Survivor? What is it really?

[Pomeroy41144]

I am working on a writing project and I need the members to help me with the term "Survivor" when it comes to antique automobiles.

What is it really?

What is a Survivor?

Looking for a clear consensus on the definition.

Really appreciate the help. Thanks.

[Matt Harwood]

As with any old car term, it's going to be used and mis-used by a lot of people (classic vs. "Classic") and "survivor" is no different. I believe Bloomington Gold even tried to copyright the term, and while I don't agree with that, I think their definition is probably the one that most old car guys would agree is proper:

The SURVIVOR

® Award is designed to recognize those Corvettes that are "worn in, but not worn out." A SURVIVOR Corvette is significantly unrestored, unrepaired, or unmodified and meets these requirements:

• 
  [*=left]Is over 20 years old
  [*=left]Can pass a road test over 10 miles
  
  [*=left]Retains OEM engine
  [*=left]Remains unrestored, un-refinished, or unaltered;
  
  • 
    [*=left]50% or more in three of four sections to attain SURVIVOR Bronze
    [*=left]66% or more in all four sections to attain SURVIVOR Silver
    [*=left]80% or more in all four sections to attain SURVIVOR Gold
    

[*=left]Retains finishes good enough to use as a color guide for restoration of a car just like it

[*=left]Judges inspect four components: Exterior, Interior, Under Hood, Chassis.

There are others who think the term survivor is any car that has managed to simply exist since it was built without being restored, but to me, a survivor still has to be functional as a car rather than some hulk that was abandoned in a field. Yes, it survived, but I don't think anyone wants to drive it anymore. The best survivors are cars that have been loved from day one, properly maintained and carefully used, but never wrecked or fully restored. They may have a few paint touch-ups or other repairs to keep them in operating condition and looking presentable, but they've never been disassembled and rebuilt from scratch. Some barn finds could be considered survivors, but not all of them.

In my mind, it's only a survivor if it's operational and usable and mostly original,which is why I think the Bloomington Gold definition is a good one.

Survivor:

Not a survivor:

Edited February 12, 2015 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

I think the term is meaningless except when specifically defined by a particular club for a particular marque such as Corvettes as mentioned above. You will find that there is certainly no clear consensus.

[Pomeroy41144]

Thanks. Found this thread:

http://forums.aaca.org/f169/what-survivor-293591.html

[JACK M]

If its sitting in a field it is dead.

If its unrestored and driving it is still surviving.

I think some dead cars could be revived, I guess that would be surviving too.

[joe_padavano]

If the word is used in an ebay ad, it means that the reserve price is about twice what the car is worth.

[A. Ballard 35R]

Apparently a 100+ year old car that has original components but has been restored once or more times is not a survivor. Seems strange. Why does a survivor have to be unrestored?

Any car that lasted in its original configuration through through the scrap drives of WWI and WWII sounds like a survivor to me.

[Bhigdog]

"What is a Survivor?"

It's a nebulous meaningless term, much like "barn find", used by car snobs who like to sound authoritative. In other words since the term itself is meaningless any consensus you may find is also meaningless..................Bob

[keiser31]

Apparently a 100+ year old car that has original components but has been restored once or more times is not a survivor. Seems strange. Why does a survivor have to be unrestored?

Any car that lasted in its original configuration through through the scrap drives of WWI and WWII sounds like a survivor to me.

O.K......this subject has been beaten to death, but to me, a restored car does not fit in the "survivor" category simply because the elements that were restored such as paint and chrome did not survive the years and had to be restored in order to look good. Now a car that has the original paint, fit and finish and is still drivable, that is untouched by a restorer is a survivor simply because it need not be restored and still looks good. That's my own definition and I am sticking with it.

[Pomeroy41144]

Let's look at my 1937 Ford and see if it fits the description.

The car was purchased by the second owner in 1939 and used as a daily driver until the early 1960s. The car then went into storage until it was sold to a collector in 1990. The car was then stored until 2012 when it was sold to me. The car was an unrestored original and non running, sitting in a garage/barn and warehouses for over 50 years.

