Lifting a very large (and rare) engine?

[Chase392]

Hey guys,

 

    I've a got a little issue that I need some guidance with... I recently purchased a Seagrave F6 engine for a speedster build. I've got the engine home but getting it off the trailer is proving to be a challenge. All my previous projects have been more modern and I've always been able to move the engines around with a standard engine hoist.

 

My issue is that my monster T-head is over 5 feet long and probably 1500 lbs, and although my hoist has the capacity to lift it.... the engine itself is too large to set down between the legs of the hoist. 

 

My thoughts were to use a 4000 lb chain hoist and use trolley on a beam to move the engine.... and here is where my plan is hitting a snag.

 

I have to run a beam across a 16 foot span in my garage, supported at the ends only.... and I don't think anything made of wood will cut it. 

 

I think I'm stuck with the difficult (and likely pricey) prospect of having a 16 foot steel I-beam delivered to my house... and figuring out how to man-handle it into place.

 

Has anybody gone down this road?

 

Moving this engine around makes me nervous.... because although it is heavy it is also somewhat fragile... the crankcase and oil pan are Lynite castings and the engine was designed to "hang" on its mounts... the case and oil pan probably cannot bear the weight of the whole engine. The oil pan is already cracked and don't want to put more strain on it.

 

The engine is currently sitting on a large wooden skid that supports it on the ends below the engine bearers. I could set the engine and skid down on two large blocks of wood that would allow me to pull the engine hoist out and then remove the block from each end one at a time... but I fear this will put more strain the crankcase....

 

Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks 

 

 

[Chris Bamford]

Not so sure you need a steel beam -- a homemade beam of several 2x10s screwed together should be enough. Don't know how many, haven't a beam table handy on the smart phone. 

 

Anyway, imagine a group of 7 guys standing in the centre of your 2 or 3 ply wood beam... that's your 1500 lbs and it doesn't seem unrealistic. To me at least. 

[46 woodie]

I tend to agree with Chris in that three 2"x10"s bolted together would suffice. I'm curious on how one would repair the crankcase that is cast from Lynite. Lynite is a mixture of aluminum, copper, zinc and iron. I would try TIG but don't know if AC (for aluminum) or DC (for steel), is where I would set my machine, and what filler rod to use?

[Xander Wildeisen]

Here is a picture of the cart I made for the 1944 Lycoming V12 Engine I had out of a fire truck. I am sorry that I do not have a picture of it on the lift. But if you have a car lift in your shop, you can use the lift to pull the engine. And then place it on a cart made for it. If you do not have a lift, and have the the clearance for one. It would be a better purchase then a steel Beam. I use the car lift for pulling car bodies as well. A one man shop has to have a two post lift. If set up right, you can lift stuff up and back a trailer right under the object and lower it down. I also lift tools and equipment this way .

[JV Puleo]

The first thing I'd do is block the engine up by the engine mounts to relieve pressure on the crankcase. Then I'd look into one of those HF rolling gantrys... wide enough to straddle the trailer. I've used one to lift lathes and other machine tools off a trailer or out of a truck. Use that to lift it off and place it on a specially built card as Xander suggests. As far as the crack is concerned, look into metal stitching. I would not try welding Lynite but if you feel you have too, practice on a Franklin connecting rod or some other item made of the same material.

Edited November 27, 2016 by JV Puleo (see edit history)

[misterc9]

Or maybe you could dismantle the engine into easier to handle pieces. I've done that.

[Joe in Canada]

Your average engine hoist will not pick it up. They rate the lift at the jack where it attaches to the arm at a position no one would use. The further out the arm where the hook is the capacity drops drastically as you go out from the jack.   

[JACK M]

Find a guy that has a fork lift or someone that does tractor work and ask him if he has forks for it.

Mounting the engine on a pallet is the answer.

I shipped the identical Lycoming that Xander shows across the country a couple of years ago with no problems.

Note that it is supported on its proper mounts, you can support that weight on wooden blocks easily.

[Rusty_OToole]

I'm wondering if you could rent some kind of large motorcycle lift or jack platform, or large engine hoist?

[Chase392]

1 hour ago, Joe in Canada said:

Your average engine hoist will not pick it up. They rate the lift at the jack where it attaches to the arm at a position no one would use. The further out the arm where the hook is the capacity drops drastically as you go out from the jack.   

 

I'm pretty sure I can still get the engine off of the trailer with the engine hoist boom in the shortest position giving me 2-tons of capacity vs. 1/2 ton at the end.

