PONTIAC1953 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 hi everyone, i just had a conversation with an owner of a old car body shop near branson,mo., and we got to talking about air conditioning, he said that at some recent car shows, he saw a guy going around cars with a freon sniffer, checking for presents of r12 freon, sniffer guy said that if he finds cars with r12 freon, he turns the owners into the epa, the owner gets fined $10,000.00, of with half is given to the sniffer guy for his work. the body shop owner went on to say that if the car owner didn't pay the fine, the car would be taken. is this in any way true ? i sure the heck hope not, charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor, poci Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFranklin Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I'm only guessing, but, I think if your car came with r12 freon there was no law requiring a change of gas to a modern version. most updates allow for grandfathering older practices such as no seat-belts and one taillight on older cars are still allowed many decades after requiring them on newer models. Heck I still use my arm for a turn signal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Wolk Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Sound like just another scare tactic. There are many millions of cars on the road with R-12. Leaking it unknowingly is not against the law, that I know of. They'd be more successful checking the cars at Wally-mart than at a show where people really care about their cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Interesting thought. I also agree with Jfranklin that if your car came with R-12, you did not need to remove the R-12. R-12 was just not sold in the US since the early/middle 90's to anyone without a license. Depending on the vehicle, the R-134A will not work in cars older than about 1995 depending on manufacturer but I know that many GM cars can be retrofited back to about 88 if my memory is good. As for the guy running around with the sniffer, he would get zero R-12 reading unless the system is leaking which if that is the case, then unless it was just refilled with R-12 just prior to the show, there would probably be noting to detect. I will ask around some of my contacts after the first of the year.Cheers to a great Christmas and Holiday season. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tcuda340 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 If you see someone venting R12 to the atmosphere, you can report them to the EPA or whoever and get a reward. Basically intended for service facilities that did not want to buy the equipment to reclaim the R12 back then. With the price of R12, no ones that stupid anymore to willing vent it to the atmosphere! It's actually now illegal to vent R134a as well. So that guy should go check all the R134a vehicles in the parking lot at the show as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xprefix28truck Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I would find that story to totaly false. With a permit you can still purchase it. I also own a "sniffer". It doesn't have a way to tell R12 from 134. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 No way,I think someone is pulling a leg or 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I would find it hard to believe that the EPA has enough extra people to send them to car shows. They can't catch big companies where the fines are in the tens of millions of dollars. They aren't going to waste manpower for $10K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest doberman Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Being in the hvac buisiness since way befor all this epa crap started. And buying allthe reclaimers and on my third sniffer of the $300 range. I have yet to find one thatcan tell one gas from another. There is no way this guy is for real. Besides that it has beenalready mentioned that it is not against the law to use r12 if you can find it or afordit.And if you think you will get the reward pick up the phone and call the epa tell them you saw someone blow the 12 out of there car and see how long you will be on hold befoe your arm gives out and you hang up.By the way there is something that most people dont know that Dow and allied didnttell you when they pushed the epa to ban R12 so they could sell all the tons of R134they had stock piled for the big squeez and that was there was and still is a directdrop in for R12 that can be had for less than 10 bucks a can and will mix right in with the R12. Cant remember the name off hand but if any interest I will look it up.there is also one for R22 Called NU22 but we cant by it yet because R22 can bemade untill Jan 1st 2010. And the chem co. sell all the stock pile of R410 they have.Anyway dont worry about this sniffer guy. He probly looking for some to sniff up his nosewitch a lot of people are doing these days.have a very merry christmas everyone. ALAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 Sounds like total BS to me too. Nowhere in the Questions & Answers on Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning from the EPA site is anything remotely similar to this. Feel free to read everything the EPA wants you to know about Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning at the following link:Questions & Answers on Motor Vehicle Air Conditioning | Ozone Depletion - Regulatory Programs | U.S. EPA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dynaflash8 Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 I've converted my 1971 Buick Riviera and my 1981 Buick