What Killed this Website?

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. Earl:

What did you try to search for??? I just tried it and got more than I bargained for. </div></div>

Well that too. I'm sure it's something I'm doing wrong but the "search" process is never very friendly to me. I recently wanted to pull up my Buick Pedal Cars thread on the BCA site. I highlited BCA-General Forum and I typed in pedal, knowing that if I enter "Buick pedal cars" I would get much more than I wanted by far, and it gave me nothing with pedal in the subject.So then I went ahead and typed in pedal cars and got everything with the word pedal and everything with the word cars. Can you imagine how many subjects have the word cars in it. Like I said I'm sure it's just me and I just need to spend some time figuring out how to do a search. I don't want to derail this thread by going off on this tangent though so maybe I'll just ask for some help with doing searches as another thread.

thanks

[Guest sixpack2639]

Lamar, if your looking for something in particular like pedal cars put it in quotes in the search box as "pedal cars" then the search engine will only reply with the specific items in quotes. Carl

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

Well, I'll be darned. I had read that in the advance search but guess I never understood it like that. Now to play around with +keyword and -keyword... Thanks Carl

[ex98thdrill]

$2.63 a gallon at the local gas station as of today.

[West Peterson]

[$2.63 a gallon at the local gas station as of today.]

That's enough to make one want to put that old gas-guzzling tow vehicle and trailer away and drive your more economical collector-car instead. That sounds like more fun, anyway.

Just trying to add a little humor, here. How's that, BillP?

[Peter Gariepy]

"Fun" is a relative term - eh?

I founded this forum over 9 years ago... (Yes, NINE!) Contrary to the subject line of this thread? this forum is FAR from dead ? as a matter of fact, it?s more alive than it has ever been.

Here are some THEN and NOW stats:

---Registered Visitors Per Day:

THEN -- Just a few dozen

NOW -- 500 a day, 2,500 a month

---Unregistered Visitors Per Day:

THEN -- 100s

NOW -- 4,000+

---Supported clubs:

THEN -- AACA

NOW -- AACA, BCA, CCCA and 15 more

---Posts Per Day

THEN -- 10-20

NOW -- 250-500

Let me take the liberty of comparing this site to the Hershey car show: What was a modest car show and swap meet in the early 1950s has become the largest gathering of antique automobile enthusiasts in the world. This forum started modestly in 1996 to become the internet?s largest discussion forum for antique automobile enthusiasts in the world.

Many complain that Hershey is TOO big? some say the same thing about this forum. My response to them is? poppycock!

Change is good -- embrace it!

I'm still having fun with this forum... are you?!

Thanks!

Peter Gariepy

WebMaster ? AACA.org

[29 Chandler]

Yes I am Peter. And I check in a couple of times a day. This website even gave my club Chandler-Cleveland a local place to chat. thanks.

And by the way where can I get gas that cheap? I just paid $2.69 a gallon. Can't complain too much though as my daily driver (Honda Insight) gets over 60 miles to the gallon. And its a fun car despite what many may think.

[Bhigdog]

Thank "YOU" Peter.........Bob

[nearchoclatetown]

Thanks Peter, I had hoped someone would have the statistics as you posted. But I think 37's comments are aimed at the 4000/day unregistered and 500/day registered visitors. Why so many visitors with "NO COMMENT"? If everyone is a car person, they should have something to contribute. There are many AACA questions that go unanswered, surely one of those 4500 can answer some questions. As much as I appreciate Neil's ideas about life, drunken and drug crazed as they may be, I disagree with the comparison of Neil's comment to 37. There is no one more knowledgeable about pre War cars or race cars on this site then he is, and willing to give that knowledge to help anyone. He's got something to say, maybe the 2 of you should be listening more. Rust never sleeps.Thank you Peter for all your time and effort.

[Guest Indiana_Truck]

I still check in every day when I can get in. Something happened and I have not been able to get on the forum for a few weeks now till tonight. Had to log in and didn't know it!

This site may have some problems but show me any site that don't. You can't make everyone happy all the time. Peter has done us all a favor even if we do need preperation H from time to time.

