cahartley Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I am on our Village Board. WHAT Board member gets plans to TAKE HOME?........ If they, or anyone for that matter, want to see plans that's what the Office of the municipality is for! OMG I'm glad I live where I live. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midman Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 I had to provide 12 sets of plans, applications site maps, I think i have over $ 100 in copying fees from staples. Now I may have to spend $100 more to get more stamped plans. Not to mention, the $2400 for the original plans, the $100 application fee, the 25.00 stamping approval fee from the planning office, $125 for the Architect to attend the meetings, I believe around $600 for the building permit which i haven't had the pleasure of paying since they haven't issued it yet. Now you know why you see so many tent garages around, even the big more expensive ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted May 26, 2017 Share Posted May 26, 2017 Wow! You should move to Kentucky! I have $600 in my plans (he gave me several copies and the electronic version) and $192 in a building permit for my garage. Sorry this has been such a difficult process for you. I would be going crazy. Just remember, when it's done....... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Some real progress finally made on my garage project. It's been a while since I updated this. I finally got everything through all the proper departments and everyone collected their approval checks, issuing a zoning compliance certificate and a building permit. I had the excavators come back and tune up the site since I had some erosion over the winter and decided to line the banks with shot rock to prevent future erosion. They work so reasonably I had them dig most of the footings as well for fear of hitting bigger boulders than my machine could handle. I was with them almost the entire time so I could make decisions as far as stepping the concrete and what not. I decided though it cost more money in concrete to go all the way down to natural grade for the footings so the project actually had to make 2 steps to get up to the normal frost layer. The mason or a helper came over and marked where they wanted dug, but marked it off not taking into account the posts were edge of the wall not center so I had some hand tuning to do. More than I wanted to but I managed. Then we got a couple of inches of rain and I had a pretty good wall of sand wash down so I had to go back out and dig that out. Finally today they finished framing in the footings and poured them. The mason said they will strip them tomorrow have me do a little more tuning and then form the walls up. Hopefully they are planning on pouring those next week he said. It feels good to finally see some concrete in the ground. I also found a Friend's crew I can Hire to put the shell up. They have to get his garage framed first, but they just poured his walls last week so he is about 3 weeks ahead of me. That's probably about how long they will take to frame his up. I'm hoping to frame and sheath mine in 4 weeks working with the crew. I'll use a roofing crew to roof it as soon as it's up. I'm still working on trusses. I'm waiting on a quote from a local company. I got one from a company 2 hours away for 17,XXX delivered. Assuming plus tax. Concrete was estimated at 12,XXX for the footings and frost wall. That will go up though as we went deeper than expected. I was also going to put 2 inches of rigid foam over the foundation outside and run that all the way around the building to the eves but have since decided to go with the foam layer inside. I will need less foam and besides the foundation foam won't need to buy the rest until I finish the inside. I can also put the siding on right away (which we have purchased over 200 1" by 12 " by 16 foot rough cut boards running around $10 each plus tax for board and batten siding) which my wife took advantage of and stained it all. Stain will run around $500 for them. We still have the batten strips to go as well. My supplier doesn't have them cut yet. He'll be cutting them from seasoned wood so I won't have to wait on that either. Hopefully I'll have it all up and be able to peck away on the siding early and late winter depending on weather. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Congratulations...patience patience patience does pay off...eventually. It's nice to see that sometimes, somebody in the city hall can/will make a decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 I know I feel like I should be celebrating, but we are still a long way and alot of money from having a garage to park my stuff in. Even a gravel floor one with no electric or heat. Still smiling today though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Well if you find you don't have enough room for that "Big Boy" I'll take it off your hands. I love that truck! Oh - the garage looks like it is coming along very nicely. Keep posting progress pics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 So far I've managed to shoe horn it in the current garage but space is closing in fast it seems. I'm going to try to keep posting progress and some prices so guys like me can get an idea of what this all costs in case they are thinking like I was. It was really hard to figure out prices on anything and most guys just bought a pole barn kit which I didn't want. This is slightly more custom to blend in with what's already here. I also wanted to post how the size worked and works out for real storage. Looking around it's hard to gauge how the layout and size translates into usable space and actually see the vehicles in that space. I plan to post some pictures with the shell or even just the foundation in so you can see how a large truck or the like fits and maneuvers in that space. