danleblanc Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) As I posted last week in the for sale forum, I had my 1970 deVille convertible listed on eBay. It got one bid . . . a dealer from New Jersey. Didn't meet reserve. I have no problem with selling to or buying an antique car from a dealer. After all, they're people trying to make a living also. His feedback on eBay as a buyer and seller is 100% positive. On Monday morning, before my auction ended, a friend posted a link on another forum to a 1978 Coupe de Ville on eBay. As it turns out, the seller was the same guy who bid on the 70. I let the auction run its course to see if any last minute bidders came to the table. Nope. So, on Monday afternoon, I called the seller of the 78. We talked about his car and then I mentioned that coincidentally he was the high bidder on my 70. We got talking about it and it turns out he knows the previous owner of my car and the car itself. Great. He wanted to re-review my photos and description. So, about an hour later, he made a proposal. It's a little less than what my reserve was on the 70, but more than his bid and the 78 was about $500 more than I wanted to pay, but in the end, I could live with it. This also includes me delivering my car to him some 600 miles away and picking up the car he is selling me and looking after brokerage all at my cost. Once again, I can live with that. We were supposed to connect Monday at 9pm to finalize the details. Texted him to confirm our phone appointment at 8:30, said he was busy and would call me back. 10:30 rolls around (11:30pm my time), so I sent a message and said I'm off to bed, asking if we could connect in the morning. He texted me back during the night and said he'd call me yesterday morning. In the meantime, a friend close by knowledgeable in 1977-1979 Cadillacs offers to check out the car for me. He's available yesterday and today after 4pm and but needed to know by lunchtime yesterday if he was going last night. Tried reaching out to the seller. Call goes straight to voicemail. Called again about an hour later, rings once, goes straight to voicemail. He calls me, says he's in safety training, will call me shortly and hangs up. A few hours go by, nothing. End of business yesterday, I checked in again. Said I want to finalize the details of the deal. Says he can't talk, he's on a ship. I said can we at least set up a time for a friend of mine to lay eyes on the car as I'm not overly knowledgeable about 77-79 Cadillacs. It's been radio silence ever since. I'm somewhat at a loss here as to what to do next. Part of me is thinking that he is trying to stall me because he is now thinking that the car will bring more if he completes the auction than what he quoted me. I really don't know. He obviously thinks there's meat left in my car as he already bid on it at the opening bid when he had to factor in transport, so now that transport is not a factor (I'm covering that) his offer is closer to his opening bid than my reserve, so he's essentially getting my car less than what his anticipated initial cost was. It's a quick, clean, easy deal for him. I drop off my car, look after brokerage, pick up his car and a check for the difference. Don't know how much easier I could make it. I'm your typical friendly Canadian just looking to make a change in my lineup, but this friendly Canadian is getting more and more frustrated by the hour. Edited August 8, 2018 by danleblanc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Just walk away from it. The ball is in his court. For a few years I watched a pair of dealers jerk people around like this. Some people are just incapable of saying, "No thanks" or "I'm sorry but I changed my mind" so instead they'll drag people around trying to wear them out when they really have no intention of following through in the first place. Regardless of whatever underlying psychological reason this phenomenon occurs, you are not at fault. You rolled out the red carpet and that's why it seems such a mystery to you. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 I would look closely at the ebay feedback. Is it based on buying a few small items recently? Is it based on actually selling anything ever? The "on a ship" comment makes me immediately suspect fraud. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) Actually, the ebay feedback is about vehicle sales! That's the part I find shocking!!! I've checked the guy out and he's quite prominent in the local newspapers for fundraising events and quite a community supporter. This is why everything is striking me as odd. Edited August 8, 2018 by danleblanc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_S_in_Penna Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) I agree with Matt above that the "ship" comment is suspect. If the seller was really planning to be inaccessible in so many ways, and wanted to make the deal, he would have told you, "Dan, I'm going to be away from August 2 to August 10. Let's either make arrangements now, or can you wait until I get back?" The fact that he doesn't return your calls tells me that he isn't responsible, and that he changed his mind without wanting to tell you. Don't rely on him at all. Edited August 8, 2018 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 