Riviera to R134 with no problem, and the man next door has converted his 1978 Cadillac to R134 with no problem, just so you'll know it can be done way on back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 hi everyone, i just had a conversation with an owner of a old car body shop near branson,mo., and we got to talking about air conditioning, he said that at some recent car shows, he saw a guy going around cars with a freon sniffer, checking for presents of r12 freon, sniffer guy said that if he finds cars with r12 freon, he turns the owners into the epa, the owner gets fined $10,000.00, of with half is given to the sniffer guy for his work. the body shop owner went on to say that if the car owner didn't pay the fine, the car would be taken. is this in any way true ? i sure the heck hope not, charles coker, 1953 pontiac tech advisor, pociI think the guy has been sniffing more than freon................Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old car fan Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 It is easy to do ,no problem,bt no one is out lookingit is easy to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boblichty Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Rediculous, No one is making you take it out of your car if it is already in the car, IF the story is real, it is a nut case going around trying to act important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TG57Roadmaster Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Don't worry about that guy, he's got to improvise since his antenna business is falling off...TG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest doberman Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 For all those out there that are even thinking about retro to 134a dont go throughall that trouble.Johnsons freeze 12 is a direct drop in that is approved by the epa and can be had as easy as 134a.nothing to take apart. It will mix with oil already in the system why would any onewant to go to all that trouble retro fiting your system when you dont have to.I have been using this product for quite a while with no problems.Just google it and read about it. also if you have been properly lisenced you can get other freon that will drop in such as r414a and r414b.Have a merry christmas and a happy cooling season this summer for a lot less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 A word of caution. Some of the "drop in refrigerant" that is being sold is propane. I would be very careful and read the can before you put anything other than R-12 or R134A in your vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cben09 Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Larry,,,good post,,,, As i recall just a very few years ago,,,someone told that they had changed the Coconut Grove,,in Boston [club] over to propane or ???,,,The fire killed about 1500 people around 1944,,,The storys all didnt quite make sense,,,,til someone told about the new gas,,,perhaps as late as 10-15 years ago,,,maybee this is off thread,,,but my memory of WBZ reading the names for days,,we could see the red in the sky 20 miles away,,,Maybee best to forget this one,,but it is history,,,,Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R W Burgess Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Larry,,,good post,,,, As i recall just a very few years ago,,,someone told that they had changed the Coconut Grove,,in Boston [club] over to propane or ???,,,The fire killed about 1500 people around 1944,,,The storys all didnt quite make sense,,,,til someone told about the new gas,,,perhaps as late as 10-15 years ago,,,maybee this is off thread,,,but my memory of WBZ reading the names for days,,we could see the red in the sky 20 miles away,,,Maybee best to forget this one,,but it is history,,,,Ben492 out of 1000!!http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=6532185 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reatta Man Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 (edited) There is one other thing to consider.Any tool used to sniff for freon or any other refrigerant would have a metal tip--VERY good way to scratch someone's car. Since most car shows are run by a car club (lots of guys with the same interests) any guy holding a metal object close to a showcar paint job is likely to see his metal object become an anal-inserted gas-sniffing tool. And when the cops arrive, no one saw a thing.......Joe Edited December 24, 2009 by Reatta Man (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 A word of caution. Some of the "drop in refrigerant" that is being sold is propane. I would be very careful and read the can before you put anything other than R-12 or R134A in your vehicle.Although it is flammable, Freeze 12 appears not to contain any propane or butane (which is more common than propane in the cheapo substitute refrigerants). http://www.technicalchemical.com/msds/6000.