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36 D2 Coupe Posted September 6, 2017 Share Posted September 6, 2017 So happy for your final victory over the bureaucratic slugs. Indeed it still has a distance to go but now it just involves money and time and not an opinion over which you have little influence. Congratulations! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 I got prices on Trusses from a local company and they came in a little cheaper than the company a couple of hours away. Looks like the 64 Foot trusses for my snow load zone come in at about 14,500 delivered. For the next snow load zone up which is 90 Lbs. , It's 15,500. For the nominal difference I'm going with the heavier trusses. Last thing I want to do is be in there when we are getting a rain after one of the nor easters wondering if it's going to hold. The mason was also back today. Stripped all the footing Forms and dropped all the panels to put up the walls. He said they will be back tomorrow to set the panels. Fortunately I was here and had my excavator as they had me dig several places along the foundation to put the cages with the forms in them to save them some work. I'm still concerned with getting the trusses up to the site. The mason who actually uses his boom truck to set trusses didn't think they would have any problem. That's been one of my biggest concerns so far. Let's hope he's right. I'll post some more photos tomorrow. It's been raining pretty good off and on all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 7, 2017 Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) More progress today. The mason got almost all the panels up. My guess is they should pour it early next week. Then I have to dig out the door way so they can come back and pour that. The strings I had run don't give you a feel for how big it will really be like when you see it with the forms in place. It will be nice to have all the space when it's finally done. Edited September 7, 2017 by auburnseeker (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted September 8, 2017 Author Share Posted September 8, 2017 1 hour ago, auburnseeker said: The strings I had run don't give you a feel for how big it will really be like when you see it with the forms in place. I don't know. That looks pretty big to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Hopefully there will still be some space for cars once I park all the equipment in it. I'm figuring one wall equipment, one wall cars and the center open to get anything out at any point without moving anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 More progress on my project today. I believe the masons have all the forms set and should be pouring Concrete Monday or Tuesday. I also contacted the fellow who is going to be doing my roof (actually the brother of one of my Friend's and ironically the guy we bought this house from) We figured it up and I purchased all the roofing materials today. THey have already been put aside on his account. I just finished going to the bank to get a check to pay for them. I'm working on getting my Plywood ordered Monday as we still have a good supply reasonably priced in the Northeast. I imagine after this second hurricane hits, all roofing materials will be very hard to come by and will definitely be more expensive. The roofer said his supplier has said their shipments are already being cut back and rerouted to Texas. I can only imagine how the amount will be affected after this second Hurricane blazes up through the country and restoration efforts get into full swing. That would be about the time my project would need those materials. I hate to have to think this way but I really don't want to be shoveling all my equipment out of the snow bank this winter and gazing out the window at all the concrete I paid for with nothing on top of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 You HAVE to think that way. What is that old saying ? Something like "Just because you are paranoid , doesn't mean circumstances AREN'T piling up against you". Here is another good idea : In large volume shops , wall off a relatively small volume , incredibly well insulated separate workspace to heat or air condition for actual projects and single car work. It can be high clearance for a lift , or not , in that case having an open loft above. You will find this to be extremely useful quite often. Heating or A.C. for a huge volume used primarily for storage could burn up too many "fun coupons". Good thinking ! You'll be zipped up by winter ! - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike6024 Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Standing seam metal roofing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Not in the North country unless you want to be killed when a 40 foot wall of 2 foot deep snow comes down on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Bollman Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 20 hours ago, auburnseeker said: Not in the North country unless you want to be killed when a 40 foot wall of 2 foot deep snow comes down on you. You just have to be sure the roof line is such that it doesn't come down by doors and walks. Had steel on everything when I was in NY and loved not worrying about snow loads or ice dams. Was scary when it slid off and the ground shook. You're right about killer if it hits you, especially if there is some ice build up on the edge to give an extra sharp edge. Some years I had 6" deep divots in frozen ground where it hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 One of my biggest, besides the one mentioned above , concerns with metal is also that the roof will slide. How big of a wall will a roof of 2 feet of snow 36 feet long by 74 feet long create once it slides? Then how will that be effected by freezing rain , then another foot or 2 of snow compounded on top of that? Sounds like a problem