Solved one problem but now there is another

[lelshaddai]

So I finish the restore of this 62 Volvo PV544(well we know they are never finished) 

 

I pulled the engine and tranny and refreshed them. New gaskets, seals, lifters. I replaced the clutch, pilot bearing, throw out bearing and had the flywheel resurfaced. 

 

Old Clutch

 

Here is the problem: the tranny grinds from 1st to second and when shifting down from 3rd to 2nd. All other gears work fine. The tranny shifted fine before new clutch. Granted the old clutch was beyond the rivets. I had adjusted all the play out of the pedal. I tried the trick about leaving it in 1st with the clutch in and revving motor up to see if it would move but it does not. If I wait a few seconds with the clutch in it will shift. I know(but hope not) that it could be the synchros but it did not do this before. Any ideas would be great. I have tried many so far.

2. Severe overheating - again all the gaskets and seals were replaced. The car did not overheat before.
I replaced the water pump and change the thermostat from a 182 to 160. Both thermostats over heat. Here are the pics of the car temp after 12 minutes in traffic. I am running 50/50 antifreeze. I did notice the head gasket covered part of the water tubes in head but just a little. Granted I was driving in 110 degrees but it just flat out redlined on heat. It did reach 250 today at the sensor. 

 

Pointed at sensor for gauge

 

 

Pointed to head between 1st and 2nd cyl

 

Pointed to the water neck

 

 

Any help would be great. 

[ArticiferTom]

Shoot some temps of the inlet and bottom radiator outlet see what differential is . Maybe partial blocked radiator ,been there . You can scan radiator with it to see which side is blocked . I assume common stuff was check ie air bound ,and t-stat upside down . Can not help on clutch .

[misterc9]

When the transmission was out did you change the gear oil? Switching to a lighter gear oil in an old worn transmission might cause some of the synchros  to grind.  You could try thicker gear oil.

Edited July 15, 2016 by misterc9 (see edit history)

[lelshaddai]

It calls for 80w. But when I added to it before I pulled it I added 85-140. I could try it. It is the easiest thing to do. Not excited about pulling everything again. 

Tsat is correct. Bled air out of the system. I will look at the temps Fri. Thanks. 

[auburnseeker]

Slim both stats could be bad but did you let it run and check to see if they are opening at the proper temperature?  I've had  alot of newer stats that were bad right out of the box and wouldn't open.  

A really dumb thought and I don't even know if it's possible but the fan isn't on back wards so it's not sucking air through the radiator?  

[lelshaddai]

Not a bad thought on the fan, but it is correct. I checked the 182 tsat and it was opening.

[Fleek]

Hard to tell from a picture, but that top hose looks a little suspicious to me. With that hard bend, if it is older, the inside layer may be collapsing causing a blockage. Also you might remove both hoses and run water thru the motor and then the radiator separately to see which is blocked.

[auburnseeker]

Did you by any chance lay the new gasket over the top of the old one to make sure all the holes matched, just incase one wasn't punched on the new one.  You wouldn't notice it when you laid it over the head or the block but over the old gasket you would see it easier if you checked both sides.  Another wild guess but overheating issues can be frustrating (from personal experience) and often end up being something not too complicated even really simple that you overlook (I've done it myself)  looking for a major cause. 

Did you compare the impellers on the two pumps?  ( I probably wouldn't have myself unless obviously different)  Was there a real noticeable difference in number or size of vanes which can of course affect the rate of flow.  I've heard water flowing too fast is also a problem as it doesn't remain in the radiator long enough to be cooled properly. 

I believe on a good radiator you are suppose to have a 20 degree difference top to bottom when you scan it.

Good luck.  Let us know what you find. 

[28 Chrysler]

Your restoration looks good.

A 1/8" hole drilled in the thermostat may help if there is not one already there.

[padgett]

Key is whether inlet side of radiator is getting hot. Also I noticed there is no fan shroud, that can make a big difference at low speeds/stopped. Finally an engine running too lean will tend to overheat. Could be several factors not just one but with a 180F thermostat (and with that engine I'd run a 160F), it should not go over 190F particularly at idle.

 

ps in my experience it is usually the lower rad hose that collapses

 

pps a new clutch disk might drag enough to overpower old synchros but not be enough to move the car. I'd just drive for a few weeks and see if it changes. Do you have about 1/4" play in the clutch pedal ?

