HELP what is it cyclecar?

[Simon Anderson]

 

Hello from Australia

 

G'day,

I have a front axle off some vehicle that myself and others are stumped on what its off. If you know anyone or have any ideas on what it could possibly be off it would be great to know as well as any other information.

 

It apears to have front brakes which are 7 inch in diameter and 1 inch wide which are threaded onto a 40 spoke dual ball bearing hub.

 

That basic dimension of the assembly are 40 inches from hub center to center. 

What is interesting is that the main axle has, what seams to be a tube chassis that attached directly to the axle. 

Another interesting area is where the spring or frame area may have attached to the axle, the spring or frame would be now wider then 1-1/2", I am thinking more that a woooden beam/frame was mounted to this area as it has many small little grippers in this area.

 

what appears to be a chassis connection are two main tubes in 1" diameter and two smaller 1/2" tubes on a approximately 10-15 degree angle from the main 1" tube, all these have been just cut off from the cut angles. (Galvanised rod in pictures is to show where the 1/2" rod was and angle)

i am thinking some thing like a tri car, cyclecar or quadcar.  Phoenix, Riley, Lagonda.

i would like to try and make it back into what ever it is.

 

any thoughts?

 

Many thanks,

Simon

Edited April 14, 2018 by Simon Anderson
Update information (see edit history)

[Curti]

Old farm equipment.

[60FlatTop]

Might want to start searching with things like this:

[Simon Anderson]

Ok, thanks gentleman,

 

when i I have been looking through old automotive books and good old google, the brands, Phoenix quadcar, Lagonda tricar and Riley  forcar all from the 1905-1915 ish all had front wheel brakes with the same brake 7" as pictured.

Also the hubs and hub caps where nickel not chrome as discovered after removing a hub cap.

As for the threads, they are metric and from what I have read and been told, early English and French cars where metric threads.

[Rusty_OToole]

French used Metric from way back when. England had their own systems. Whitworth, British Standard Fine, Cycle Engineers Institute and possibly others. Ford of England used American thread standards, which were adopted by British motorcycle makers in 1969 as Unified thread standard. So if it is English it could be anything except sensible.

 

If it is truly metric it must be European, but there is a good chance it is some long forgotten English system.

 

Some early cars and machines, connected the front and rear axles by 2 long reaches or perches, which were wooden rods. This kept the front and rear axle aligned while suspension was provided by very flexible full elliptic springs.  Your axle appears to have sockets for such reaches.

 

If it is for a car it has a very odd king pin angle. It should be more nearly vertical.

 

An intriguing puzzle.

[Rusty_OToole]

There is too much wrong with the geometry for it to be a car axle. The wheel centers are too far outside the king pin. The king pin angle too steep. What are those, band brake drums? Front brakes didn't come along until the mid twenties and I don't think anyone use band front brakes. Those sockets look like they are for wooden rods but that kind of thing went out before the twenties. It just doesn't add up. None of it makes sense.

[keiser31]

Those look more like belt pulleys than brakes or wheels.

Edited April 14, 2018 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

It is NOT automotive. It is a farm implement from about 1905 to 1915 from the looks of the grease cup. 

[1937hd45]

It is over engineered unless it was used to haul construction equipment, was there a local brick factory? Bob 

[auburnseeker]

Would a farm implement have had a wire spoke wheel though? 

[ragtop4two]

I was thinking the same thing as Keiser. Probably something to run multiple machines like this image shows

[nzcarnerd]

1 hour ago, ragtop4two said:

I was thinking the same thing as Keiser. Probably something to run multiple machines like this image shows

 

But it has kingpins, which suggest steering.  Maybe something industrial.

[nzcarnerd]

There are 359 pages of discussion re cycle cars here.  Many of the pictures have disappeared from the earlier pages. 

 

https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/lets-talk-cyclecars.226791/

[Spinneyhill]

I wonder if it is an axle from under a horse- or tractor-drawn implement. The belt drives by the wheels could be to operate the machinery mounted on the axle. The king pins would allow some steering to place the implement over the right rows of crop behind the towing animal or machine.

[Spinneyhill]

A seed drilling machine comes to mind.

[Simon Anderson]

Yes the angle of the socket to the king pin is far from square, but in the picture below, we have an example of a spring on an odd angle and front brakes, the measurement noted are the same here, it could be a coincidence. I have thought about fram or factory machinery, but I keep thinking why would they use spoked wheels and not just a cast or wooden spoked wheel. 

Talking about the spokes, they are 13gauge and One set had not been cut below where the spokes would have crossed. They had been wire twitch with fine wire at what I believe would have been the cross of the spoke, like what was done to motorcycle or racing bicycle wheels. 

What ever it is I find it an interesting piece.

 

note: the galvanised rods shown in the main pictures above, are to demonstrate where the 1/2" tube is and angle.

Edited April 14, 2018 by Simon Anderson (see edit history)

[oily rag]

The nubs on the axle mounts indicate it was designed for a wooden frame not springs. It also looks to me as farming or industrial  type engineering. 

[Pluto]

This is most interesting. The use of spoke wheels tells me that the expected load would be not great, excluding truck/trailer, industrial or agricultural use. Although I briefly envisioned some sort of high-wheel harvesting machine, but the narrow foot-print of a bicycle type tire wouldn't serve in a muddy field. 

 

It steers and stops, indicating, or at least hinting that it is self-propelled. The nubs on the spring pads could be an effort to either help anchor the spring or firmly locate a rubber or wood isolation pad between spring and axle.