 

Unfortunately my garage (although a 4-car) does not have room for a lift, and buying one of the large gantry lifts from Harbor Freight would leave me trying to find a place for it the rest of the time.... not too mention a $1000 is pricey for limited use. 

 

Dismantling it in place is something I don't want to do at this time.... although the pistons are not stuck... the valves are. I'm really not ready to start pulling it apart just yet. I do plan on building a custom cart for the engine once I can get all of the parts off of the trailer, as well a custom giant engine stand (inspired by the one for the Fiat S76 engine).

 

As far as the crack in the oil pan... that is for another thread down the road. I know enough not to even attempt repairing it myself, nor will I entrust it to some random local "aluminum welder". I need to get the engine off the trailer to see how bad it really is. The crack is in the curved forward portion of the sump, if anybody is familiar with the "Seagrave Speedster" build on the H.A.M.B. , my oil pan is cracked in the exact some spot as the old welded repair on his oil pan. 

[Xander Wildeisen]

1 hour ago, JACK M said:

 

.

I shipped the identical Lycoming that Xander shows across the country a couple of years ago with no problems.

 

Are you stating that you picked up that motor from here, and took it to TX? Or you shipped one like it? 

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

[Spinneyhill]

Can you make up a cart for it on the trailer and then find a way to roll it off? Ramps and a winch of some sort?

[Chase392]

5 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

Can you make up a cart for it on the trailer and then find a way to roll it off? Ramps and a winch of some sort?

 

I think pretty much anything I can do on the trailer is going to require me to lift it up....

 

The engine is so top heavy I don't want to even attempt to roll it down ramps, even the speed was limited with a winch.

 

It also occurred to me this afternoon that my ceiling isn't tall enough for a forklift to lift the engine... 

[Plyroadking]

6 hours ago, Grumpy's Auto Shop said:

An old Case 530 construction king! My grandparents have one that I spent many hours on during my childhood. I used it occasionally exactly like that! Had to watch it though as the hydraulics would settle.

[13CADDY]

how about a wrecker with a good boom ??

[Rusty_OToole]

7 hours ago, Chase392 said:

Unfortunately my garage (although a 4-car) does not have room for a lift, and buying one of the large gantry lifts from Harbor Freight would leave me trying to find a place for it the rest of the time.... not too mention a $1000 is pricey for limited use. 

 

Could you rent one?

[Spinneyhill]

Levers are wonderful things for small lifts.

 

I can imagine making a bolt-up frame for a cart, putting the four sides on the trailer around the engine, lifting and propping one end to put the cart end under and bolting that end and the sides together. Then the other. Make it wide (and heavy?) enough to compensate for top-heaviness. One could even add a top support for the engine. Once it is bolted to the frame, use the levers again and add the wheels. With chocks! You could make up something like Xander showed in post #4 but bolt-together and basically assemble it beside and under the engine as you lift it little by little.

 

Show us a picture of it so we can see how much space is around it in the trailer?

Edited November 28, 2016 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

[Bush Mechanic]

If using a timber beam, it's a good idea to use a pair of props under it close to the trailer. I use 4x4 timber props, with a batten each side extending past the base of the beam. Screw these on to keep them safely in position. I'm not familiar with Texas timber, but a 3x8 Australian hardwood beam would then suffice for that load. 

A cradle such as Xander suggested can be made with pivots each end with verticle adjustment, allowing for the shifting centre of gravity, as you strip the engine.

Good luck with it.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Bush Mechanic
Spelling (see edit history)

[JACK M]

22 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Are you stating that you picked up that motor from here, and took it to TX? Or you shipped one like it? 

 

Shipped one like it.

[Guest]

A good hook and sling tow truck operator should be able to help you out and at a reasonable cost.

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

1 hour ago, GregLaR said:

A good hook and sling tow truck operator should be able to help you out and at a reasonable cost.

 

Indeed.  First thing is to create the landing zone -- hopefully with wheels.

[Guest Grumpy's Auto Shop]

20 hours ago, Plyroadking said:

An old Case 530 construction king! My grandparents have one that I spent many hours on during my childhood. I used it occasionally exactly like that! Had to watch it though as the hydraulics would settle.

 I thought about finding a pic of a nice, shiny new Mahindra being used the same way, but it seemed inappropriate to this venue.  Besides, leaky hydraulics can double the fun!