Edited July 15, 2016 by padgett (see edit history)

[lelshaddai]

This car style never had a shroud:) But it would be nice if it did. May not worry about my fingers. I replaced the thermostat with a 160 when it started overheating. I have tried to tune it out. Adjusted timing, point gap, carb. All the engine water ports where cleaned and blow out of debris. When the rad was out I flushed it with pressurized water and it flowed out the bottom at about the same speed. Only differences, after the work, I can tell is the new water pump and head gasket.When the thermostat reaches temp it is opening and the water is moving. The new head gasket did not line up perfect with the water ports in the back of the block. Two of them were half covered. I suspect now that this may be a problem also. 

[jazzer3]

Hello, I have experienced a blocked (NOS muffler with installed nest) exhaust system, another time late ignition timing.  Both events the engines got hot in a short time.

[lelshaddai]

OK. Did an experiment to check on cooling. I ran the engine in the garage, garage temp is 95. I have a thermometer in the rad with the cap off to see water temp.

1. At 10 mins Temp hit 160 and thermostat opened

2. 13 mins temp at top of rad is 171, actual water temp is 167, bottom of rad 126, sensor temp for gauge 212

3. 16 mins temp at top of rad is 180, actual water temp is 170, bottom of rad 141, sensor temp for gauge 223

4. 20 mins temp at top of rad is 183, actual water temp is 172, bottom of rad 157, sensor temp for gauge 220

5. Increased rpms 22 mins temp at top of rad is 187, actual water temp is 179, bottom of rad 145, sensor temp for gauge 230

6. 24 mins temp at top of rad is 190, actual water temp is 1181, bottom of rad 189, sensor temp for gauge 232

7. 26 mins temp at top of rad is 195, actual water temp is n/a replaced cap, bottom of rad 178, sensor temp for gauge 234

8. 30 mins, on stands in gear now  temp at top of rad is 184, actual water temp is n/a, bottom of rad 1175, sensor temp for gauge 230

9. 40 mins temp at top of rad is 181, actual water temp is n/a, bottom of rad 173, sensor temp for gauge 229

 

Heater putting out 150 degree air, when closed 135

[JWLawrence]

Check ignition timing and check distributor vacuum advance chamber. Retarded timing will cause overheating and a bad advance chamber will cause two problems: retarded spark and a vacuum leak. The vacuum leak will cause a lean mixture and contribute to overheating. These problems are frustrating. Good luck.

 

(o[]o)

 

[lelshaddai]

Timing is supposed to be at 10 degrees. I have it at 11. Vacuum on the carb and pot are blocked off. It is a retard system.  It was block off before when I received the car. The volvo guys run it that way. 

[ArticiferTom]

Where does you sensor get temp . And check it there . the radiator numbers look ok for dropping temp . But temp at sensor is high , or could it be wrong ?

[lelshaddai]

No, I do not think temp sensor is wrong. The sensor for the gauge is in the back of the head. 

 

[carbking]

I have not worked on a Volvo in almost 50 years, so do not remember; however:

 

British vehicles of this period generally used a Smiths thermostat and had a huge bypass. The Smiths thermostat had a sliding ring that slid as the thermostat opened to cover the bypass. Replacing the original Smiths with any other thermostat or removing the thermostat completely would immediately result in heating issues, as the coolant simply recirculate through the bypass.

 

Jon

[lelshaddai]

OK. Did an another experiment to check on cooling. This time without a thermostat. I ran the engine in the garage, garage temp is 100. I have a thermometer in the rad with the cap off to see water temp.
1. 0 mins temp at top of rad is 95, actual water temp is 95, bottom of rad 92, sensor temp for gauge 113 
2. 2 mins temp at top of rad is 116, actual water temp is 118, bottom of rad 109, sensor temp for gauge 131
3. 4 mins temp at top of rad is 131, actual water temp is 130, bottom of rad 124, sensor temp for gauge 163
4. 6 mins temp at top of rad is 145, actual water temp is 142, bottom of rad 137, sensor temp for gauge 178
5. 8 mins temp at top of rad is 155, actual water temp is 152, bottom of rad 145, sensor temp for gauge 190
6. 10 mins temp at top of rad is 164 , actual water temp is 158, bottom of rad 156, sensor temp for gauge 204
7. 12 mins temp at top of rad is 168, actual water temp is 160, bottom of rad 160, sensor temp for gauge 207
8. 16 mins,temp at top of rad is 171, actual water temp is 171, bottom of rad 162, sensor temp for gauge 206


Took it for a drive will I was still testing - 5 mins stop and took readings, 106 outside

9. temp at top of rad is 206, actual water temp is n/a, bottom of rad 189, sensor temp for gauge 251

I will take radiator off and clean out and do a different head gasket. 