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 There is one other thing to consider.Any tool used to sniff for freon or any other refrigerant would have a metal tip--VERY good way to scratch someone's car. That's not necessarily true. A sampling tube (or tip) of pure PTFE (Teflon) would be just as applicable, and although expensive the material is very commonly used when sampling for organics.This story is absolute hogwash, however. At best this mythic person, sampling in open air outdoors, would only be able to detect a/c systems with MASSIVE leaks that couldn't be functioning for more than a few minutes in the first place. Second it would take a mass spectrometer, and about an hour's time per car, to determine the difference between hits of R-12, R-22, R-144a, and/or an old leaky can of PAM spray. A field sniffer (as we used to call them when I worked with them) could only declare a hit, not make a determination of a specific compound.The next hole in this story is the interfering materials that'd throw off a field sniffer. An open bottle of bleach as far away as 100 yds. would make detection impossible for a field unit. But the best hole in the whole thing is the description of the guy using the sniffer. These things today are roughly the size of a cheap cell phone. You can hide one in the palm of your hand if you want to. If the EPA was evil and onerous enough to want to do this to your car (and if they could do it), you'd never find out about it until you got the letter in the mail.Some people fear our own government beyond all reason. I guess a lot of people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted December 24, 2009 Share Posted December 24, 2009 Some people fear our own government beyond all reason. I guess a lot of people do.Clearly it's time to break out the tinfoil hats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted sweet Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 is tin foil still legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Just a simple question:Can anyone forecast a stone rupturing a condensor coil?Even if you noticed freon is escaping (I don't care what kind), what could anyone do about it on a Sunday afternoon, in the middle of a show?Everything goes back to the earth at sometime. The only way to prevent refrigerant leak is to evacuate before it happens. That means window air conditioners and kitchen refrigerators will have an end date, and must be evacuated before they fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 SC, when did common sense and reason deter a government employee intent on justifying his/her continued employment? More rules and regs to enforce and collect fines, the better chance of staying employed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest simplyconnected Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Point expressed well, Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 And helium would do what??? Make it lighter?? Don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 I have heard that because automobiles 25 years old or older are heavier, Obama is requiring all such cars to have their tires filled by helium by January 1, 2010. failure to do so is punishable by a $10,000 fine plus the immediate impoundment of the vehicle. Has anyone else heard of this?And helium would do what??? Make it lighter?? Don't think so. I'd bet a good steak dinner that on some other forum right now somebody's repeating this like it's true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawja Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Hmmmmm well it would reduce the un-sprung weight..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Paul Christ Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 .A buddy with an old Cadillac put a little too much helium in his tires and had horrific results - BE CAREFUL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketraider Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 Kinda makes ya wonder what hydrogen-fueled cars might do, huh? H being lighter than He, the car might just lift off and float away...Hmm- helium-filled tires- helium atoms are mighty small and if there's a microscopic leak, they'll find it, same as an R134a molecule. I can see a whole lotta cars running around with slack tires. Maybe we should inflate our tires with R134a...Till the helium gets HOT of course, from extra friction of underinflated tires. THEN the helium-filled tires might lift the car off into the stratosphere..."Look mummy, there's a Cadillac up in the sky!" Brought to you by US Government Approved junk science...Thanks for a good laugh, Paul et al! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 (edited) ....and so now we've taken to deleting posts that we just don't like, like pointing out that freon doesn't occur in nature and that public officials are not above the law. Edited December 26, 2009 by Dave@Moon (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Dave, actually I think that the posts (both pro right and pro left) that were primarily political were deleted (including mine). Actually, a few more probably could have been deleted, and in my personal opinion, we would all be better off if this entire discussion were deleted. It was a crazy question in the first place, and only invited political discussion, which has now led to humor and political satire in the helium direction.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave@Moon Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 Dave, actually I think that the posts (both pro right and pro left) that were primarily political were deleted (including mine). Actually, a few more probably could have been deleted, and in my personal opinion, we would all be better off if this entire discussion were deleted. It was a crazy question in the first place, and only invited political discussion, which has now led to humor and political satire in the helium direction....Matt,Humor and satire directed at misinformation is neither pro-right nor pro-left. They're pro-reason, which I agree has been deathly absent from much of this discussion. Thus far there has really been only one overtly political post on this thread, and it was (eventually and thankfully) deleted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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