[Jim Bollman]

I doubled up beams in my old shop for a lifting spot. My plan was to add posts on either side of the load I needed to lift if it exceeded what I thought it could handle full width.

 

I plan to do something similar in the new shop once I figure out the best placement. Looking like I may need two, one for loading/unloading a truck and one for engine pulling.

[edselsouth1]

This should do it!  My old shop wrecker.. .060 over 368 Lincoln, 2 speed rear. Holmes 850.

Edited November 29, 2016 by edselsouth1 (see edit history)

[Chase392]

As requested earlier in the thread, here is a pic of the trailer in my garage.

 

      Not how I wanted to show my new project to the world... but here she is. As I said before, for a home garage in city limits I've got decent space... what I lack is headroom. Since my garage is not sheetrocked yet I can tuck the beam up inside the ceiling and block the walls solid underneath for support. My father and I did some calculations and beam that fits the 2-ton trolley I bought can support a 5-ton single point load across the 16 foot span.

 

I reset the boom on my engine hoist tonight for 1-ton capacity (its a 2-ton unit) and it still lifts plenty high to lift the engine along with the 5 ft long piece of 6" I-beam I purchased to lift the engine from the mounts with heavy duty chains (2,000 lb rated)

 

I can lift my axles and frames with my hoist too but I don't want them taking up floor space until I can get the trailer out of there... thank goodness I borrowed it from a friend instead of renting 

 

I don't think levering the engine up will work, as you can see the engine mounts are not designed to sit on top of the frame... they fit inside the frame and lack a nice flat pad for levering against. In addition the front mount is mounted on a trunnion to prevent frame flex from cracking the crankcase... so it is not very stable.

[Spinneyhill]

Is that squarish tube across the top of the end cover with near vertical flats on the ends the engine mount? It should be easy enough to attach something to them with a base below to stabilise the engine? You could even make a spreader bar to attach lifting gear to them. Lift that end and slip under and attach to those mounts one end of a cart?

 

What are the mounts like at the other end?

[Chase392]

10 minutes ago, Spinneyhill said:

Is that squarish tube across the top of the end cover with near vertical flats on the ends the engine mount?

 

Yes, that is the mount that has the trunnion that allows it to pivot.

 

Here is a close pic of the mount ends.

[Spinneyhill]

There must be limits on how much it can pivot?

 

Are there holes in the mount ends? I think I can see one and I would expect another on the same line across the mount.

 

If you use a spreader bar you can lift that mount while keeping it horizontal. The spreader will have the lifting point in the centre and strops or chains or ? at equal distance each side to the engine mounts. That way it will stay upright.

 

How does the engine mount at the other end?

 

Anyway, before you can get at the engine you need to clear the other stuff off the trailer.

[Spinneyhill]

Just realised, if it hangs on the engine mounts the pivot must be somewhat above the CoG, else the engine would tip up in service.

[Terry Harper]

Ah... a familiar problem... mine was how to lift and move a 1500 lb Wisconsin T-head.

 

I ended-up building a wood skid for it that held the engine via the motor mounts. In this case the mounts are arms that are bolted to the top of the bronze crankcase.

 

The first time I had to move it we used a backhoe to lift it onto the trailer. I unloaded by levering it up and placing it on length od PVC pipe - using those we easily

rolled it into the shop. Later... when we moved, we loaded it the same way - improvised wood ramp though we upgraded to steel pipe. A few month later we moved it again

to its final home. Yes, the wooden skid is way over the top but... its what I had on hand.

 

Note that in the bottom photo  the motor mounts are not attached to the crankcase With the pan and crank removed we simply bolted the crankcase to a couple of stringers.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Terry Harper (see edit history)

[Chase392]

I've attached a couple of close up pics of the mounts.

 

     The pivoting front mount moves quite a bit more than you might think... easily 3-4 inches of travel. The previous owner mention trying to mount it on individual legs, and that front engine mounts movement caused the engine to want to roll over.

 

 

 

 

[Spinneyhill]

If it is bolted to something via the engine mounts, it can't roll over. If it did, it would always be trying to roll over in service. So just bolt something - skid, carriage, trolley - to the engine mounts. Terry's rig is the same principle.

[MCHinson]

I would simply use a tow truck with a boom to lift it and place it where you want it. Other than that, it looks like you have the frame. Could you lift the frame up and bolt the engine into the frame and use four floor jacks to jack up the frame and have four guys roll it off with the jacks?

[Restorer32]