[mercer09]

I would put vinegar in the rad and let it soak for a couple of weeks as in 3-4. have always had good success with that. would also leave the thermostat out till you solve the heating issue.

 

regarding the trans, would thin the grease a bit-can be done by adding a little atf. Also, you might consider double clutching to see how the shifting goes.

 

really really like your ride. you did a nice job!

[padgett]

If testing in the garage, try putting a big fan in front of the radiator and see if it makes a difference.

 

Have heard several things that would concern me - no vac advance, possibly blocked head ports.

 

OTOH coolant 100F above air temp does not sound that bad, any more would.

 

ps if there is a bypass, it should be visible when you remove the thermostat.

 

pps I like Stant Superstats, they open very fast

[maok]

IMHO, your radiator is working perfectly fine. 

 

As you mentioned, the issue probably lies with the head gasket not aligning well and causing the extra heat at the back of the head where the temp. sensor is located.

 

Could the sensor itself be causing an interruption of the coolant flow? And hence, heat building up there?

[lelshaddai]

It is an original OEM sensor. The carb does have vacuum and there is a pot on the dizzy. It just is not hooked up. I guess many of the Volvo guys do not hook it up. I will be taking the head off Saturday and see what is going on. The bypass is visible under the thermostat. So is one of the water tubes but the head gasket covers half of it. 

[Friartuck]

Quote

 

7. 12 mins temp at top of rad is 168, actual water temp is 160, bottom of rad 160, sensor temp for gauge 207
8. 16 mins,temp at top of rad is 171, actual water temp is 171, bottom of rad 162, sensor temp for gauge 206

 

I think this says it all, bottom of Rad is nearly the temp at top. Have Radiator professionally boiled and flushed.

[ArticiferTom]

Watch, Friartuck that was with out stat in, which causes fast above normal flow . Look at chart further above , it show a good differential .Looking more like engine internal blockage near rear . Although a good cleaning or back flush never hurts .

Edited July 16, 2016 by ArticiferTom
punc & add (see edit history)

[capngrog]

20 hours ago, JWLawrence said:

Check ignition timing and check distributor vacuum advance chamber. Retarded timing will cause overheating and a bad advance chamber will cause two problems: retarded spark and a vacuum leak. The vacuum leak will cause a lean mixture and contribute to overheating. These problems are frustrating. Good luck.

 

(o[]o)

 

 

++ what JWL said above.

 

I have a small block Chevrolet 350 cu. In. V-8 in a 1947 Chevrolet Sedan Delivery street rod.  I've owned the car for 10 years now, and for most of that time, the car suffered from mild overheating.  I ran a 14 psi radiator cap, and the car never got hot enough to blow water out of the relief or to unseat the radiator cap; however, I could tell that the engine was not at all happy running at its "normal" 210 - 220 degrees Fahrenheit.  All temperatures were checked, as you have done, with an infrared external thermometer.  I did the usual: cleaning radiator, changing cooling fans (mechanical - electric - mechanical etc.) flushed the engine block and all of the things one would expect to cure the problem.  Finally, (this past January) after searching various "gearhead" forums on the internet, I learned (I did not know this before, after all of these years of tinkering with engines) that retarded ignition timing can cause overheating as quickly as anything.  The original distributor on the engine had no vacuum advance feature, and when I checked the curve, I found that the timing was 12 -14 degrees late at approximately 1100 - 1600 rpm (these are engine speeds of relatively high vacuum).  That rpm range is right in the area of where the engine operates at a cruising speed of 55 - 65 miles per hour.  Rather than fiddling with the timing curve on the non vacuum advance distributor, I ordered a new one with vacuum advance.  WOW!!!  What a difference was made when the vacuum advance distributor was installed!  This installation was made a couple of months ago, and I don't remember the numbers exactly, so don't flame me if my figures are off just a bit; besides, I'm sure the numbers are quite different between a Chevrolet V-8 and a Volvo 4 cylinder.

 

The bottom line is that the car now cruises on a hot Florida day (90 - 95 degrees F.) between 170 and 185 degrees Fahrenheit.  Even in traffic, with the stock mechanical fan and no fan shroud, the car operates around 180 - 185 degrees Fahrenheit.