Since the car did not run when I purchased it, some work had to be done to it to get it running. New spark plugs and wires, new tires, new hoses, new belt, rebuilt coil, rebuilt dist, new exhaust, rebuilt carb, new battery. The body is pretty much unrestored original paint with a few minor touch ups here and there. The interior is original. The fuel tank was restored to head off any future problems. The trans was rebuilt. The windshield had to be replaced for safety reasons. The car had not been driven on the street for over 50 years. The car would have likely needed these necessary repairs had it been driving the last 50 years.

So all I did to the car was some basic things just to get it to drive. Can one call this car a Survivor?

Thanks ahead of time for the replies and the advice.

Edited February 12, 2015 by Pomeroy41144 (see edit history)

[Guest AlCapone]

If the word is used in an ebay ad, it means that the reserve price is about twice what the car is worth.

Amen, Joe ! Or Barn find or running when parked and on and on ! The words have no integrity ! Wayne

[earl e rizer]

"What is a Survivor?"

It's a nebulous meaningless term, much like "barn find", used by car snobs who like to sound authoritative. In other words since the term itself is meaningless any consensus you may find is also meaningless..................Bob

Bingo! That's a great response!

[ghostymosty]

Let's look at my 1937 Ford and see if it fits the description.

The car was purchased by the second owner in 1939 and used as a daily driver until the early 1960s. The car then went into storage until it was sold to a collector in 1990. The car was then stored until 2012 when it was sold to me. The car was an unrestored original and non running, sitting in a garage/barn and warehouses for over 50 years.

Since the car did not run when I purchased it, some work had to be done to it to get it running. New spark plugs and wires, new tires, new hoses, new belt, rebuilt coil, rebuilt dist, new exhaust, rebuilt carb, new battery. The body is pretty much unrestored original paint with a few minor touch ups here and there. The interior is original. The fuel tank was restored to head off any future problems. The trans was rebuilt. The windshield had to be replaced for safety reasons. The car had not been driven on the street for over 50 years. The car would have likely needed these necessary repairs had it been driving the last 50 years.

So all I did to the car was some basic things just to get it to drive. Can one call this car a Survivor?

Thanks ahead of time for the replies and the advice.

Your car was NOT a survivor when you got it because it was not still in drivable condition, would have been considered more as a barnfind. It is now drivable so could now be considered a survivor but the rebuilt transmission would be iffy to some people for this descriptor, not me.

[JACK M]

Let's look at my 1937 Ford and see if it fits the description.

The car was purchased by the second owner in 1939 and used as a daily driver until the early 1960s. The car then went into storage until it was sold to a collector in 1990. The car was then stored until 2012 when it was sold to me. The car was an unrestored original and non running, sitting in a garage/barn and warehouses for over 50 years.

Since the car did not run when I purchased it, some work had to be done to it to get it running. New spark plugs and wires, new tires, new hoses, new belt, rebuilt coil, rebuilt dist, new exhaust, rebuilt carb, new battery. The body is pretty much unrestored original paint with a few minor touch ups here and there. The interior is original. The fuel tank was restored to head off any future problems. The trans was rebuilt. The windshield had to be replaced for safety reasons. The car had not been driven on the street for over 50 years. The car would have likely needed these necessary repairs had it been driving the last 50 years.

So all I did to the car was some basic things just to get it to drive. Can one call this car a Survivor?

Thanks ahead of time for the replies and the advice.

Yes, its a survivor. One may have had to go thru the transmission to keep it surviving, tune ups and rubber parts don't count against it either..

[Pomeroy41144]

Since the term "Survivor" is a registered trademark by Bloomington Gold, I guess it is a moot point right now.

The term can't be used in my commercial writing project. Glad I found it before my publisher did.

I was under the impression that it was a generic term. Wondering what other everyday auto related words will become trademarked?

I would like to thank all who were kind enough to reply and help me with this.

Pomeroy

[joe_padavano]

Since the term "Survivor" is a registered trademark by Bloomington Gold, I guess it is a moot point right now.

