oldford Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Crazy question, but I need some advice. I just received 4 beautiful new wood wheels for my Reo that need to be painted. The quote from the body shop was $350 per wheel for the job to paint them. That's more than I paid for the wheel itself!! I was told that Rustoleum has a new high gloss enamel appliance paint that dries hard with a gloss shine. Has anyone tried it, and how did it look when finished???Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 My guess would be that they aren't offering to paint them correctly or it would have been about $1K per wheel. To paint a wood wheel properly and make it last, you need to epoxy coat the wood first. Everybody has a favorite, but there's Kwik-Poly, West System, and such. That gives you a surface that will interface between the wood and an automotive finish, then you proceed with the paint process (primer, sand, repeat as necessary, color) just as you would painting a steel part.It's a lot of labor and having a wheel spinner helps when it comes time to spray. If it's new wood, don't shortcut now -- when it fails later then you'll really have a mess on your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I will offfer possibly a different opinion... but I know nothing about REO's. What method of painting was used on the wheels on the car when new? Were they dipped, or painted with a brush, or sprayed? I would do my best to replicate the original finish, not trying to create a perfect work of art that is more "perfect" than the car would have looked like when new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I had new wheels made for my Hupmobile (Calimers) and had a quote from a restoration shop of $3000 for the 4 wheels. When I asked why so high, it's because of the sealing, filling, and sanding that goes into getting a nice finish on the wheel.If you just seal and paint the new wood wheel, you'll have a grainy looking finish, I did a test spoke to see for myself, and the result is awfulSo, you need to seal the wheel (I use West system), prime it, fill it, sand it, and repeat about 2 or 3 times, until you have a smooth finish on which to apply paint.I decided to do it myself. I spent hours and hours and hours filling and sanding. A spoke wheel has a lot of surface area. After all was said and done, I had at least 10 hours in each wheel.So, your choices are 1) paint as is and live with the grain showing through 2) take the time and do it yourself (at least the prep work, the painting is the easy part), or 3) pay someone the time to do it right.Good luck.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 We would seal all wood with West System Epoxy then sand, sand and sand some more. We would then seal, primer, sand again and finally paint with a good quality single stage polyurethane. I cringe every time I see the word "Rustoleum". It is good for barbeque grills, lawn furniture and garden gates but not for anything automotive in my humble opinion. There is a reason it is cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Another vote for West System . And to give you a bit of encouragement think of this ; I refinished four old wheels scraping the wood with a cabinetmaker's scraper. So when I got to bare wood I was only 1/2 done ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 When your car was new they probably got 1 or 2 coats of cheap, fast drying black Japan lacquer like the rest of the running gear, chassis and fenders. They weren't expected to last more than 10 years and they were expected to show scratches, scrapes etc after they had been in service for a while. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franklinman Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 If, and that's a big IF, they are doing it right, that's a GREAT price. When we get new wheels, from Calimers if at all possible, we're looking at somewhere between $2k-$3K for prep & painting. That doesn't include any plating for lock rings, rim bolts/wedges, etc., plus new tires, tubes, and flaps or rim strips. Also it assumes that all metal parts, hubs, rims, felloe bands were properly sandblasted and prepped before the wheel was assembled. There's a lot to properly finishing a set of wood spoked wheels, as others have stated. Best advice is don't cheap out and do it right the first time. It's a whole lot more work to fix it the second time, as I've had several clients find out. Your comment regarding the cost of the wheels versus the cost quoted to paint them is the same as is often heard by restoreres from customers that complain that the restoration cost is more than the car is worth. The simple fact is that the cost to paint a set of wheels for a Model 'T' isn't a whole lot different that for a Mercer, Thomas, etc. It's just a matter of what it takes to do the job right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 Yes, I agree and don't think that original wheels from the factory in 19-ought or 19-teensomething had any kind of finish compared to the glassy finish many now expect in restoration.I also agree that, to have someone else do it, $3K is not that bad. The same shop I mentioned told me that they'd done a set of early wheels, delivered to them new wood, rings and all, and the bill was over $5K. To be rolling on nice wheels is frightful, by the time you figure new wood ($1200), new tires ($1000), and finish and paint ($1000-5000), it's something you might not want to tell your significant other...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 You could cut the cost in half by doing the sanding yourself. Any body shop would be glad to let the customer have that part of the job - if he takes responsibility for the result.I'll bet $100 to a cruller that anyone who does this, pays up without complaint the next time he needs something painted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trimacar Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 I would 100% agree with you, money notwithstanding.In other words, if you have the money, get it done by someone else.Me, I was too deep in my restoration of my '10 Hupp, so I did it myself. Sealed with West system, primered with good fill primer, sanded, primed, sanded, primed, tested with paint, sanded, primed, and I want to tell you, there's a lot of surface and a lot of angles on a wood spoke wheel. You think you're through, turn the wheel over and around, and wow...a new surface to sand......patience.....but it's tough....my 4 wheels took two weeks of part time filling and sanding, and then delivered to my painter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 You know you're just getting started about the time your fingertips start to bleed. Here's the process shown on a fresh Model T wheel:Epoxy on wheel half sanded.Primer filler applied.The epoxy used as a sealer takes care of the bulk of the filling of the grain.Fresh sprayed with color.Old spoke with sample of the previous striping.The completed job.This was taken a few years later after the owner had logged many miles -- still holding up. It's worth the extra work up front to not have to do it again. Automotive paint straight over wood will go to pot in pretty short order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 If you want to see how Ford built wooden wheels in 1919 watch this video. The wheels show up about 1:10. Closeup of wheel on car about 2:00. They did not take 2 weeks to paint a set of wheels lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Very cool. I wonder how many hands were flattened in that rim press at 1:28? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restorer32 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Whenever a customer wants to "do some of the work themselves" we supply them with a wood or preferably a wire wheel and a stack of sandpaper. We have yet to have one of them actually finish sanding a wheel. Usual excuse is they just couldn't find the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 If you want to see how Ford built wooden wheels in 1919 watch this video. The wheels show up about 1:10. Closeup of wheel on car about 2:00. They did not take 2 weeks to paint a set of wheels lol. My father worked at a Ford assembly plant in Detroit in the 20's. He would have nothing to do with Ford products till the day he died. Not that he hated the product just Henry and the Company.............Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 To respond to the original question, Rustoleum does make an Appliance Epoxy paint that actually produces an amazingly glossy finish. It comes in only 5 colors, however. The rub is that it is not recommended for ultraviolet light exposure (ie; for indoor use only). A member of the Model T (MTFCA) Forum is testing it outdoors to see how it holds up. He did a set of fenders with it, and they look very good. Here you can see a little video I did of my wheel painting rig.Regarding the epoxy sealer everyone is using: I assume this is brushed on? I know a piano refinisher that sprays on an epoxy coat under his lacquer finishes. I always pitied the guy that has to strip that off in 30 years.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Thanks, Phil for your help. I remember reading about the fenders on the Ford Forum. I had forgotten about that. I know all mean well with the suggestions, but somehow I just cant justify spending $1000 per wheel to make them look like glass. Remember, the Reo was a very inexpensive car and I just can't justify over restoring these wheels. I'll give them the best paint job I can give at the price I can afford...Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 It's not so much a matter of making them look like glass -- it's about applying a finish that won't crack. It just happens that the process has filling properties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) If you don't care about a show car finish Rustoleum may be a good choice. It is an enamel that stays soft and flexible almost like rubber or plastic. I have a VW back seat that was painted with Rustoleum over 20 years ago and it has never cracked or peeled.Wood tends to flex and to shrink and expand with the weather more than a steel wheel. The finish should be more like what your car came with anyway.Just had a thought. Wonder what kind of paint they use on wooden parts of boats and yachts? It should stand up to the weather. Edited February 22, 2011 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Want to know ? Epoxy .Same method as show in the series of photos . Nice work by the way Walter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) I like the boat finish analogy. Here is an interesting page that mentions finishes for new wood boats. They use marine polyurethane over epoxy for a clear finish, and "Awlgrip linear polyurethane paint" (I think that's like an automobile urethane finish) for color. The marine epoxies seem more designed to penetrate and seal the wood from moisture, but they also fill the grain so you get a smooth surface.[A quote from West System Epoxy website which I think relates to our car finishes:]Epoxy with two-part polyurethanes:Two-part clear polyurethanes are known for superior UV resistance and scratch resistance compared to traditional varnishes, but they have shown mixed results when applied directly to wood. They also tend to develop cracks due to expansion/contraction of the wood. Two to three coats of epoxy also provide a stable base for clear two-part polyurethane finishes. Applied over epoxy, they perform beautifully together and outlast either coating used by itself. Edited February 22, 2011 by MochetVelo (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 It occurred to me that boat paints must be made for brush or roller application by amateurs, and give a good finish without a lot of sanding. Also that they would stand up to sun, water, and even salt water exposure. So they should hold up on car wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Just a thought, were natural finished spokes a factory option on your Reo? They were on my Pierce and the previous owner went that direction. I have no experience either way but it seems that natural would be much easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 "a good finish without a lot of sanding " is never,ever going to happen .No matter what paint you use.Awlgrip ,the leading marine paint can be brushed or sprayed , or rolled & tipped.As good as it is ,it does not perform miracles.In order to look good it takes a lot of prep.A natural finish is not going to be easy either . Varnish takes about 12 coats or more,with proper sanding between coats, and would need to be re-coated from time to time . The bottom line is there is NO easy way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tgresto54 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I did 4 wood wheels for a 1906 Columbia. I did none of the spraying. I had about 4 hours each in stripping off the old paint and cleaning that up. 4 more hours sanding for filler primer for each wheel. 