radial tires

[mikesbrunn]

we will be touring this summer in a 1936 Packard with 7.50 x 17 tires and I would like to find someone who supplies radial tires. I heard they were available but haven't come up with much yet.

thanks - Mike

[edinmass]

Lots of people like them, and others don't. I had a set of them on a 1936 Pierce 12(same size), and removed them. I didn't like the look. They were a good tire, but they are just off enough in look that makes me uncomfortable with them. They are very expensive, and make sure you get TRUCK RADIAL tubes, or you WILL have problems.

[Matt Harwood]

I've been desperately looking for 750R17 radials for my '35 Lincoln and they don't seem to exist in the US. Michelin makes a 750R17 XCA truck radial but it does not seem to be available in the US. Of course, they're blackwalls so if you want whitewalls, you'd need to contact Diamondback Classic--they inform me that if I can find the tires, they can put whitewalls on them. When I talked to them, they mentioned that they have sold tires in this size in the past, but I think they quoted me a price of something like $650 each. EACH. 

 

The large antique car tire manufacturer appears to be saying that they'll make the 750R17 XCA radial available someday, and I've seen sites with a ship date of 12/21/18, but I'm EXTREMELY skeptical of anything a collector car tire manufacturer says regarding delivery dates.

 

That same large antique car tire manufacturer currently makes a 700/750R17 Excelsior radial, but it looks like it was designed for European cars and might not look right on our big American cars, and it is a blackwall (Diamondback could surely whitewall it). I think they're too narrow and the tread pattern is too aggressive for an American luxury car.

 

I'm sold on the improvement that radials represent over bias-ply tires, particularly given the quality control issues recently experienced from the large antique car tire manufacturer and their bias-ply tires. However, given that my current tires are octagon-shaped from sitting for decades, anything would be an improvement. I'm looking at blackwall bias-plys simply because they would be less expensive until I can figure out the radial situation (Lucas Tire has 750-17 blackwall Denmans identical to the whitewalls currently on the car for $159 each, which is a screaming bargain). Or maybe I'll like how they look, I don't know. But I need new tires and I've been searching for radials for about a month without any real success.

 

That said, I can probably buy a pallet of the Michelins XCA (96 tires, I believe) from Mexico. What are the chances that I could sell 23 other sets?

[edinmass]

Don't forget rim or wheel failure is also possible with radial tires on pre war cars. I have seen several issues with them. Also, on the Cadillac's, the rims flex so much the hub caps keep falling off, unless you weld stiffeners on the rim. I recommend caution on any pre war car running radials, I get why people want them. There are so many potential issues, unless you car is at 100 percent, you could end up with lots of other problems. It's also much easier to drive faster with them, which is probably not a good idea either. 

[Matt Harwood]

56 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Don't forget rim or wheel failure is also possible with radial tires on pre war cars. I have seen several issues with them. 

 

Show me a picture. I hear this all the time, everyone has dire warnings about radials creating some kind of additional stress, but in years of combing the internet, I can't find one old car wearing radials with a rim-related failure due to radial tires. You'd think if this was a common problem, people would at least snap a picture and say, "Holy cow, look at this!" But no, not one documented incident beyond heresy and vague warnings. Not. One.

 

Substandard or damaged wheels don't count because they would break no matter what kind of tires are on them.

 

Show me a wheel that broke because a radial was on it that wouldn't have otherwise broken with a bias-ply tire on it.

[JACK M]

I can vouch the 'hub caps falling off' statement. (full wheel covers)

However I have run lots of miles with poverty caps.

[MCHinson]

4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

I'm looking at blackwall bias-plys simply because they would be less expensive until I can figure out the radial situation

 

You might want to check out Simpletire.com. I found a good deal on that site for tires for my 1938 Century. A quick glance at their site seems to show that they might have several options in 7.50 x 17. Here is one, but you might check out their other options in the same size.  https://simpletire.com/universal-75017-u71015-tires  These show as in stock for immediate shipment.  You will recognize the manufacturer of some but not all of the ones that they have.