The term can't be used in my commercial writing project. Glad I found it before my publisher did.

I was under the impression that it was a generic term. Wondering what other everyday auto related words will become trademarked?

I would like to thank all who were kind enough to reply and help me with this.

Pomeroy

I'm guessing "Survivor" with a capital "S" is trademarked. I'll bet the lower-case survivor is not. Heck, ABC probably trademarked "Survivor" ten years ago.

[keiser31]

I don't know how someone could steal a word from Webster's and own it.

[carbking]

I don't know how someone could steal a word from Webster's and own it.

I wonder if Webster would publish a dictionary without the trademarked words, so us peons would not get in trouble for using these forbidden words.

Does it give an organization more credibility if the organization feels the necessity to trademark a common word???

Jon.

[joe_padavano]

OK, this whole registered trademark issue has piqued my interest (plus, it's a slow day at work).

First, David Burroughs, CEO of Bloomington Gold responded to a specific question about the trademark. Boy, does he come off like a smug ass.

Given that, I then checked the exact trademark registration at the US Patent and Trademark Office. Turns out that the registered trademark is for the specific term SURVIVOR COLLECTOR CAR. Feel free to use the term survivor car, or old survivor car, or whatever as much as you want. By the way, they claim that they invented the term in 1990, but the trademark registration was in April, 2014.

[keiser31]

OK, this whole registered trademark issue has piqued my interest (plus, it's a slow day at work).

First, David Burroughs, CEO of Bloomington Gold responded to a specific question about the trademark. Boy, does he come off like a smug ass.

Given that, I then checked the exact trademark registration at the US Patent and Trademark Office. Turns out that the registered trademark is for the specific term SURVIVOR COLLECTOR CAR. Feel free to use the term survivor car, or old survivor car, or whatever as much as you want. By the way, they claim that they invented the term in 1990, but the trademark registration was in April, 2014.

Gee....I guess I invented it since I have used that term since about 1980. Sorry I cannot prove it and didn't register the term as a trademark....

Edited February 13, 2015 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Yep !!

[misterc9]

It might be interesting to do the same check on "numbers matching car" or something like that.

[earl e rizer]

"First, David Burroughs, CEO of Bloomington Gold responded to a specific question about the trademark. Boy, does he come off like a smug ass."

These clowns involved with Bloomington or the NCRS are......, to be polite, jackasses. I've had the displeasure of running into a few members over the years as I did own a number of older Corvettes. Small minded egotists in love with themselves and plastic mass produced Chevrolet's.

Do yourself a favor and ignore them and their hot air.

[joe_padavano]

"First, David Burroughs, CEO of Bloomington Gold responded to a specific question about the trademark. Boy, does he come off like a smug ass."

These clowns involved with Bloomington or the NCRS are......, to be polite, jackasses. I've had the displeasure of running into a few members over the years as I did own a number of older Corvettes. Small minded egotists in love with themselves and plastic mass produced Chevrolet's.

Do yourself a favor and ignore them and their hot air.

I don't own a Corvette and likely never will, so I really could not care less about them. I was more curious than anything else about their trademark. Interestingly, if you read the actual claim at USPTO, it doesn't match some of the claims he makes in his response that I posted.

[60FlatTop]

George Carlin was going to make "survivor" the 8th word. He used six of the others when he found out Bloomingdale's got it.

Bernie

[Amphicar BUYER]

A survivor could not have been restored with new paint, interior etc EVER no matter how long ago. Just because it's 75 or 100 years ago does not make it done in the factory, it has been replaced, period! Standard wear parts do not count. Just because it was not running as in the case of the 37 Ford does NOT exclude it from survivor status (with a few repairs, it is a fully operational car). That is stupid as NO car could be a survivor in that case. Batteries, tires, bearings, fluids, brake linings, rubber parts (wear parts) are expected to be replaced at some point whereas paint and interior is not expected t be replaced. Finish (or at least some specific percentage intact), interior, major mechanicals (Engine , trans diffs etc) if not original to that car from the factory or it can not be made fully operational exclude it from being a survivor. This should be a SPECIFIC recognized term (AACA uses HPOF) not a generic BS term like "Barn find" or restored as it is a specific class of cars that should be recognized for what they are and preserved. You can repaint or restore as often as you wish but it's done in the factory but once.