 

The Phoenix QuadCar looks like it has a lot of features that could be found on this axle. Is the PQC underslung, with the axle above the spring? An aside: the copywriter waxed a little poetic in describing the gear change as "sweet and smooth." Say that today and the service department would be besieged with ham-fisted and irate gear mashers.

[Craig Gillingham]

It looks automotive to me, and I think those are oil cups on the hubs, not grease cups. They have a hole in the top that you turn to open and close them, used in the early 1900's era.

[Simon Anderson]

30 minutes ago, Craig Gillingham said:

It looks automotive to me, and I think those are oil cups on the hubs, not grease cups. They have a hole in the top that you turn to open and close them, used in the early 1900's era.

Correct, you turn the top to expose the hole. Rottenham Coventry is the brand on the oiler

[Pluto]

Rottenham Coventry.

 

Coventry, home of Sir Frank Whittle, Sir John Egan, the Coventry Climax, birthplace of Triumph motorcycles, Rover Cars and home of Lady Godiva. 

 

 

[Craig Gillingham]

 

Are you sure it's got metric threads? because I think this is the front axle from a Rex Tricar, and that would fit in with a Rotherham's oiler. They also made a larger Rexette, which has matching brakes and hubcaps, just that those two cut off frame tubes match a Rex Tricar and not the Rexette. Those spring mounts would be correct, and there were some forecars/tricars that had their king pins leaning back -for some reason. I know the Phoenix Trimo didn't have vertical kingpins, they were angled back like these. Also, a look on Trove shows that Rexes were sold here at least in the 1904-05 period. I could be wrong, but that's the direction I'd look in.

 

Also, a post in the Classic Motorcycle forum may help. There are a coupe of members on there that are brilliant at identifying these early 1900's vehicles.

 

http://www.classicmotorcycleforum.com/

 

http://cybermotorcycle.com/archives/bikesheds/veteran/1903rexforecar.html

Edited April 15, 2018 by Craig Gillingham (see edit history)

[Simon Anderson]

Awesome thanks Craig.

[mike6024]

1905 Rexette 5 hp tricar

1904 Rex tricar - Great Britain

[nzcarnerd]

2 hours ago, mike6024 said:

1905 Rexette 5 hp tricar

1904 Rex tricar - Great Britain

 

These early ones are Fore-cars and tri- cars. The hey day of the cycle car was the years before and just after WW2.

[Rusty_OToole]

If the greasers are English no doubt the rest is English. Look up Cycle Engineer Institute threads, it may not be metric in fact it won't be if it is English.https://sizes.com/tools/thread_cei.htm

CEI was established in 1898. 

 

If it was a forecar axle that was mounted rigid to the frame, with a seat suspended on leaf springs that would explain the odd angle of the spring and reach mounting. I don't know how to explain the steering. With the tire center line so far outside the king pin line and very large caster angle it should have been very dodgy to steer. Maybe on smooth roads at slow speeds it was ok. Those drums seem odd too. If they had front brakes they anticipate the finest cars by 15 years. But I don't see any brake mechanism in the pictures. I can't imagine what else they might be for.

[mike6024]

Those "Drums" look huge in the first picture, but didn't the OP say they are only 7 inches in diameter? Could they be for a "band brake" as opposed to driving a belt for farming? The picture of one of these tri-Cars seems to show it has band brakes up front, at least I think that's what I am seeing.

 

 

 

 

[Craig Gillingham]

You're right, they're band brakes, they were used on a lot of forecars. Looking at other Rexette photos, they appear to have a 'block' between the spring and the spring mount, which is probably wood. That would explain the notches on the spring mount and the previous comments about the mounts being more suitable for wood than a spring.

[Simon Anderson]

Yes I agree,  a brake band would run on these drums. After spending many days reading old books and google, I have found about 4 brands that had front band brakes in earlier 1900s.

 

The thread pitch on the hub cap and king pin is M1.25 by may basic thread gauge

Edited April 15, 2018 by Simon Anderson (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

I think maybe some of us have not read the first post and not realised how small this thing is.  Me included.

[Simon Anderson]

This appears to have the same hub caps

[Stude17]

This small shaft on the steering arm could be part of the mechanism to operate the brake band. Can't tell if there is another on the other side.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Stude17 (see edit history)

[Simon Anderson]

6 minutes ago, Stude17 said:

This small shaft on the steering arm could be part of the mechanism to operate the brake band. Can't tell if there is another on the other side.

Yes the same "pivot?" is on the other side.

[Simon Anderson]

It would be great if anyone had any pictures or literature on these Forecar/tricar  on the frame/chassis, or just any info.

 

[Craig Gillingham]

This link is to a 1907 Chater Lea parts catalogue. There's a lot of tricar info in here, as well as a close up of the band brake assembly

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/flattank_motorcycles/sets/72157631755710640/

[Simon Anderson]

9 minutes ago, Craig Gillingham said:

This link is to a 1907 Chater Lea parts catalogue. There's a lot of tricar info in here, as well as a close up of the band brake assembly

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/flattank_motorcycles/sets/72157631755710640/

thanks once again Graig, what a great catalogue and give so great info.

[60FlatTop]

 

Oh, wow, I thought all the evidence of the GM/Shanghai Alliance had been destroyed. That was the prototype where the translator messed up. GM said they wanted to bring a Tri-Shield car to China and they rolled out the Tri-Wheeled one. Oh, well, back to the drawing board.

Bernie