John, that would be nice. If he has changed his mind, that's fine. Just tell me and we'd be done with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCHinson Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 It is also possible that the ebay account got hacked. I am aware of a situation years ago where an account got hacked and the fake seller then listed a bunch of stuff that looked like stuff the original seller would sell and ended up "selling" a lot of stuff before the actual ebay account holder got control of his account back. Getting the account back under the correct control took nearly a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 The "I'm on a ship" line is a big red flag. Who starts a deal or lists a car on an auction site, then disappears and becomes inaccessible right when he's needed most? He might know your car, he might not. He might be a sport bidder or someone who runs the overpayment scam on people whose auctions he wins on eBay. No way to know. But the fact that he was in communication until it became clear that you were going to be there personally, then mysteriously vanished onto a ship where he was out of communication (I'm pretty sure cruise ships have wi-fi now, and if not a cruise ship, what, a fishing trawler?), that all makes it seem like BS. Walk away, forget it, this wasn't a real deal, it was a fishing expedition. If you keep it up, he's going to use your eagerness and anxiety against you and you'll get burned. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
W_Higgins Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Whatever the case, even if you were able to persuade him to follow through, I've rarely seen it where the responsible party walks away satisfied after all the needless complication. Shake the dust off your feet and move on, then pursue that Lincoln that is beckoning you. You will be better off for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 This is just too irregular and suspicious. Keep the droptop, Dan, and drop this dubious deal. Devious disrespectful dude. - Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hill Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) Text him or leave him a voice mail (since he won't answer phone) and simply tell him that within 24 hours, we either scehdule a time to have his car inspected so we can clsoe the deal or let's forget the deal. If you don't hear back from him, then you have your answer. I don't waste my time with folks like him - either he is going to complete the deal or he isn't. My thinking is he has no intentions of completing the deal so i would walk away. Bob Edited August 8, 2018 by Bob Hill (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) Ebay feedback is based on positive and negative as a seller. As a buyer you can short change a pile of sellers before anything ever happens if it does and then it's still a mystery. No seller can leave a buyer Negative or Neutral feedback, only a positive participation award for paying for your item. I know it intimately as my feedback is about 21500 and there are more than a couple of customers that should have a negative strike. I finally started blocking problem bidders (this last month) who never pay or even worse have me gather up and box a big invoice then disappear. They are often repeat offenders. Ebay still collects fees on all those "successful" sales by the way. One of those guys had over 3000 feedback and was not a seller , only a buyer. Stuck me for 30 items totaling over 1300. Worse thing is his feedback is private and even being the seller that sold to him, I can't access it. That is a crock that anyone can make feedback private. What's the point of it, if no one can see it? Sorry for the rant. Though it's my business it really gets under your skin at times. Edited August 8, 2018 by auburnseeker (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Non-motivated buyers or sellers can wear you down, been both, dealt with both. Two days ago I stopped at a garage about 10 miles away and noticed a '96 Caprice sitting there. I told the mechanic I was putting a '94 Impala SS up for sale. He got all excited. I told him I was going to advertise it for $8500, but needed to put a seal in the AC compressor body. I'd knock $700 if he took it like it was. He asked if I would drive it over to show. Supposed to be yesterday, I didn't get around to it yet. Oh Geez! I just noticed I violated the cardinal rule of the old car hobby. I wrote the price. I meant, I gave the person a price and allowed a reduction if I didn't do a needed repair. He agreed that the price I gave was a fair one. So we were in agreement and if I sell it the sale will be for the agreed price. The way people are so secretive about buying or selling prices is comical at times. Bernie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 14 minutes ago, auburnseeker said: Ebay feedback is based on positive and negative as a seller. As a buyer you can short change a pile of sellers before anything ever happens if it does and then it's still a mystery. No seller can leave a buyer Negative or Neutral feedback, only a positive participation award for paying for your item. I know it intimately as my feedback is about 21500 and there are more than a couple