One of my Amphicars has 4000 miles, never touched other than fluids and battery and is fully functional, it is a recognized HPOF by the AACA. Even if tires, generator, brake linings and hoses were all new it is still a survivor!

Edited February 15, 2015 by Amphicar BUYER (see edit history)

[bhambulldog]

"What is a Survivor?"

It's a nebulous meaningless term, much like "barn find", used by car snobs who like to sound authoritative. In other words since the term itself is meaningless any consensus you may find is also meaningless..................Bob

If it was a "Barn find Survivor with patina" it would triple the worth....

Joking, of course....

[earl e rizer]

I don't own a Corvette and likely never will, so I really could not care less about them. I was more curious than anything else about their trademark. Interestingly, if you read the actual claim at USPTO, it doesn't match some of the claims he makes in his response that I posted.

Well Joe I don't own a Corvette now either. For many different reasons, one being associated with those people in the Bloomington crowd doesn't appeal to me, or most members of the local Corvette club that is a NCRS club. This "survivor" business was the last straw for me. I realized how deceitful a few of the members were when I owned my 1963 Corvette.

I wont get into the specifics, but it turned me off completely on owning a vintage Corvette.

[bhambulldog]

If its sitting in a field it is dead.

If its unrestored and driving it is still surviving.

I think some dead cars could be revived, I guess that would be surviving too.

At the risk of picking at nits

I would call a revived car a 'Lazurus' car. Not a survivor.

[Guest BillP]

Here are my two stories:

When I was a boy growing up in small-town Pennsylvania, there was a large, handsome home next door. Behind the home was a carriage barn. Inside the carriage barn was a genuine stage coach. It was original and the dark red paint was faded. All the leather tack was there, and I think even a couple horse collars were on a rack nearby, but no horses. How it made its way to our tiny town in the Endless Mountains would make a great tale. Now that's a survivor.

My brother-in-law is the original owner of a '67 Corvette coupe; 435 HP, 4-sped, knockoffs, side pipes and only 7,000 miles. It sits in his garage. Twenty or so years ago he took it to a local chapter Corvette show. He got points deducted for grease on the door hinges. His response, "I didn't put that grease there, GM did!"

He hasn't shown it since.

[earl e rizer]

Here are my two stories:

When I was a boy growing up in small-town Pennsylvania, there was a large, handsome home next door. Behind the home was a carriage barn. Inside the carriage barn was a genuine stage coach. It was original and the dark red paint was faded. All the leather tack was there, and I think even a couple horse collars were on a rack nearby, but no horses. How it made its way to our tiny town in the Endless Mountains would make a great tale. Now that's a survivor.

My brother-in-law is the original owner of a '67 Corvette coupe; 435 HP, 4-sped, knockoffs, side pipes and only 7,000 miles. It sits in his garage. Twenty or so years ago he took it to a local chapter Corvette show. He got points deducted for grease on the door hinges. His response, "I didn't put that grease there, GM did!"

He hasn't shown it since.

Great stories! Thanks. I don't blame your bro in law for never showing it again at a Corvette Show. Instead of being enthusiastic about seeing such a car and encouraging the owner most members of those clubs are jealous and petty while the rest of them cut the car to pieces, then try to buy it for a lowball offer!

[misterc9]

eelludy You have hit the nail on the head and summed up the Corvette show experience for a lot of us.

[edinmass]

I have been in the hobby since 1971 when I was just a very young boy. I had never heard of the term till the past 5 to 7 years. It has no meaning. Usually applied to a car for sale that needs work and the price is too high from what I see on this site. I hope to never see or hear it again in the hobby. A car is a car. Nothing more and nothing less. It's condition is what is.