1 hour each for taping for prime. sand. pull tape. retape, prime, sand, retape, prime, sand,retape,sealer,pull tape,retape,paint 3 coats color, untape,color sand,retape,clear coat,untape,hand polish. Then after thurough drying retape and start work on painting the rims silver.. Time in each wheel about 60 hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldford Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Sorry, but the natural finish of clear varnish is not correct for the Reo. I know it looks better by today's standards, but I don't think too many companies in 1908 varnished the wheels. I know Ford dealers would supply unpainted replacement wood wheels that could have been varnished, but factory finish was paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 My understanding is natural finishes were an option toward the end of wood wheel availability well after steel wheels were more the norm, but even then it was a special request option on top of wood wheels already being uncommon. So, probably rare to see in reality.P.S.: Ken, thanks for the earlier comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1929Chrysler Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 I'm working on a wood wheel restoration project with my kids trying to spark their interest in the antique hobby. (Extra wheel we plan on displaying on the wall when we are done) I completely disassembled the the spokes from the rim and stripped the paint down to bear wood. Plan on powder coating the metal rims and finishing the spokes natural with Spar varnish as it will expand and contract with wood. Multiple coats of the Spar varnish with sanding and rubbing out the varnish when complete should produce a nice finish.Seems like disassembly of the wheel is a lot easier than tapping and trying to sand in the nooks and cranny's of each spoke. With it disassembled we can concentrate on each individual spoke easier than if it was still assembled. We've got about 4 hours of stripping and an estimated time of about 5-6 hours of finishing and rubbing and buffing.I like the natural finish of the wood wheels because it strikes interest with people. They say "WOW, you mean they were actually WOOD wheels!?" Which leads to my question. How many cars of the 20's were actually offered with the natural wood finish? Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronabi Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 There are lot of suggestions here about painting the spoke wheels. I have a REO too and I finished them myself. A lot of hours of sanding and filling. You treat the spokes like you would a finished piece of furniture. To fill the pores of the oak use what is called sanding sealer you can brush it on and sand between coats of sealer until all the pores are filled in. Then use a marine varnish or marine verithane for the clear coats same thing sand between coats. You can put color in the wheels and there is a diagram on the REO yahoo forum website that will give you details as to how the wheels are to be painted with the referrence to the striping of the wheels. The wheels should be the same color as the body of the car, unless you choose to do them natural. For a good example of the wheels visit the website REO Club of America Annual meets and look at the pitures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambarn Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 Marmon Model L and 78 and 68 were all offered with natural finish on the wheels, not sure about the pre 27 D-74 and E-75, mine have wire wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drbs Posted February 27, 2011 Share Posted February 27, 2011 What perfect timing. I didn't know what to do with my wood wheels untill I read these messages. I chose to take the challenge of sanding the wheels myself. I found two rims for a 1930 Cadillac that were painted years ago, and then I bought a little electric hand sander. Nine hours later I had the bulk of all the paint off on one rim using many pads of sandpaper, and dust all over. I still have one more wheel to sand, I'm glad I did it myself so far. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickelroadster Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Oldsmobiles from the early teens to sometime in the twenties were furnished with natural wood finish wheels. In their sales literature they touted this feature as showing that only the finest of second growth hickory was used. My fifteen Olds I aquired with the wheels painted. I second the Idea that it takes 12 to 15 hours a wheel to do a proper job of stripping and refinishing them. It was well worth it as they look very good. If I were to do it again, I could shave a couple of hours off the time as I am more experienced at it now. As Sam posted about Marmons, natural finish wheels were an option though my Marmon has painted wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Has anyone removed finish from wood spokes with media blasting? I mean with a milder media such as plastic, walnut shells or the like. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1929Chrysler Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Phil.. When I was a 16 year old kid I bought my '29 from my mother. My dad originally owned the car and he passed away years earlier. The car was just sitting in the garage. Anyway, after I bought it from my mom I became ambitious and decided to restore the wood wheels. Like most immature kids, I became frustrated and impatient with the stripping process so I decided to "SAND BLAST" the wood wheels. SURPRISINGLY, I did NOT damage the wood!! It did a hell of a job removing the paint and cleaned the wood beautifully. It took multiple coats of finish to fill in the pores of the grain but as I look at it today (24 yeas later) they are absolutely gorgeous. Not bad for a kid who didn't know what the hell he was doing!!I don't know if I was lucky or what but today I don't think I would do it and if I did, it would be with the much milder media you described. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MochetVelo Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 I think I'll test out the blast cabinet using plastic media on a wheel to see what the result is. My wheels were previously stripped and given a quickie coat of varnish.Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenHupp20 Posted March 3, 2011 Share Posted March 3, 2011 Phil, have you tried a 1" paint scraper ( "hook" type ) or a cabinetmakers scraper? If your wheels only have a quickie coat of varnish it should come off quite easily.The secret is to have the scraper nice & sharp.If the varnish ( or paint ) is a bit thicker, a little heat works wonders.This old tried & true method might seem outdated,but may save you some work once you get to the sanding & filing stages of your work . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now