 

Good luck,

Grog

[lelshaddai]

I am still learning. I find myself making many mistakes. I just get frustrated because I do not know any better. I like to work on the projects but I am not very good at it. But I keep trying and make my mistakes. I just retired and this is my hobby. Not a mechanic in my past life. 
I just need to get this right. I have a Metropolitan that my daughter wants to use for her wedding. That is next but I need to solve this problem first to get this car out of the way. The only things I changed when I reassembled it was Water Pump, lifters, The vacuum advance was already blocked off, seals and gaskets. The engine and head were scraped inside(lightly to free up rust) and flushed and blown out with compressed air. I had a lot of debris come out. 
I have ordered a new Head gasket and it will be in Tuesday. 


If you go to this site you can see all the pics of the build.
http://s1101.photobucket.com/user/lelshaddai/library/1962%20Volvo%20PV544?sort=3&page=9

[padgett]

Certainly looks like the rong head gasket but could be opened up with a Dremel. I am suspecting you have a combination of problems. Is that a B-18D engine ? Two 1.75" SU HD6s ? 84x80mm (3.3x3.15" B/S) ?

 

Just off the top I'd say start with .035 plugs (points ignition), 50 degrees dwell (.015" or a matchbook cover), 12 degrees advance initial, should have 30-35 degrees total at 3500 rpm with VA disconnected and 10-12 degrees vacuum advance above 10".

 

Then at idle with VA disconnected open throttle sharply. Advance distributer until just get a slight ping then back off two degrees. Do not know what kind of gas you are running but 93 needs 2-4 degrees more initial than 87 PON.

[lelshaddai]

It is a B20B from a 1969 144s, It has been converted to a single 2 bbl Weber 32/36. I have it timed at 11 and plugs are gap .028, at this time it only has mechanical advance. The carb and pot are block. That was the way it was when I bought it. I have a new gasket ordered and it will be here Tuesday

[padgett]

That should flow about 8% more than stock and give a lot better MPG, Manifold may limit flow & center cyl may be a bit richer than ends. Is that protrusion for manifold heat ? Is pretty. Same stroke, 3.5 bore so may need a little more advance.

[GARY F]

what is the first picture of???

[lelshaddai]

That is looking down the thermostat hole. You can see the bypass on the left and how the head gasket covers the water tubes on the right. 

[auburnseeker]

I did see a glob of Silicone in that.  hopefully it just fell in when you pulled it apart.  If there is any of that floating around it will plug your radiator right up in short order. 

[lelshaddai]

It had falling in. I was very limited on the amount of silicone used. I will blow the head out again before I reassemble it. 

[Guest]

I'd suggest making sure that the water distribution pipe (#5 in the attached drawing) is in place and in good condition.  Sometimes, shops forget to reinstall the pipe and/or the pipe rusts out, causing a hot running condition on the B18/B20 engines.

 

Also, these engines do tend to run hot (as indicated on the dash gauge) at idle/low speeds, as the air flow through the radiator is not the best.  For my 122S, I added a thermostatically controlled electric fan with its own shroud to help keep the engine temp down in the 100 degree plus summer weather here.  I usually have no problem with high temp on the freeway, but that first stop after exiting will see the temp rise pretty fast on the gauge.

 

Since you have a larger engine with a radiator that's designed for a slightly smaller engine, everything really needs to be in tip-top shape to keep temps down.

 

My theory on the hot running of these engines is that currently available pump gas has an octane rating that is really too low for these engines as designed.  When they were new, mid- or high-grade fuel (100+) octane gas was recommended to prevent dieseling or run-on.

Parts Book.pdf

[lelshaddai]

Is there a way to look at this tube without pulling the welch plug? I agree she is warm but ok on the freeway but when I stop it pegs out. 

[lelshaddai]

Here are some pics of the distribution tube and the new head gasket with holes resized. I did not pull out the distribution tube. It looked great with no buildup at all. Nice and smooth inside. I am beginning to wonder if possibly the problem is in the water pump. I did change it out.

[emjay]

Did you confirm that the water pump impeller is designed to rotate in the direction it is rotating?  With serpentine belts pump often rotate counter-clockwise and maybe the wrong impeller was used.

[lelshaddai]

I will check on that. It is a v belt and the pump was made for this car. 

[Spinneyhill]

Is there actually a water distribution tube in there? It just looks like the casting to me.