[Matt Harwood]

Deal of the century right here if you want period-correct blackwall bias-ply tires (ignore the picture, they show a whitewall but the blackwall should have the same tread): https://www.lucasclassictires.com/750-17-Denman-Blackwall-255.htm 

 

I have Denman whitewalls on the car right now and they are almost an exact match for the tires shown in the catalog image, which I like. The catalog image also shows whitewalls, and I prefer whitewalls on this particular car, although if I could find a set of chrome 17-inch trim rings for my painted wire wheels, I'd consider doing blackwalls. They would help break up all that dark color and keep it from looking too much like a Nazi staff car. That can wait until we sort out the engine, though...

 

 

[edinmass]

Matt......you can choose as you wish. I have seen wheel failure myself with them on a Cadillac. If you think a rim that flexes so much that the hub caps keep falling off is OK, then run them. Myself, my safety and cars are too important to take a chance with. Just wait until the first loss of life happens with a car with radial tires on it that the car WAS NOT DESIGNED FOR. Watch the insurance company not want to pay out. I recently made a new set of wheels for a car we have, and I worked with the the company to make them out of a stronger and thicker type of steel. I did it in the event I wanted to place radials on the car. On the last tour I was on in September, there were FIVE wheel failures.........FIVE. And by the way, one of them was BRAND NEW! Made the guy who had them made give up on driving the car, as he no longer trusted the other wheels. 

[Matt Harwood]

With all due respect, Ed, that's a repro Coker/Firestone bias-ply tire on that wheel, strongly suggesting that the problem lay with the wheel, not the tire (actually, it looks like the lock ring had an issue). I've heard the horror stories and the warnings, but nobody has ever produced genuine evidence of a wheel that was damaged because it had a radial tire mounted on it instead of a bias-ply. Will it happen someday? Who knows? But the lack of evidence suggests it hasn't yet.

 

I just can't believe that the wheels on these insanely heavy, expensive, well-engineered cars are so close to their failure point that a tire change can cause them to fail in spectacular fashion when driven at moderate speeds on modern paved roads. Perhaps the failure you describe is BECAUSE the new wheels weren't original spec, not in spite of it. Bigger and stronger isn't always better and smarter. Perhaps the wheel didn't flex properly. Perhaps the steel used had a different failure point or less elasticity. Perhaps the added weight of the heavier-duty rim over-stressed different parts of the wheel's center section. Maybe whomever was driving the car curbed it or crashed through a giant pothole. Maybe the tire was under-inflated and offered insufficient protection to the wheel rim. It isn't logical to assume that a wheel failure like that on a car wearing bias-ply tires also makes a radial more likely to cause such a failure.

 

Hubcaps coming off large cars is a known issue--for example, the shop manual for late '50s Lincolns specifically recommends installing the hubcaps with the wheels in the air and not loaded for this very reason, and as you know, those cars came standard with bias-ply tires. I also had a late-model Lincoln Mark V that tossed hubcaps like Frisbees, but it came standard with the same 15-inch radials that are on it today. Are the wheels dangerous? Should it be retrofitted with bias-ply tires? I don't know, but until the center gets torn out of one I'm simply going to accept that a little flexing is probably normal on a heavy car and that the wheels were designed to withstand it. Besides, is anyone driving their antique cars at 10/10ths and throwing them into corners hard enough to find the limits of tire adhesion? That is one situation where I can see radials' superior grip being a factor in a failure, but that's apparently not an issue, either, because it doesn't seem to have happened.

 

Like I said, anecdotal evidence is certainly a kind of evidence, but I have yet to see a photo of a wheel that failed because a radial tire was mounted on it. Like the leaded gas scare, the synthetic oil myth, the wrong color anti-freeze will kill your radiator warning, and other persistently incorrect stories in the hobby, the "radial tires can damage old car wheels" story is probably one part truth and nine parts speculation rather than empirical evidence. I certainly understand insurance concerns about "what if it happens," but the evidence isn't on the side of it happening and if it were, the insurance companies would already be making that exclusion on our cars. My policy says damage from superchargers, turbochargers, and nitrous and other "performance modifications" are specifically excluded, so if they know which owner-installed changes can cause expensive problems, why not exclude the radial tires, too? A tire failure is much more likely to cause expensive loss of life than a supercharger. If an insurance company can't find a reason to charge you more or deny a claim, I would put my money on the side of it being a non-issue.