to me and realistically no good way to put gutters on a metal roof with sliding snow. I think we already had the long discussion of pros and cons of metal roofs before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 (edited) I have been holding off posting here, as I was in the middle of building a new car storage facility in southern Florida. Long story short, it was an absolute nightmare dealing with the city. I won't post the city here, as we are still trying to finish things up. For a one acre site and a rectangular building single floor slab, we had TWENTY SIX diffrent building permits. We were tortured with items beyond any sanity. They couldn't mind their own business as to design. We chose for no windows for two reasons, Florida sun burning the paint and upholstery, and hurricanes. They still wanted us to put in windows. We told them to shove it. Then they wanted us to put "fake" windows in........we told them to shove it again. We gave them a bunch of small victories. They didn't like the shade we were painting the building..."....yes, they had an opinion as to color. Let me assure you we built the best looking building in the entire neighborhood. The permitting cost approached ten percent of the project. We spent an asinine amount on extra drawings and engineering and kept getting things back for no reason. It was a fight every inch of the way. Example- they MADE us install a water fountain in a private garage with a occupancy of ten people. Now........it actually has to be two of them, one standard, and one handicapped, in a private garage. There were two hundred other Bull Sh@t items also, I'm sure they cost us well into the six figures on "nothing issues". After we installed the dual drinking fountain set up, the inspector said it was incorrect and didn't meet code for placement, style, and type. Interestingly we let the city pick out the fixture, placement, and install height. They rejected it as installed. We had used THEIR actual own drawings, and installed it as the drawings specified. After twenty minutes, they figured out we used all their paperwork and drawings and said, and I quote....."I guess it will be ok." I'm sure we blew our budget by more than ten percent on the locals busting our balls. Anyway, the garage is done, and it's getting its first test from Irma. We will see how it weathers the storm. I'm sure it will do better than my 100 year old house five blocks from the salt water, that has not been upgraded since it was new. It's interesting that the house has survived one hundred years without any upgrades. Edited September 10, 2017 by edinmass (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Good luck with the storm. Hopefully you don't get a direct hit and everything weathers well. I think the only reason they let me go ahead with minimal BS (as it seems now) is it's in the woods where no one can see it. You can barely see it from my house through the trees. I can only imagine what they would have wanted if I had decided to build it in the visible residential or retail area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC38dls Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I built a horse barn in the far suburbs of Chicago. The bbuikding department lost my plans three times. This is in a village with more horses than people or houses! I used the next size higher lumber than the code required. So if the code said 2x6 I used 2x8 and did this everywhere throughout the barn so it would not have a problem with the weight of hay or storms. Stupid me. I also used conduit for all of the electrical so the horses, mice, raccoons and other critters could not chew on it. Stupid me. When it came to the final inspection the super intelligent code enforcer said " it is not going to pass because it is overbuilt and therefore not to code requirements ". All of my arguments even showing him the code said a "minimum of...." did no good. I had to go to the monthly meeting of the town council, get on the agenda and bring a lawyer to get them to listen. They only did so when the lawyer told them he would file a suit and get every builder that had a problem dealing with them for the last 10 years to make it a class action suit against the building department. They approved the plans. The lawyer (a good friend) commented afterwards to the board he may still file the suit. The look on the board members faced was worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36 D2 Coupe Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Concerning the snow sliding off the roof, I had that concern when I built a shop on my farm 40 years ago. I was unable to configure the building so that the main 12' door was on an end. The builder suggested extending the roof out 3' beyond the eaves over the door area to keep the sliding snow away from the entry area and piling up against the door.. This worked well - we are in southern Ontario and can get heavy snow loads - and the biggest issue was moving the snow away from the door area after it had slid off the roof landing several feet away from the building. This may not be a viable option where you live but it worked well for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I have a 4 wheel drive tractor with bucket so moving snow wouldn't be a problem, but I figured why make it a problem by putting steel on in the first place. Also tough to move if you are away it slides then freezes into a block of ice. I know some people like steel others like me like shingles and both have their particular benefits. You just need to decide which benefits work best for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 Snow that accumulates on the roof of my 40' × 80' shed, here in central Wisconsin, never comes down all at once. It gradually slides down and breaks off in 3' sheets.......and sometimes THOSE make the ground shake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 