Bob

[Guest sixpack2639]

You are quite welcome Lamar, but I can't take all the credit. One of my kids had to explain it to me a while back.LOL Cheers, Carl

[Guest Hal Davis (MODEL A HAL)]

[quote

Here are some THEN and NOW stats:

---Registered Visitors Per Day:

THEN -- Just a few dozen

NOW -- 500 a day, 2,500 a month

---Unregistered Visitors Per Day:

THEN -- 100s

NOW -- 4,000+

---Supported clubs:

THEN -- AACA

NOW -- AACA, BCA, CCCA and 15 more

---Posts Per Day

THEN -- 10-20

NOW -- 250-500

I've been biding my time watching this one. While I have to agree the forum is not dead, the forum as some of us once knew it IS dead. Call it change. Call it evolution. Call it progress. This is probably exactly what the AACA would like to have happened, but speaking as one who used to read every single post and no longer can. It is not as fun as it once was to me. It's gotten too big. There has gotten to be too many people with too many agendas for it to be like it used to be.

[1937hd45]

I started this thread to get a reaction, so far there were 1239 viewers but only 51 replies, some were from the same member. I'm a car nut with an interest in Pre 1942 automobiles and ANYTHING related to them, I like racing and sports cars up till 1965, and Hot Rods. I'll be forever gratefull to a AACA Forum member for turning me onto another automotive website, one that is FUN! The guys that put the AACA site together have done a great job, we just need PEOPLE with an interest in cars to post here. I don't know what the numbers Peter posted are about. This past week before I check the Forum I see who is on. The MOST MEMBERS at any time were 26 with 31 guests.(NOTE: These members and guests are scattered over this AACA Forum and the red six cylinder Mustang convertible Forum) The other site had 205 members with 204 guests online when I started my visit. You can't have a conversation without peope in the room or on a Fourm. I'll always check in here, to see what is bothering people, but for a uplifting visit to start my day in a good mood I'll be at another site.

[Guest JT]

Hal, I agree that the numbers make it hard to spread your interest over more than one or two categories let alone marques. It just takes more time to get to the stuff you're interested in than it did in the earlier days and I wouldn't say the quality has gone up with the number of post.

[rgshafto]

I think this is a great site and log in frequently to see what's being discussed. It actually led me, and perhaps others, to become AACA members, so Steve, the club's investment in the site may actually pay off. I haven't actually met any of the regulars yet, but do hope to get to a show or two where I might do that. I feel like I know several of you already.

Thanks AACA, Peter, moderators and you regulars for making this site a valuable forum for us old car lovers.

[Twitch]

Hal & 1937hd45- There are some folks with mechanical questions and others that can answer and problems get solved. Good and interesting. Love the joking and fun. Have noticed a complete lack of meaty depth in car subjects in discussion for the most part. Other car sites geared to more modern stuff I've found have better, deeper disections of car subjects.

The main thing is respect. I got my Packard's exhaust system replaced by a guy I've gone to for years. He had a Packard once and took a crummy body/chassis and and a bunch of miscellaneous parts and built an nice, oh my, '50 Ford custom rod. I sat on the steps of his pit and we talked about cars while he leisurely worked for nearly an hour. Know what? In that time neither of us insulted one another or called each other an "idiot" for having a viewpoint that differed from the others'.

It's is very sad that a minority in this community simply can't refrain from flaming other people. Perhaps it's the anonymity of the internet that emboldens people to be abusive a-holes, I don't know, but it is abberant behavior nonetheless. It isn't tolerated in the brick and mortar world but it seems to get by, at least on this site.

The seatbelt/Dusenberg topic took off interestingly enough and some of the issues surrounding the event were kicked around but soon enough people were name-calling and the freaking topic was bouncing around locations like a Mexican jumping bean. Come on people. Act like adults. Be courteous and civil. The people on the Packard forum don't act like jerks compelled to say whatever is on their minds like small children do.

My reflections about this site are feelings of disappointment for the premier antique auto site in the world. I almost might accept a website with 22 year old fans of modified Japanese street racer cars conducting themselves like unruley, mouthy children. But the vast majority of folks here are late middle-aged men with substantial monetary assets relative to college kids with Hondas but they act just like them!