 

And to argue in favor of radials, how old was that Firestone in your photo? Even if it was "brand new" to you, I bet it was already 2-3 years old when you installed it. My most recent Coker/Firestones for my 1929 Cadillac (which have now been replaced twice under warranty) were 28 months old when I got them. The radials I installed on my '41 Buick were two months old and came with a 40,000-mile warranty. Which ones seem safer to me? Do you even have to ask?

 

All I'm saying is that before I advise against radials or choose not to use them on my own vehicles, I'd like to see just one old car wheel that was damaged because it was driven normally with a radial tire on it. I don't care one way or the other what people put on their cars; I think they should do what they feel is proper. But as someone who, like you, goes through a lot of tires each year and drives a lot of cars and sees a lot of broken shiat, I just can't point to radials as a problem. I don't have a dog in the fight, I just think the fear-mongering regarding radials on old cars is unwarranted. That's all I'm saying.

Edited December 14, 2018 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Way to go, Matt.  For what it is worth, I don't always agree with you. This time and subject I believe you nailed it. 

 

  Ben

[Curti]

White walls are a blond brunette thing.  For those folks that insist on whitewalls on pre 1938 cars,  they need to be on BOTH sides.   The picture above is a artist rendering. 

It seems to me that fewer and fewer big classic cars are running white walls.  To me, they seem to take the focus away from the car and to the tires. 

[edinmass]

https://www.sema.org/files/attachments/WTC-2011-05-Bias-vs-Radial-Tire-Wheel-Fitment.pdf 

 

 

Try reading this on bias VS radial tires. Notice at the last page where it says some rims are NOT made to run radial tires. As for actual failure, I have seen a 1941 160 Series Packard with a failed rim, and a 1935 Pierce. Radial tires place higher loads on the rim, no question about it. I also have spoken to manufacturers of wheels about this issue. Just in the last few weeks I spoke to an engineer at Hunter Engineering on this topic. They make the most modern and sophisticated wheel and alignment equipment in the world.  They specifically spoke about the poor quality of steel wheels built before World War II, and how they didn’t have good quaility control while manufacturing them. We spent the most time talking about Kelsey-Hayes wheels.  We also covered run out, off center wheels, new tires that are manufactured out of round, static and computer balancing, and a bunch of other details. Ultimately radial tires on a pre war car is a solution in search of a problem. The last five world class collections I went to didn’t have any pre war cars with radial tires. Add it all up, with the cost, rim problems or possible problems, and running tubes in the radial tire, there just isn’t enough benefit in the final analysis. 

 

 

 

 

[Mikefit]

Matt please take your place at the head of the class. This sounds like the global warming story if you ask me. I'm running radial tires on my 1963 Avanti for about 25k miles and yet to have a rim problem and it's been coast to coast hard.

[Spinneyhill]

1963 Avanti is a bit different to a 1935 Lincoln or Buick or Chev or Studebaker or whatever, pre-war car. 20 years more technology, better metallurgy, more engineering mathematics known and so on.

[edinmass]

13 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

1963 Avanti is a bit different to a 1935 Lincoln or Buick or Chev or Studebaker or whatever, pre-war car. 20 years more technology, better metallurgy, more engineering mathematics known and so on.

 

This is a PRE WAR radial discussion.

Edited December 15, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Mikefit]

Point well taken sorry I got off of the subject . Mike

[edinmass]

Mike .....all is well. No worries. I’m the most guilty party on this sight hijacking threads and changing subjects. 

 

Question on for you on your Avanti........do you know why the logo has an arrrow through it?

 

 

 

[5219]

It seems to me that fewer and fewer big classic cars are running white walls.  To me, they seem to take the focus away from the car and to the tires.

 

Well said. Every time a non-car person comments on my 1940 LaSalle, they always say "Look at those whitewalls!". It irks me. 

[Mikefit]

I don't know the answer to the logo please inform me . Back to the wheels   Hunter makes top of the line equipment don't get me wrong but that's all the make ( no wheels or rims) that would be like saying Champion Spark plug Co were electrical engineers and a expert on ignition systems all Hunter sees it the results.  My 2¢ Mike

[Spinneyhill]

4 hours ago, Mikefit said:

that would be like saying Champion Spark plug Co were electrical engineers and a expert on ignition systems

Which they most definitely are, else how could they design spark plugs for all types of ignition at all voltages and speeds, for injected and carburetted engines, for 1500 rpm and 15000 rpm machines at different temperatures and compression ratios. In addition, they must know about combustion chamber design and flame propagation and other things of which I am completely ignorant. 