More progress today. They poured all the walls except the front cosway which I will have to tear out for the final footing and wall pour as soon as they strip the forms and get them out of the way. I think they are going to start stripping them tomorrow. I also got my material lists into the local lumber yards for quotes and got one back. I'm waiting on the other which I should have in the morning, then time to buy some lumber while there is still some left to get. Lumber list works out to 171 sheets of 5/8 plywood 141 Sheets of 1/2 inch Plywood 264 2 x 8 x 14. There is some other stuff as well but those are the big numbers. The lumber yard guys behind the counter were all excited when I started giving them the numbers. I also got a revised truss quote for 6 on 12 instead of 5 on 12 with a 90 pound snow load and it's about 15,400. I believe that is almost the same number as for the 5 on 12 pitch. The truss place also said if I was going to go with a 2 x 6 wall I would have to put a bunch of extra bracing in, but by going with a 2 x 8 It's not needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted September 24, 2017 Share Posted September 24, 2017 Well we've made slow but steady progress. All the concrete is in the ground and I insulated the walls inside in preparation for my eventual heated floor. Now I started back filling, but have been waiting for my Friend to finish with his tamper so I can do it right. I did take delivery of all my Plywood to insure I would have it when needed. The price was actually going up the day I bought it significantly. The concrete came in at 14,500. The guy was happy I handed him a check in full just as soon as he handed me the bill. I need him to do the floor when I get ready so you want to make sure you keep on his good side. I had a little foam, but the rest of the foam ran another 1000. My lumber ended up coming in just over 10,000 for the list above. I also put a deposit down and the trusses are being manufactured. Unfortunately they are tentatively scheduled for the week of Hershey for Delivery, so I have to see if I can get them pushed back a week. The weather has been crazy warm here. Mid to upper 80's. I wasn't expecting to be burning my butt in the sun doing dirt work the end of September. It will probably start snowing when we start building. Anyways, back to the shovel. I have more backfilling to do today and alot of rocks to sort out. Crazy all this work and it's going to be buried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Seems like things are crawling but i have been making steady progress working every possible hour I can on the project. I got everything backfilled and tamped, then got 106 ton of stone delivered yesterday. That's 5 Tri Axle dump trucks. I spread most of that yesterday and finished spreading it this morning, then tamped it all. We moved the plywood units by splitting them in half as my tractor wouldn't pick up 56 Sheets of 5/8, and stacked it all in the center of the new garage space. Tomorrow looks like rock moving day. I have been making a few very large rock piles for future wall projects out of the construction zone. So far to date for what you see less the trusses which are coming Wednesday I have around 66,000 in the project and that's doing alot of work by myself. That does include 3 units of 2x8 x14 not shown and the roofing materials. I'm still fretting about getting the trusses to the site on Wednesday. I think it's going to be real tight to get the 64 foot trusses on the site. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alsancle Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 man doors, 2 garage doors? Looks big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 It's 60 wide by 72 feet long clear span. That's a 16 foot wide door on this end and though I won't probably put one in, a 12 foot door on the other end. Not big enough, but as big as I could squeeze on the hill without getting crazy with the grade (as it is I have 820 yards of fill) and all that my budget would allow plus a little more. That's doing it in phases. I'm hoping 100G gets my shell up and a floor. So far I look to be somewhat on target with probably a 10 percent overrun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Truss day today. I spent until after dark yesterday (the days are just too short) prepping the site. Including clearing 100 extra feet of power line and rock picking, then finish grading and filling along it, as well as cleaning up around the foundation so the truck would have all the room I could give him. I also fueled up and got both chainsaws running just in case. The first part (the 600 foot driveway) the driver pulled off without a hitch. Clearing the shed and then making the other 90 degree corner on it took some doing. HE did bury the truck into some small trees that got caught in behind the bumper, that I cut down. It just cleared the shed with inches to spare. Having the area cleared out around the new project was a big help so he was able to maneuver them into position well out of the way of the project. I gave him a nice tip for doing such a good job. Those are 64 foot long trusses, 12 feet wide. Good thing the axle is adjustable on the truck to shorten up the wheel base. Any bigger and I don't think we would have gotten it. It took about 1 and 1/2 hours total which wasn't bad. Now off to finish grading around the building. The drive came out the wrong grade so I have to cut over a foot out of it, to give everything a nice slope away from the building. I've got that part way done, then hopefully I can get stone for the eve trenches delivered Friday so I can get those dug and filled over the weekend so the site will be finished when the guys start framing on Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36 D2 Coupe Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 Your trucker has done this sort of thing before In a spot like this, these guys are golden! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Wildeisen Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 It looks like your house/shop is in a very nice setting. Buried in the trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 24 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said: It looks like your house/shop is in a very nice setting. Buried in the trees. Well it used to be until I decided to build the new walmart building as my wife calls it. LOL It's still pretty treed except along the power line. We've cleaned out around the house and drive and a front field. There is going to be some more, but it's more maintenance than clearing. With the trees all growing in so tight, none are healthy except the very mature ones. So I have been thinning out and leaving the best looking ones that seem to be in the best shape. My wife always questions when I say we need a piece of equipment, especially when I forgo the homeowner stuff and move up to the commercial grade, but then realizes the purchase I made was the way to go. We cleared another spot out behind the old garage today, where there was a pretty good hole full of 20 year old or less trees and I'm filling that in now with the dirt from the front of the new shop so it can be planted and mowed in the future. Also lets more light into the garage so that will be nice. I try not to cut too many trees and we will probably leave the perimeter of the property pretty densely covered for a buffer. Though we are bordered by the road with a steep forested bank that leads to a swamp, then the other side is a big horse farm. The back is 25 undeveloped acres, that I still hope to purchase a few acres of to maintain that buffer as it backs up the back of our house, being it's situated on the back corner of the property. One thing at a time I guess. I keep running out of that green stuff as well, and though it's heavily treed, i haven't found one to harvest those bills off from yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 19, 2017 Share Posted October 19, 2017 36 minutes ago, 36 D2 Coupe said: Your trucker has done this sort of thing before In a spot like this, these guys are golden! Thus the reason for the $100 tip I gave him. I told him the truss company probably doesn't have a clue as to the skill needed to get something that big where it needs to go. He has 70' trusses to deliver tomorrow, but they are going in the middle of a farm field for a barn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 28, 2017 Share Posted October 28, 2017 (edited) A comment was made on another thread about not underestimate the excavating work. No truer words can be spoken. I way under estimated the time to really get my site finished up. Not even Grass and flowers but just the amount of work to flatten a spot on a hill, then the drainage for the building and proper grading of the whole area. Seems all I do is get everything levelled off or graded properly, then dig it all up for something else. I put stone in for the drainage of the eves, fortunately only on one side, when a friend told me i really should use a coarser stone without the dust. So i had to dig that whole side back out, 20 ton of stone and fill it with a different type. Fortunately I just used the reclaimed stone in the driveway. I had to cut grade down in front of the garage 16 inches. That's alot of dirt to move with my small equipment. So much I now have a huge mountain of it and I filled in a large area behind my existing garage. I finally think i am seeing the light of day, which is good as my building crew hasn't showed up so I'm going to have to start framing it myself. I do have some more stone to put down but I think i have enough for the water to drain and not create such a mud pit like after the last deluge we had a few days ago. It's suppose to be 3-5 inches of rain in the next day and a half. I'll see if i have everything properly pitched. Of course the rocks have presented a bit of a challenge a well. All those you see and I buried alot of the others I found. My wife likes stone walls, so I have been stock piling them for future projects. Edited October 28, 2017 by auburnseeker (see edit history) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
36 D2 Coupe Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Takes some real patience to coax a cute woodland elf out of the forest to pose with those special stones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 She was only happy to get in the photos for a reference because I let her drive the excavator over to it's parking place and then drive the tractor up to the garage. Without that Carrot it might not have been as easy. Just kidding. Like most girls she likes getting her picture taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) So it's taken just over a year to go from this to this then this recently this and finally this THe framing crew is suppose to be here tomorrow. All this has cost a little under 40,000. That doesn't include a stick of lumber, just the concrete, gravel, excavating that I didn't do, not to mention all the excavating work I did. I think I put 60 hours on my tractor in the last 2 weeks moving dirt and stone around. Probably 30 on the excavator. It's starting to look like something though. We are getting some serious rain right now, so I'll see how my drainage works out for the driveway. I'll be real happy once that wood starts going up. I figured I would do it myself if they don't show up when the rain stops. Again never underestimate the cost or time to do the dirt work. Especially if you live in a rocky mountainous climate. The one saving grace was atleast I didn't have to blast or split any rocks. Edited October 30, 2017 by auburnseeker (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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