Websites of auto and other interests have all had the same problem that I visit. They have simply banned certain topics to discussion because at one time site visitors acted like animals on the forums. They have demanded courtesy on the part of posters with the threat of being banned if they continue to degrade others. There is simply an undercurrent on these forums of surleyness that will broach the surface in the basic form of "I'm right, you're wrong. Your're stupid, I'm so smart. The brownshirt party is the best and the kaiser's party is dumb. Nah, nah, nah!"

Hal, as you mentioned, it's obviously a cadre of people that come here with agendas other than good-natured auto discussion. I must wonder why the other sites I visit do NOT have or allow those kind of people. They certainly run without the discord that permeates some of these forums. And 1937hd I too go elsewhere to find good-hearted folks with wholesome attitudes and gentle interaction chatting about things devoid of the underlying hatefulness I find here. And yeah, this post will probably be deleted as other have been, but what the hay!

[Guest stude8]

I think like Mark Twain said "Rumors of his death are highly exaggerated", I still get a lot of amusement out of this forum. It is a refreshing lunch hour break from the day in and day out crisis conditions of my material control position with a medium size manufacturing company. I see lulls in the quantity of posts but think they may be weather related, too hot here in Chicago to go out to the garage after work.

For the local fuel report, I pass about 10 gas stations of various brands on US45 here on the way to work and the average price this AM was $2.79 87oct reg; $2.89 89oct & 2.99 93 oct prem. Saw inner city Chicago stations on TV last PM $3.09 87oct/$3.19 89oct/$3.29 prem!!

Stude8

[real61ss]

"I'm still having fun with this forum... are you?!"

To answer your question, Peter, YES I AM!!!!! I visit it every day, don't always comment, cause , most of the time, I don't have a comment but I still visit, read, sometimes comment but always enjoy. Thank you very much for the time and effort that you put into it.

[novaman]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">.... While I have to agree the forum is not dead, the forum as some of us once knew it IS dead. ....... It is not as fun as it once was to me. It's gotten too big. There has gotten to be too many people with too many agendas for it to be like it used to be. </div></div>

Hal, I think you said it better than I could have. I tried posting a reply last night but just could not get it worded right. So, I didn't post it. I tend to lend towards not quite agreeing with you on the "it's gotten too big part." Yes, it has gotten bigger than when we started and that should have been a plus. But you're last sentence there sums it up as to why it isn't as good as it could be and some of us don't consider it fun any more.

PeterG, I apprecitate what you have done for AACA with the web and forum sites.

With this thread the main things I'm hearing is about: posts and/or entire threads being deleted, name calling, EGOS EGOS EGOS, lack of humor/ too much PC. I'm not sure what the best answer is to solve all the problems is but here are a couple suggestions.

A "bad word" - moderators edit it out instead of deleteing post.

Bad attiude/ ego/ name calling - moderators post that we need to calm it and/or change direction of thread.

Deleting posts / threads

When modertors deem it nessacery to delete Swede's posts (or anybody elses) to send them a PM as to why and and that it was done. I think the gripe here isn't really so much that it was deleted, as it is the fact you come back and find it missing.

When the entire thread is deleted, leave a message why. When we had someone posting the same thing on ALL fourms, a basic message was left. It didn't leave you sitting there looking at a deleted thread wondering what happened. With something like "deleted due to sexuial content", "deleted due to too many egos", etc. if you've been following a thread and it turns up deleted when you get a chance to return to it, you've got an idea as to where it headed.

As for humor, can we go back to telling Howard we'll send him some KKs or after his hospital stay that now considered a threat and get us banned.?!

I know some of these have been done is some form or another over the time I've been here but they don't seem to be consistant in the way they were handled.

[R W Burgess]

Bob, Novaman, and Twitch, I guess I'll give you guys my opinion. I've been watching this thread with interest, mainly wondering what the big fuss is about.