of customers that should have a negative strike. I finally started blocking problem bidders (this last month) who never pay or even worse have me gather up and box a big invoice then disappear. They are often repeat offenders. Ebay still collects fees on all those "successful" sales by the way. One of those guys had over 3000 feedback and was not a seller , only a buyer. Stuck me for 30 items totaling over 1300. Worse thing is his feedback is private and even being the seller that sold to him, I can't access it. That is a crock that anyone can make feedback private. What's the point of it, if no one can see it? Sorry for the rant. Though it's my business it really gets under your skin at times. You don't understand that those are Ebay's customers, not yours. The Ebay buyer's experience must be perfect. Seller? Why would they be a concern? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_a Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Dan, thanks for telling us about your story. I don't really know what's going on, but it sounds like if it did go through successfully you would be doing most of the heavy lifting, with 2 international border crossings, you coming down on the price of your car and not getting a break for the other car. The part about "I can't talk I'm on a boat" while he's talking and on a boat raises some concerns. It reminds of a case where somebody paid for a car sight unseen hundreds of miles away and the seller started getting coy about talking to the buyer any more. First it was I'm studying for the bar exam; then I'm in the Canadian Coast Guard, on a boat. The other person might be a car dealer in New Jersey, or a lollipop salesman from Pocahontas, Arkansas trying to unload his cousin Vinny's Caddy for a better one. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) I'm not going to reach out anymore. Ball is in his court. I have a feeling as to how this is going to play out. He's seeing dollar signs right now. Listed the car Sunday night and got a flurry of bids right up until Monday afternoon. Bidding has now stalled. He'll let the auction time out and fail to meet reserve. I'll get a call Monday morning that will go something like this..."yeah, about that 78 Cadillac, will you still take it at the price discussed?" My response will be, whoa, back up the turnip truck. This is a new day the market has established the value on your car. I'll accept your offer on my car plus a 10% idiot tax, and I want your car at the last bid price (that didn't meet reserve). Pretty sure I'll be greeted with a click on the other end of the phone. This is the car in question and pictured is the car he would be receiving: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1978-Cadillac-DeVille/302833146540?hash=item4682431aac:g:FHAAAOSw8VNbZ5m4&vxp=mtr Edited August 8, 2018 by danleblanc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 (edited) Not that I want to change the course of discussion on this thread, but if anyone is interested in the 1970, I would be more than happy to take phone calls on it, do a walkaround on Skype, show operation of all equipment, even do a drive with over Skype with a potential buyer sitting in the passenger seat. I did this with my 61 Fleetwood that a gentleman in California purchased sight unseen. He's more than tickled pink with the car, and, when he got it, he said I was too tough on the car in describing it and that it was a multitude better than he expected when it showed up. I also helped him reduce his shipping cost by delivering it to a relative's house in Massachusetts (otherwise shipping from New Brunswick, Canada to California would've been a budget breaker). Now back to our regularly scheduled programming I'm just feeling super disappointed with the whole thing. I know that I'm at a geographic disadvantage selling this car, so when I had someone who I thought was interested, I started thinking great, this can work after all. Sometimes when people see the car is in Canada (far removed on the East Coast to boot), it's an impediment to purchasing. In fact, I'm only 35 miles from the Maine border at Calais, and have a good relationship there with a customs broker to assist the buyer. There are no import fees or tariffs they say on this car as it is returning to the US. The wind has been knocked out of my sails. I'll pick up and move on Edited August 8, 2018 by danleblanc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 My reading is that he has another sucker on the line he hopes to squeeze a few more bucks out of. If he can do that, he will drop his commitment to you in an eye blink. If the other buyer falls through he will expect you to honor yours. This is common, but I consider it unethical and I would walk away immediately from a deal like that. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 Rusty, this is sounding more and more to be the case. I wouldn't do it to someone but I can't stop it from being done to me. It's a business, I get it. But you also know what they say about karma! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cahartley Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Move #1 is google his email address and/or any other pertinent information you might have about him. This smells to high heaven like a scam....