 

And for Hunter to design testing equipment, they must know all about what they are testing. They don't make these things in isolation by poking a stick in a black box and churning a sausage machine.

[Mikefit]

Champion did not design any ignition systems  they only make a device to ignite the fuel charge. Hunter doesn't make wheels or have a degree in metallurgy. No Judge would allow their testimony that they are experts in wheels or ignition system

 

[edinmass]

Mike......the arrow is a left over from the original name of the car. It was going to be called “Pierce-Arrow II”, and it was changed at the last minute. The arrow through the logo remained. Hunter Engineering has extensive background in dealing with pre war and post war car and truck wheels. The are the premier equipment company for wheel balancing, alignment, and other chassis components. There isn’t anyone better in the business. 

[Mikefit]

Ed. Thanks for the information about the arrow in all the books I have on Avanti there has never been mentioned about the arrow thanks I have found out about another fact.   My back ground. All most 40yrs as and alignment technician   used  Hunter.  Bear and my old friend Jim Beam all good equipment. My point is and was all 3 companies do not make wheels and would not be an expert on why a wheel failed  only that it did fail  I saw more wheels fail in the center some from loose lug nuts some just plane over loading side stressing.  Thanks.   Mike

[John_Mereness]

[billorn]

9 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

 

What is that picture showing? I dont see a broken wheel just a flat tire. I dont think anybody said radials go flat any easier. I thought we were talking about radials breaking wheels? Flat tires happen all the time. I have to agree that I have never seen a broken wheel from a radial.

 

By the way I have used radials on my 56' Olds 98 since 1984. Four set's of them. Never any issues I just replace when they start to feel old. I know its not an older car like some others but the wheels are the same design as 40's cars maybe even some 30's. I dont know if I would put them on a car with wood wheels or anything like that but steel wheels should handle it no problem.

[John_Mereness]

10 hours ago, billorn said:

 

What is that picture showing? I dont see a broken wheel just a flat tire. I dont think anybody said radials go flat any easier. I thought we were talking about radials breaking wheels? Flat tires happen all the time. I have to agree that I have never seen a broken wheel from a radial.

 

By the way I have used radials on my 56' Olds 98 since 1984. Four set's of them. Never any issues I just replace when they start to feel old. I know its not an older car like some others but the wheels are the same design as 40's cars maybe even some 30's. I dont know if I would put them on a car with wood wheels or anything like that but steel wheels should handle it no problem.

It is actually a multi-point discussion - and one of the points in addition to rim issues is often running tubes in radial tires (especially w/wire wheels).  

 

Sidenote:  I doubt a 1956 Oldsmobile would ever have an issue (I ran radials on my 1955 Buick without issue - other than I put some strips on Duct Tape in the rim to give the hubcap teeth something to grip into (just in case) as near perfect 1955 Roadmaster Hubcaps are not easy to find). 

[billorn]

John are those wire wheels under the cover's? Is it a radial?

[Curti]

John, you need correct welt tips .

[mikesbrunn]

it looks like I will reconsider radials, but is there a better brand or tread type that will give me a better ride?.  The tires now make my front end go all over the place when I hit an imperfection in the road

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

2 minutes ago, mikesbrunn said:

it looks like I will reconsider radials, but is there a better brand or tread type that will give me a better ride?.  The tires now make my front end go all over the place when I hit an imperfection in the road

 

"You can't have your cake and eat it too.". Mom

 

  Ben

[Grimy]

mikesbrunn, check your toe-in now.  I find that my 1930s Pierces need 1/4" total toe-in although the specs say 1/8 to 1/4.  When I got my 1930, the wheels were actually toed OUT and had the same reaction you describe.  Of course, hold off on the full front-end alignment (at a place which does medium-duty trucks) until new tires are installed.