As to the roudiness deleted(for lack of a better description), that's why Misc Chat was "kept" in the web site. It could easily been gone as some wanted it that way, but we realized that something other than car related posts needed to be somewhere. Of course you'll see the restrictions/rules at the top of that forum. I think the moderators are pretty lenient in that forum, but as was posted earlier, there's always someone who wants to stretch the envelope, then wonders why they got deleted.

Each moderator has a different way of handling things, some leave reasons, others "private message", but it all amounts to the same thing. One way or another, the poster gets a reason for a deletion. As far as deleting part of a thread, that's tough to do sometimes as it leaves holes with confusing posts. You'll never know how tough it is for us moderators to keep the web site clean and not lose our own temper and outlook about things. It can be depressing at times.

I see Bob compares this Web Site to a Rodder Site which I haven't checked out yet, time a big problem for me. But, I'll dear say that very few, if any sites, cover as many different clubs, topics, or areas of the "world" as this one does. As was said above, the site is evolving. Maybe for some, the fun is in Misc chat, which is probably as close as you'll ever get to the old days of the AACA Web Site. Enjoy that site, just don't abuse it.

We're a premier club, and we have to act that way, as again, the "world" is watching. I'm happy to see some are actually enjoying the web site. That's what it's for. Wayne

[Twitch]

Thanks! For what it's worth Wayne, I personally respect your opinion more than just about anyone on this site.

Now let's all act like adults and talk about CARS!!!

[stock_steve]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">"...I'm happy to see some are actually enjoying the web site. That's what it's for..."</div></div>

Definitely have been enjoying the site--including the photo forum, where I've enjoyed sharing a few picture-stories, such as my wife's '73 VW turning 200,000 miles:

http://photos.aaca.org/showphoto.php?photo=6299

http://photos.aaca.org/showphoto.php?photo=6300

and

http://photos.aaca.org/showphoto.php?photo=6301

Or her '73 Pinto turning 20,000:

http://photos.aaca.org/showphoto.php?photo=6229

http://photos.aaca.org/showphoto.php?photo=6230

and

http://photos.aaca.org/showphoto.php?photo=6231

Not to mention miscellaneous other photos from car shows, parades, and other stuff, that it has been a lot of fun to show off & share.

Thanks to everyone at AACA for providing this wonderful resource.

[ex98thdrill]

Twitch, after giving your thread some serious thought, It has occurred to me that a lot of the people with the in-depth knowledge on some of these subjects aren't online, and won't get online. As time progresses, I think it'll come, but a lot of the older generation of AACA members will not accept the computer. One of the things that I have found aggravating is to do an in depth restoration, come to this forum, ask questions, look for reference material, get no answers, and then as soon as you hit the showfield, have some a*%hole tell you something is wrong. In Colorado, we had some jerk (not a judge) tell us that one part on our car was supposed to be nickel and not chrome. I've made copies of every shred of documentation that was on hand at the AACA library, we've chased after the parts book, and we haven't found a single shred of documentation to prove this guy right or wrong. If this guy had been a judge, it could have cost us.

The restorations are tough, but to do something correct versus wrong usually does not take any more effort. When you're point judging a car, it is the fine little details that cost you points, yet that is the part that is hard to establish as to what is correct versus what it not.

In the past I have suggested the implementation of online judging schools and CJE's. Since then, Fred Young and his group have really taken the lead on this. Once established, this will enhance the Forum by providing a valuable resource, and will bring more knowledge to the car collecting hobby at the use of their fingertips, as well as preserve and share the knowledge for future generations to follow. As this advances, a lot of the repetetive questions about certain things will be gone because the answers will be right here on the forum.

In the three years that I have been a member of AACA, I've seen this forum change rules for the benefit of the club and its' members, and I've also seen the funds develop to put a new roof on the Library. If the forum was dead, these things wouldn't be happening. The forum would be better if some of these people would come forward and share their knowledge.

[novaman]

Wayne, I'd like to thank you and the other moderators for the work you all have done on the forum.

I am glad to hear that those whose posts do get pulled are notified. And the rest of your post makes sense.

I'm going to put away my soapbox. It's been fun, but for me that's gone so it's time to move on. Since I'm active in judging, you'll still see me there occasionally.