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 34 minutes ago, cahartley said: Move #1 is google his email address and/or any other pertinent information you might have about him. This smells to high heaven like a scam....... I Googled his phone number. It's interesting the amount of information you can get on a person for free on people in the US with one simple phone number. He's active in his community. Recently held a fundraiser for a teenage girl with leukemia, works on local car and boat shows. Found his home address, and much more. Based on his phone number he appears to be a real person. Been selling cars for 40+ years at the same location. I can see stuff he's bought and sold. Once again, all seems to be legitimate. I don't think he's a scammer (maybe that's the nice Canadian in me that gives everyone a chance), but I think he's a player trying to milk this for all it's worth and I've been relegated to a plan B as Rusty pointed out earlier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted August 8, 2018 Share Posted August 8, 2018 Your fellow Canadian Rusty' is wise beyond his years ! - CC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 8, 2018 Author Share Posted August 8, 2018 Well I'll be. The car had a reserve on it and wasn't met earlier today. Now it appears as if there's no reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Luddy Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 I would totally forget about this so called buyer Dan. As a fellow Canuck, I've listed cars on Ebay, had USA based phoney bidders, buyers or whatever buy them and have never heard back. Leaving me with a bill from ebay for listing fee. Will never use that site again as I've been stung once too often. Internet is full of fresh scams every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer09 Posted August 9, 2018 Share Posted August 9, 2018 no different then dating when youre a teenager- some girls change there mind- oh well.................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 11, 2018 Author Share Posted August 11, 2018 So, the seller never did get in touch again and he pulled the ebay listing early. Must've found someone to give him even more for his car (I was already willing to give about $2k more than what it was worth just because of the colour). Greed got me again. The 70 deVille is back for sale and will hit ebay again shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trulyvintage Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 " This also includes me delivering my car to him some 600 miles away and picking up the car he is selling me and looking after brokerage all at my cost. Once again, I can live with that. " Bad idea ... Once you sell you car - ownership legally transfers when you receive payment. You may not transfer title right away - but you no longer have legal ownership. If something happens to the car while you are transporting it - you have no insurance because you do not own it. Never offer to transport - deliver - arrange for either is you are the Seller. It just leaves you in a position of liability - it obligates you to guarantee the car you no longer own will arrive safely in the condition you represented it to be at the time of sale - that makes you responsible for any damage that you or anyone you hire - does to the car. Jim 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 So I listed my 70 again on eBay last night. Woke up this morning to two bids. Of course, I get curious and decide to check them out. The new high bidder has a 72 Coupe de Ville for sale. I read the ad and though, geez, that phone number sounds familiar. I looked it up in my phone and low and behold, it's the same guy who jerked me around last week - BIDDING UNDER A DIFFERENT ACCOUNT! I'm half tempted to cancel his bid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Half tempted? I would immediately cancel it and report it to ebay. The guy is not worth your time, well maybe he is, and that's why you are only half-tempted. For me, I walk away from people like that. Not worth my time at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Harwood Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Leave his bid there. The next guy has to beat him. Now that you know, you can always refuse to sell to him or cancel his bids later. But right now, what you want is eyeballs on your car and bidders trying to beat that guy. Let his bid stand until it's clear that he's affecting the odds of your car selling. Then cancel and ban and report. This early in the game, having a bidder will help, not hurt, your chances of a sale. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 13, 2018 Author Share Posted August 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said: Leave his bid there. The next guy has to beat him. Now that you know, you can always refuse to sell to him or cancel his bids later. But right now, what you want is eyeballs on your car and bidders trying to beat that guy. Let his bid stand until it's clear that he's affecting the odds of your car selling. Then cancel and ban and report. This early in the game, having a bidder will help, not hurt, your chances of a sale. Sounds like pretty sage advice to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 For the more advanced traders. I have had sellers turn down my offer and later contact me changing their mind. When that happens I always reply that I bought another car in the meantime but would still like to buy theirs, but can only afford X ( a lower offer). I usually end up getting the car for less than I offered in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trulyvintage Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said: For the more advanced traders. I have had sellers turn down my offer and later contact me changing their mind. When that happens I always reply that I bought another car in the meantime but would still like to buy theirs, but can only afford X ( a lower offer). I usually end up getting the car for less than I offered in the first place. So - you lie to save a few bucks ? Jim 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty_OToole Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Trulyvintage said: So - you lie to save a few bucks ? Jim It wasn't a lie. I was looking at 2 or 3 different cars. My first choice, the owner turned down my offer because he had only started advertising it a few days before and there were plenty of other people interested. I told him to call me if the other buyers didn't pan out and left my phone number. Then I went and bought my second choice car, an MGB that needed a lot of work, but that I got at a very attractive price. That is why I had enough money to buy the other car, although not as much as I originally offered. You don't have to lie. You also don't have to repeat the same offer after they turned it down. You can start over with a brand new offer. That is the point. If someone turns down my offer hoping for a better one, and no better offer turns up, that is a sign my offer was too high to begin with. You don't often get a call back in these circumstances but if you do it usually means the seller is ready to talk turkey. Edited August 14, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Yeah, I agree. I think you could say that is part of establishing market value for something which is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. And then again, there is that aspect, always lurking in old car trading, that to a greater or lesser degree, sometimes resembles trading hoss or hog. (And, speaking of such domestic animals, always remember what you learned back in 4H regarding the male gender of the bovine species : "Don't forget to scrape his solid excretia off your shoes". FAR too much of that gets tracked around some used car circles). - Farm boy Carl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Carl Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 I just can't help it. Having too much fun here today. I better go DO something before I get myself in trouble. Bye for now, - CC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnseeker Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 On 8/13/2018 at 10:10 AM, Matt Harwood said: Leave his bid there. The next guy has to beat him. Now that you know, you can always refuse to sell to him or cancel his bids later. But right now, what you want is eyeballs on your car and bidders trying to beat that guy. Let his bid stand until it's clear that he's affecting the odds of your car selling. Then cancel and ban and report. This early in the game, having a bidder will help, not hurt, your chances of a sale. I use to never block bidders for this very reason. I only recently started with just a couple that really didn't bid high and were problematic in paying. I have one right now that thinks I'm his pen pal, but he bids ordinary crap high and has been paying though he did cancel a high bid on something he tainted early on so it went for the opening bid of 2.99 because it was cancelled minutes before the end of the auction. (still not sure how that was possible). I even told him, leave the bid and I'll just take it off his invoice and relist the item, but he did it anyway. Same reason I allow foreign bidders though it's sometimes a pain as unless you look, you don't know how many items they didn't win but got you a premium for. As Matt said you want the greatest number of fish in your pond when you are fishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danleblanc Posted August 20, 2018 Author Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) At the end of the day, it all ended up being irrelevant anyway. Ended the auction last Wednesday. A gentleman who tried to buy my 70 reached out to me. I beat him to the car. There was a 3x black 77 Fleetwood Brougham from the same previous owner that came for sale last April that made me regret buying the 70 - I wanted it so badly but my available funds were tied up in the convertible. So, after a very little bit of back and forth, I'm delivering the 70 this weekend and picking up his 77 and a check. Deposit has been received, customs paperwork has started. Edited August 20, 2018 by danleblanc (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmhowe Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I like that: Two people ending up happy with cars they love. That's the way it is supposed to work. P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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