[Matt Harwood]

25 minutes ago, mikesbrunn said:

it looks like I will reconsider radials, but is there a better brand or tread type that will give me a better ride?.  The tires now make my front end go all over the place when I hit an imperfection in the road

 

I know this thread didn't help you much and it ultimately is a personal decision. I don't have any investment in radials beyond being a happy user. I will say that on my '41 Buick, installing radials made half the bumps and half the noise disappear and it tracks like a cruise missile. That somewhat queasy lurch you feel when you hit a truck rut is gone. It steers with a fingertip rather than two hands. Admittedly, my '41 is a bit more modern with an independent front suspension and steel wheels that are welded like modern wheels, but it's not that much more advanced than your Packard. I have also put them on my wife's 1956 Chrysler with wire wheels and I as I said, I'd like to put them on my Lincoln, which uses the same size your Packard would.

 

That said, I suppose it's all moot anyway--there are currently no 17-inch radials available for us to use. Bias-ply tires and a good alignment are your best bet. Pick the ones that look best to you--they're all made by the same company anyway, so quality differences are negligible. I personally like the aggressive tread of the Firestones, but they're a bit noisier than the BFGoodrich Silvertowns. Prices are about the same. And as I said, if I go with blackwalls, I'll be using those cheap Denmans I linked earlier simply because they're not made by Coker and at that price, if I ultimately switch to something else, at least it won't kill me to peel them off the car.

 

Good luck and happy motoring!

[oldford]

For my money, Universal's Lester tread is the softest, most comfortable ride of any bias tire. You can get 700 x 17 in black wall for $222 or the white wall for $306. They don't seem to offer a 17 inch tire in the 750 size.

 

Fran

[John_Mereness]

On 12/17/2018 at 1:10 PM, billorn said:

John are those wire wheels under the cover's? Is it a radial?

Yes, those are 16" wire wheels under the covers and that is a radial tire - I could not determine the exact cause other than I assume the tube went flat and then the tread (perfectly intact) separated off the sidewalls. 

[Spinneyhill]

So why did it go flat? Puncture: but how? I had several tube pinches at the overlap in the rust bands (flaps, you call them). Continuous bands don't do this. Maybe the tire rotated on the rim and pulled the valve out? I have had that too, with bias ply tires. I have also had tread separation for no reason other than ..... hu noze? manufacturing fault? Was there a rust band in there? is the dumb question.

[Buffalowed Bill]

I have post war cars with older style wheels and radial tires, and never have had an inordinate problem, other then caps that want to come off or make noise. With my pre-war cars I never ventured into the radial unknown.

 

It did lead me to ask a question that I simply couldn't answer. I have seen the videos of cars with wooden spokes handle the early rutted roads in a way that stamped steel wheels wouldn't have a chance. They did it with the wheel's ability to flex. Not just a little bit either, but with so much flex that you would swear  that the spokes would break, but they always retained their shape. I know that when we were kids we tore up a set of wire wheels on a 1959 MGA, but what we did to that car I doubt that any wheel would have survived. But wire wheels have to flex, by their nature, correct? So my ultimate question-wouldn't wooden, or wire pre-war wheels, be a better choice then stamped steel, either artillery or disc, for use with radial tires? Pleas tell me if I'm missing something.

[JWLawrence]

I ran Diamondback radial whitewalls (Hankook) on my 37 Packard Six Convertible Coupe for years and miles of trouble free motoring. The wheels (not rims) sealed and no loss of air pressure over months of time. Just more fuel for the discussion. JWL

[Larry Schramm]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 7:23 PM, mikesbrunn said:

it looks like I will reconsider radials, but is there a better brand or tread type that will give me a better ride?.  The tires now make my front end go all over the place when I hit an imperfection in the road

 

Besides looking at the toe in as suggested earlier, I would look closely at the caster.  If not enough caster in the alignment, the car will want to wander anyways.  If you are just driving, does the steering wheel want to center it's self when driving on a straight flat road or does it want to wander.   If it does not want to self center, then probably not enough caster in the system.  Just IMO.

[John_Mereness]

Phil Bray (unfort. now deceased) showed up at a CCCA Grand Classic several years back with a perhaps 1932 or 1933 Chrysler imperial that I think had a 17" whitewall on it - I do not recall who made though, but they were pretty well done and I think we maybe took a point off or did not take anything off.  I also Diamond Back had some 17" sizes via radials. 

 

As to bias ply - I tend to like a BF Goodrich (I have always been happy).

 

The reproduction authentic tread Firestones are nice too (as far as look - I have installed a few sets with friends though cars have not yet been driven or seen time yet).