one of the top ten most expensive cars on the planet. Since you engine is so small, it would be easy to ship to him. You could probably get a phone conversation with him if you send detailed photos, my bet is he can fix it. Do NOT add heat to that block for any reason, or it will continue to crack. If you place it in an oven and then attempt to repair it, the entire casting will warp. Sometimes after coming out of the oven you can save the casting, other times you can’t. If it were mine, I would make the effort to send it to my guy for an in person inspection. You only have the shipping cost to lose. Brazing will usually close thr crack you have, and then end up with a larger one along side the repair. I recommend extreme caution, and pursue multiple ways to fix it without heat. 
 

PS- He did a Cadillac V-16 block for us with 78 inches of cracks, including the head that was broken in two. That was 25 years ago, and the car is running fine, and no problems with the repairs.

 

 

 

 

74F40671-5EA4-434A-BA96-F8759CD9DB37.png

Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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On 6/6/2020 at 4:51 PM, Sloth said:

Gentlemen what repair method would you advice in this case?

 

Harm,

 

My father-in-law had a specialist welding and hard facing company. When I had a car with a cracked cast iron engine block, he gave me some arc welding rods that were, I believe,  phosphor bronze, he sold them mainly for building up ships propeller blades. They worked a treat on my cracked 4-cylinder engine block, without any preheating. That was a long time ago in the 1970's. I will be interested to read suggestions by other followers of your post.

 

Mike

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Posted (edited)

I have to endorse Ed's opinion on this. The bottom line, to me, is that welding or brazing may work and may also leave you with a really unrepairable part. Stitching will work...an my understanding is that Ed's source won't accept the job unless he can do it. You could use the dye to identify the cracks and send him pictures and a comprehensive description of the casting - like the wall thickness etc. I'm guessing he'll say he can do it and from all I've heard when he does a job it stays done. The shipping will be a killer but not as bad as making a new crankcase.

Edited by JV Puleo
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Posted (edited)

I'll add that Millbury is just up the road from me...if you can save some money by shipping it to an industrial address you can ship it to me and I'll deliver it.

 

jp

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

Today I got the rear axle and wheels at the chassis, I am quite happy. First I made two special spanners, one for the adjustable bearing race (right) and another one for the adjustable bearing race lock-nut left. Both spanners made life much easier.

 

Spanners.thumb.jpg.e47ee77a1a0c2e42b74b9a4d07bc0c3c.jpg

Special spanners

 

1123456902_Rearaxle2.jpg.fa801461d6e27ab9c0d7a3fcd613bf4a.jpg

Rear axle picture 1

 

69161905_Rearaxle1.jpg.bd8d8c98dcdd9cd1245adb34ce865b79.jpg

Rear axle picture 2

 

Asked several shipping companies the cost of shipping the engine block, (including the crate, a total of 81 pound) to the USA, lowest €484,- / $549,- highest €791,- / $897,-. I am waiting for the crack dye, after applying it to the engine and getting a better idea whats wrong, I will decide what to do. But gentlemen, rest assured, no welding and no brazing! 😉 Last evening and the better part of the night, I surfed the web for cast iron repairs. Saw some really horrible "repairs" and some results of welding with spider web cracks all over the place. Also, some very neat repairs (welded or brazed). Most of the neatest repairs where done by metal stitching. Learned a lot.....

 

Some philosophical thoughts about the cracks in the engine:

To me they looked like freezing cracks, or heat cracks (heat and rapid cooling). I wondered, when would the freezing of my engine  have occurred? When the engine was still part of a functioning car, during the first years of 1900? Or when it was put aside "as an old run down car" after -lets say-  1910 or so? The engine cylinder wall looks like new, no ridges, not out of round and not rusty at all, same for the piston, so to my opinion, not a "many miles" engine. As I understand, the engine and some parts that came later with it, was well known to some HCCA and AACA members.  What I don't understand, why only the engine and gearbox survived, later a rear axle and some small parts where added, including the steering gear. Someone made or found a chassis. So could it be possible, that the car originally fitted with "my" engine, froze and received another engine maybe an original Cleveland engine, maybe not, and was used "up", and after a while went to the scrapyard. The cracked engine was forgotten and somehow turned up in the 50-ties and went through several hands in the club scene. I don't understand why only the engine survived and not the whole car. Another remotely possibility is, that the complete car was bought by the then well known Mr. Barney Pollard. When one of his warehouses burned down, I recon not much of the burnt Cleveland was left, maybe some small parts, engine rear axle and gearbox etc. Most cars were stacked in upright position in his warehouses, not much of a chance to rapid extinguish the fire. So the engine became quite hot, and was was cooled very rapid, by the fire water, so it cracked at its weakest point. I guess that after the fire, some parts of the burned cars were saved and later sold. To me its rather intriguing, what kind of past events led to the condition of  these particular Cleveland parts.

 

Next days I  hope to complete the front axle or sanding the body (depends on the weather).

 

Regards,

Harm

 

Edited by Sloth
cleaned up a sentence (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)

To add a little to the stitching/welding/brazing debate...aside from it being cast iron, we have no way of knowing what the original metal even is. they were very good at cast iron at the turn of the century but that does not mean that all castings were perfect or even good. When I had the blocks of my car bored once of the comments made by the gentleman who did it was that the iron was different in the two blocks. One was very dense - a really good casting but the other was powdery...not a bad casting but clearly not as good as the first one. The saving grace of stitching is that, since it does not use heat, it is applicable to practically all castings and works equally well regardless of the makeup of the original metal.

 

And...I bet that car was off the road before 1910. It was fairly common to use the old engines for pumps, saws and whatever else a farmer or mechanic could think up and not want to spend much money on.

Edited by JV Puleo (see edit history)
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Hello Joe, I think you are right. Coming from 'alternative' use would explain why only the engine and gearbox were found.

 

Today, the crack dye arrived. After applying it, no new cracks showed up.

 

Regards,

Harm

 

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