Mark Gregory Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I know this site is supposed to be be about Antique cars . There will be a few who will remind me about this . Here is a video of the new Tesla plant unbelievable https://www.youtube.com/embed/8_lfxPI5ObM?rel=0 Having worked at a AMC assembly plant in Brampton in the early 1970's This is quite a shock to see a robot installing the windshield compared to 2 men doing it . Also seeing the whole dash been installed in one shot . We used to install the dash then all the AC components , radio , etc . Body parts coming in from Kenosha , men spray painting the cars , etc . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsmoke Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Great Videp, spectacular progress in use of robotics, digital technology etc, etc. When I think back, only 50 years ago I was in Engineering and Architectural Schools using a "slide rule" for computing! Oh how things have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Why to people think Elon Musk is God's gift to the automobile and the space program? News flash: every big automaker uses robotics like that. The difference is that Ford, Kia, etc build hundreds of thousands of cars a year and make a profit doing it. Tesla loses about half a million dollars AN HOUR!!! The fact that their market cap is so high is a testament to the stupidity of lemming investors. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 So Joe, tell us how you really feel about Tesla! Not sure why the strong dislike for their products. As an innovator in the field of electric autos and the solar and space programs they are certainly setting the pace for developments on many fronts and doing it here in the USA. Sure other businesses use robots but their use of complex systems to make safer driving experiences is what attracts investors to them, something the mainstream auto manufacturers were slow to adapt. Yes I'm biased, I like the opportunities the future of electric cars can offer and the work going into them to make them safe. Terry 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 That is as interesting as a line up of 25 year old used cars on an AACA show site with their hoods open. Bob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 hours ago, joe_padavano said: Why to people think Elon Musk is God's gift to the automobile and the space program? I'm still trying to get past Aeon Flux when it comes to furin names. 20 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: That is as interesting as a line up of 25 year old used cars on an AACA show site with their hoods open. Bob Wanna see what I have 12 of under the hood of my 14 year old used car? Assembled by robots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Only if it left Enzo's factory. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, TerryB said: So Joe, tell us how you really feel about Tesla! Not sure why the strong dislike for their products. As an innovator in the field of electric autos and the solar and space programs they are certainly setting the pace for developments on many fronts and doing it here in the USA. Sure other businesses use robots but their use of complex systems to make safer driving experiences is what attracts investors to them, something the mainstream auto manufacturers were slow to adapt. Yes I'm biased, I like the opportunities the future of electric cars can offer and the work going into them to make them safe. Terry My experience is in the aerospace world. I've been in meetings with Elon. There is no magic in what SpaceX is doing - their launch vehicles are using essentially 1950s technology (liquid oxygen and kerosene propellants, aluminum structure, etc). They aren't doing anything any different from other aerospace companies, except for the fact that they are very vertically oriented and that they pay their people for 40 hrs/wk and work them 100+. Yeah, that's a great way to get your direct costs down. If one does the math on SoCal labor rates, facilities costs, etc, and with their self-admitted 5000 employees, one can quickly figure out that SpaceX isn't making money either. Since they are not publicly owned, they don't release financial data. It's easy to lower costs in an industry if you are losing money in the process. It's not sustainable, however. Despite this, people who should know better think Elon is the second coming of Robert Goddard. Edited March 2, 2018 by joe_padavano (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said: That is as interesting as a line up of 25 year old used cars on an AACA show site with their hoods open. Bob For you, yes for me it's different. Assuming your 1937 hd45 is a reference to a motorcycle, then you will understand my interest in accident avoidance technology. I have no right leg and no use of the left one or anything below the waist thanks to a driver who did not see my motorcycle and turned into my lane of travel. Had his vehicle been equipped with the accident avoidance software pioneered by companies like Tesla and now by other manufacturers the outcome would have been much better. So that technology plus the zero emissions of electric is fascinating to me and I can relate to it's importance even on a site where antiques are the main focus. Terry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, joe_padavano said: My experience is in the aerospace world. I've been in meetings with Elon. There is no magic in what SpaceX is doing - their launch vehicles are using essentially 1950s technology (liquid oxygen and kerosene propellants, aluminum structure, etc). They aren't doing anything any different from other aerospace companies, except that they pay their people for 40 hrs/wk and work them 100+. Yeah, that's a great way to get your direct costs down. If one does the math on SoCal labor rates, facilities costs, etc, and with their self-admitted 5000 employees, one can quickly figure out that SpaceX isn't making money either. Since they are not publicly owned, they don't release financial data. It's easy to lower costs in an industry if you are losing money in the process. It's not sustainable, however. Despite this, people who should know better think Elon is the second coming of Robert Goddard. And who else has stepped up to the challenge? It's a poor statement on the USA when we have to rely on Russia to ferry our stuff into outer space. Space X is doing the job. Just seems strange to bash a company that is doing it here in US. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 (edited) And now back to our regularly scheduled programming on antique auto topics! Sorry to put passion into the discussion. It just happens now and then on some topics close to me. Edited March 2, 2018 by TerryB (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 5 minutes ago, joe_padavano said: doing - their launch vehicles are using essentially 1950s technology Another trucking company. Around 1985 I was standing next to a surface table with a satellite chassis sitting on it. Discussion was going on about the importance of the use of Invar. I contributed "Yeah, my 1935 Nash has Invar struts cast into the pistons to keep them concentric as the engine warms." Another fart in church. Actually, when I watched the video I was thinking about the revolutionary Lordstown, Ohio plant being robotically tooled up for Vega production. AND I have one of Enzo's piston and connecting rod assemblies on my key chain. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 28 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: Actually, when I watched the video I was thinking about the revolutionary Lordstown, Ohio plant being robotically tooled up for Vega production. Exactly my thought as well. Of course, the result was a big labor dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 8 hours ago, Mark Gregory said: I know this site is supposed to be be about Antique cars . There will be a few who will remind me about this. This video will be your 'reminder': Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Remember low tech things like magazines? Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captndan Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Take that UAW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Borg & Beck started in business with a machine that took a raw length of wood and out the other end came a ready to use wippletree. Now, there is some technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 What is a wippletree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzcarnerd Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 23 minutes ago, JACK M said: What is a wippletree? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whippletree_(mechanism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 (edited) On 2018-03-02 at 11:13 AM, TerryB said: So Joe, tell us how you really feel about Tesla! Not sure why the strong dislike for their products. As an innovator in the field of electric autos and the solar and space programs they are certainly setting the pace for developments on many fronts and doing it here in the USA. Sure other businesses use robots but their use of complex systems to make safer driving experiences is what attracts investors to them, something the mainstream auto manufacturers were slow to adapt. Yes I'm biased, I like the opportunities the future of electric cars can offer and the work going into them to make them safe. Terry Hi Terry; collision avoidance aside, there was a recent news story locally regarding Tesla and repairability. In British Columbia we have a Govt. run auto insurance program, set up years ago to counter the sky high insurance rates the Insurance industry was at that time charging drivers in British Columbia. In recent years the program has been a money looser in part due to the rapidly escalating repair costs of modern high tech vehicles. An example was presented to the public to allow them to better understand the situation. A Tesla had comparatively minor damage from a sideswipe. Something that generally would be a straightforward repair for a modern body shop. Tesla however insisted that in order to correctly repair the Hi Tech body structure the car could only be repaired by them in their U.S. repair facility. As you can imagine for a Canadian based owner and a Canadian insurer this is not a very cost or time effective solution. The customer would be without his car for a lengthy period, who knows what complications would occur with Customs Etc. In the end the Provincial insurance Co. had little choice but to write off a very expensive automobile with really pretty minor damage. All of this at substantial cost to the taxpayers of British Columbia. Really to be fair to all the other drivers of British Columbia Tesla owners should be charged a much higher insurance premium to reflect the true financial risk these Hi Tech wonders present. However the Govt. is also on an electric car mania , and so it falls on the average joe taxpayer to subsidise an elite group of owners who can afford such an expensive car. I have a reasonably decent job and the cost of a Tesla is roughly equivalent to two years of my take home pay {probably close to 20 years of my disposable income}. One would think people with such a lofty income as to be able to afford a Tesla would also be able to operate it without a hefty tax payer subsidy. Greg in Canada Edited March 3, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 I have only liability insurance, but that needs to go way up too because I might scratch and total a Tesla. Tax the poor to subsidize the wealthy is a common theme of many government policies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 I know about the Forum policy on political topics. BUT, I bought a BMW 760li V12 last week and THEY have a political section to their online Forum! I was beaming over that, for sure. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/ Maybe I will write about the 13 Russians whom were raised listening to Radio Free Europe, suffered under communism, and tried to stop socialism in the US. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Just what type of warning does Joe Average have while walking though a parking lot with one of the silent wonders with a better off than me behind the wheel.? NEVER failed to hear a Harley. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush Mechanic Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 15 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said: Just what type of warning does Joe Average have while walking though a parking lot with one of the silent wonders with a better off than me behind the wheel.? NEVER failed to hear a Harley. Bob I guess we are accustomed to watching for pedestrians and bicycles, so a quiet car shouldn't present too much of a challenge. The poorer my hearing gets, the more looking I do! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 Actually there are tests being done to make an audible noise when the vehicle is operating at low speeds around town. That plus the pedestrian avoidance monitoring done by the car, and several others on the market, should keep you safe. No need for loud and obnoxious HD exhaust noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 There are a whole bunch of cars way out of my price range like Porsche, upscale MB, BMW, Ferrari. Even new Chevy Suburbans are in that group. New Tesla Model S start at $74,000, right in the pack with the above cars. I don't have any bias against those who can afford them, just like the owners of high end Packard and Duesenbergs that can have exotic toys and I can't. Where would a Ferrari get repaired if it was sideswiped, at the local Maaco? I think not. Just seems Tesla is getting slammed unfairly. My antique collection now consists of a 1964 Vespa, a 1970 Yamaha Enduro 90, and a 1977 Minerelli moped. All owned by a one legged paraplegic with no chance of ever riding any of them again. Still, I enjoy the group here and the discussions, even the anti Tesla ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheezestaak2000 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 i loved that video. i worked in both a GM and a chrysler assembly plant back in the 60's, and the similarities are amazing, just not many people and a lot of robots. back then, i was in awe of the tire machine that would mount and balance 5 tires in 60 seconds.i remember working in the body shop, spot welding. that dam welding machine would fight back against my 140 pounds, and try to pull me up to the ceiling. needless to say, i missed more than a couple spot weld when the line was ru between the 2, the work was easier at chryslernning 60 cars an hour, and i'm not sure anybody ever noticed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1912Staver Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, TerryB said: There are a whole bunch of cars way out of my price range like Porsche, upscale MB, BMW, Ferrari. Even new Chevy Suburbans are in that group. New Tesla Model S start at $74,000, right in the pack with the above cars. I don't have any bias against those who can afford them, just like the owners of high end Packard and Duesenbergs that can have exotic toys and I can't. Where would a Ferrari get repaired if it was sideswiped, at the local Maaco? I think not. Just seems Tesla is getting slammed unfairly. My antique collection now consists of a 1964 Vespa, a 1970 Yamaha Enduro 90, and a 1977 Minerelli moped. All owned by a one legged paraplegic with no chance of ever riding any of them again. Still, I enjoy the group here and the discussions, even the anti Tesla ones. In British Columbia there are the facilities to repair virtually any of the modern exotics . There are an inordinate number of them in the area due to the legions of very wealthy Asians who have chosen to maintain a residence in British Columbia. Almost to a vehicle if they are damaged they are repaired locally without a trip back to the manufacturer . Here in B.C. we also repair and rebuild aircraft , helicopters and pretty much any other Hi Tech machine out there. But apparently not Tesla's . I don't I am being unfair to Tesla at all , they have built a car with seemingly unique repair needs, even for minor damage. I am very sorry to hear of your injury. I went from being a avid British Motorcycle owner and rider to a virtual non rider after the loss of a friend and death or injury of several acquaintances on motor cycles. The risk has become too great for me to accept. I still go out on a short ride a couple times a year if a friend drops by on a bike but even that has lessened in the last couple of years. I like Motorcycles as projects , they are still something I find to be interest. The regular riding of them however just seems too risky. Greg in Canada Edited March 4, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Tesla does have a program to certify body shops to make repairs. Perhaps none in the area were part of the program at the time the story about the repair was done. You sure can't sell a product that can't be reasonably repaired. They will evolve just like every other product that has made an impact on the consumer landscape. I tell people I had 39 great years of riding motorcycles and one really bad day in all that time. That bad day left quite a mark. Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 So the Tesla body is mainly aluminum. And the Ford F-150 also uses aluminum body panels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, mike6024 said: So the Tesla body is mainly aluminum. And the Ford F-150 also uses aluminum body panels. Yes, ask your local Ford dealer how thrilled they were to have to spend tens of thousands of dollars in their body shops for special equipment to fix those aluminum body panels. It wasn't necessary, it was just a marketing gimmick that cost a lot of money, and guess who pays for it in the end. A lot of engineering and "innovation" in cars now is just because the technology is available, not because it's a real improvement, and it almost always results in higher repair costs. Just my opinion, of course... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1937hd45 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) I had no problems rebuilding aluminum Bugatti bodywork back in the 1970's, what is the big deal with new Ford pickups? Bob Edited March 4, 2018 by 1937hd45 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Here, you can read all about it.... http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/ford-offers-dealers-20-percent-discount-aluminum-repair-tools Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 There are some interesting YouTube videos on aluminum body panel replacement on the F150. The panels are not spot-welded, but attached with rivets and, in some places, adhesive. They actually come off pretty easily using a small belt sander and, for the glue, a heat gun. I wonder how the older aluminum body panels (like Pierce Arrow and Jaguar) were attached. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8E45E Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 Land Rovers used aluminum body panels. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarNucopia Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 (edited) On 3/2/2018 at 3:26 PM, joe_padavano said: Despite this, people who should know better think Elon is the second coming of Robert Goddard. Whereas he is really the second coming of Malcolm Bricklin (only much more effective). On 3/2/2018 at 3:31 PM, TerryB said: And who else has stepped up to the challenge? It's a poor statement on the USA when we have to rely on Russia to ferry our stuff into outer space. Space X is doing the job. Just seems strange to bash a company that is doing it here in US The United Launch Alliance. The reason people don't like Musk is because the narrative on him and his companies is so far removed from the reality. Yes, he has managed some very impressive accomplishments. But, he has done so by building a financial house of cards on a foundation of untruths. Did you know that in 2017, Tesla lost nearly $2,000,000,000 selling 100K cars? I'm not willing to lower the bar for him just because he's in America. When this doesn't end well, will you be happy he's from the US? Edited March 4, 2018 by Buick64C (see edit history) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryB Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 The other big power in the electric car and renewable energy game is China. They have electric car R&D operations just down the street from Tesla. Guess where they are recruiting talent from? Even with Elon's flaws, his work is still based here. I've had the "pleasure" of working in China to transfer jobs and technology from the US to them and I've seen their desire to dethrone the US in the technology world standings ratings. They are hungry for this goal. I like the idea that someone here in the USA is challenging them so I continue to root for the home team. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRWRacing Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 On 3/2/2018 at 3:26 PM, joe_padavano said: My experience is in the aerospace world. I've been in meetings with Elon. There is no magic in what SpaceX is doing - their launch vehicles are using essentially 1950s technology (liquid oxygen and kerosene propellants, aluminum structure, etc). They aren't doing anything any different from other aerospace companies, except for the fact that they are very vertically oriented and that they pay their people for 40 hrs/wk and work them 100+. Yeah, that's a great way to get your direct costs down. If one does the math on SoCal labor rates, facilities costs, etc, and with their self-admitted 5000 employees, one can quickly figure out that SpaceX isn't making money either. Since they are not publicly owned, they don't release financial data. It's easy to lower costs in an industry if you are losing money in the process. It's not sustainable, however. Despite this, people who should know better think Elon is the second coming of Robert Goddard. I totally agree with Joe. I made similar statement to a SpaceX reference on social media and got lit up. Tesla is using 1980 battery technology (Lithium-ion) with modern microprocessors to get a 250 mile range (200 with A/C or the heater on). Quantum mechanics/engines is where the future is at and needs to be showcased in racing to get the current generation (Z and the millennials interested in motorsports and the auto industry again). All the oems vanilla cars are so similar that you barely can tell a Hyundai/Kia from a Honda, Toyota, Chevy or Ford. What is the true environmental impact of Tesla? There is no thing as clean coal technology. The environmental impact of the Pruis was real bad for the first generation. Not sure if the current one is better during it's manufacturing process. My work experience is IT Pro and college education in Environmental Science along with gearhead by birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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