[bhambulldog]

I have been in the hobby since 1971 when I was just a very young boy. I had never heard of the term till the past 5 to 7 years. It has no meaning. Usually applied to a car for sale that needs work and the price is too high from what I see on this site. I hope to never see or hear it again in the hobby. A car is a car. Nothing more and nothing less. It's condition is what is.

+1

[earl e rizer]

eelludy You have hit the nail on the head and summed up the Corvette show experience for a lot of us.

It's too bad that it's a popular consensus, but it is!

[Restorer32]

I can't go to Corvette shows because I don't own a Mylar windbreaker and reflective sun glasses.

[Highlander160]

So back in the 1950s this guy chopped a Deuce coupe, added a Chrysler HEMI, painted it Buick Titian Red, fitted the trans with Zephyr gears and added a V8 quickchange rear axle. Inside he chromed the moldings and had a black pleated vinyl interior stiched up, all of it detailed with miscellaneous chroming and special finishes here n there. A show stopper everywhere it went and fast too. Last year someone finds it and cleans it all up with a bit of airbrushed touch up, some nip-tuck to the interior, lots of chrome polish and car wax. Once again, a show stopper everywhere it goes wearing all but the tires and hoses it was born with. What is it? A misfit from days gone by or a true HOT ROD survivor from the glory days of the past?

[60FlatTop]

I am reminded of a 1911 Selden, owned by a friend, Clarence Sharp, that I took pictures of at the 1974 or 1975 Genesee Valley car show. He lived on Atlantic Avenue in Rochester, New York. Clarence had a Model T Ford for touring pubs around his neighborhood, a 1904 Brush, under restoration in his driveway, and his prized Selden in the garage. I would stop by when he was working on the Brush, usually in a suit coat and holding things at arms length. He met two of my girlfriends, the wild one who liked to ride in the Model T if I cranked and the tamer one I eventually married. I was in my early 20's and he was about the age I am now, 66. He liked to proudly show the Rochester newspaper article from around 1958 that showed him and his car.

I could walk over to the Selden home historical marker in about 20 minutes.

For that car show, Clarence and his long time buddy, Skyrocket, towed the Selden with the "T" and got it started and spruced up for the show. When I got there the two of them were standing by the car looking pretty dishearted. One tire was soft and there was a puddle of water under the radiator. I think he perked up when he saw my girlfriend; probably took a glycerine pill. I got him and Skyrocket to sit in the car and took their picture. It was the high point of their day. That rough old Selden was not attracting crowds or conversation.

I guess that is one kind of survivor, a car that doesn't really fit in with the standards du jour, but has tons of sentimental value. The guys are smiling in that picture, as if they had made it to Pebble Beach. Survivors do that, you know.

Bernie

I just remembered, I think they towed it because the compressed air tank for the starter was low.

Update, I just showed my wife the picture of the Seldon online. She said "didn't they tow that car down the Ellison Park hill?" Yep, that's the guys, another kind of survivor. Surviving your friends bright ideas.

Edited February 17, 2015 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[JACK M]

So back in the 1950s this guy chopped a Deuce coupe, added a Chrysler HEMI, painted it Buick Titian Red, fitted the trans with Zephyr gears and added a V8 quickchange rear axle. Inside he chromed the moldings and had a black pleated vinyl interior stiched up, all of it detailed with miscellaneous chroming and special finishes here n there. A show stopper everywhere it went and fast too. Last year someone finds it and cleans it all up with a bit of airbrushed touch up, some nip-tuck to the interior, lots of chrome polish and car wax. Once again, a show stopper everywhere it goes wearing all but the tires and hoses it was born with. What is it? A misfit from days gone by or a true HOT ROD survivor from the glory days of the past?

That's "Old School"

Another word to be scrutinized.

[JACK M]

"Update, I just showed my wife the picture of the Seldon online. She said "didn't they tow that car down the Ellison Park hill?" Yep, that's the guys, another kind of survivor. Surviving your friends bright ideas."

Here, hold my beer and watch this......Been there, done that.....