[ronbarn]

Good God Peter - Has it been 9 years? It just seems like a couple of years ago when you called. I well remember those first couple of years when you and I were trying to answer most request. The DF and the DFers have sure grown from then and any notion of being dead is truley in the mind of the beholder. Best wishes to all of the DFers. Father Ron

[Idle Swede]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> I am glad to hear that those whose posts do get pulled are notified.</div></div>

That's news to me, probably something he started this week

[Guest AlK]

I had one posted on the misc chat that was deleted and Peter H. notified me that it was going to happen. I had specific reasons for making the post and true it was not nice, no cussing or filth and foul, but definitely derogatory.

Am I sorry for it? Hell no. Would I do it again? Absolutely. The problem is that any person who initially posts something of a confrontory nature gets to keep his post out there. If you retaliate then your post gets deleted, that's just plain wrong IN THE MISC CHAT FORUM. In the other D.F.'s it's mostly civil and if it starts to get uncivil I have seen people move to the MISC CHAT which is where it should be. My own opinion(that and $2.75 gets me a gallon of gas) is that there should be more tolerance in the MISC CHAT than there currently is. I have never started an arguement, nor have I started any name calling just to see myself type, but I am not afraid to flame anyone if the circumstances warrant it and in the case of my deleted post, the circumstances warranted it. Bottom line the original instigator got to keep his derogatory comments for all to see and my rebuttal gets deleted, making it look like I backed off because what was said was true. That's just wrong. I think in any discussion there are going to be people who cannot stand to be dis-agreed with and they don't care about anything else. I don't mind if someone dis-agrees with me but if they do, come up with something in the way of rebuttal that i can see as making sense not just "I dis-agree with you because I'm more in tune with reality and you should agree with me because your not educated enough, or smart enough or don't go to the right church or whatever, just roll over and give in because I say so".

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Hi, Al...

As I mentioned to you, I fill in here as needed. Deleted the initiating post on 8/16 as I promised in my PM to you. Did you notice the action was taken before your post above?

You do have a legitimate concern, Al. What is fair is fair.

Regards,

Peter J. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Guest imported_MrEarl]

this site IMO is not dead and in fact it is the best d*** automobile site on line. My Buick hat off to Steve, Wayne and Peter (the moderatorators/administrators I am most familiar with) for their dedication, time and personable attitudes in keeping the site going. I hang around on the BCA Forum mostly but do enjoy the commentary and "characters" of this site.Whenever I have a general technical question I'll more times than not ask it here vs the BCA because of the broader wealth of experienced and knowlegeable folks that are here. I typically check in at lunch, at end of a workday and then once more before hittin the sack. The lunch break is just that in that it gives me a chance to get all the daily crap off my mind for a few minutes. I am a construction engineer and have had a project from hell this summer and believe me it's great therapy to get away from that and just talk old cars. So like I said before, Dang, I coulda sworn I been havin fun... and another thang...life is like a rollercoaster ride...only one big difference...you don't get to get back in line after the first ride......so throw up your hands, stand up in your seat every once in a while and ENJOY THE RIDE !!!!

[R W Burgess]

MrEarl, Construction Engineer?! <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Oh, Ok, you're from Georgia! At first, I thought you may have been in charge of the fiasco at the Maryland/Virginia line with the new(?) Woodrow Wilson bridge. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Traffic backups from...well you know what I mean. The poor fellow in charge of that project has a real need to come on here to get rid of his stress. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate the "flowers" too..from all of you. We all just do our best to keep everyone happy. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Wayne

[HarryJ]

ex98thdrill.....As to the nickel vs chrome thing; I don't believe chrome plating technology was possible prior to a certain date or model year, so he may have been using this as his basis to determine correctness. I am in full agreement with you that we need to tap (and record) this in-depth knowledge base that exsists within our club, this is vital in our quest to fulfill the mission of preserving the cars. I could sit arround the rest of my life and listen to some of you expound on how to fix a water pump, time a model "T", etc. Judging is not my thing, it's getting my hands dirty. We need to keep expanding this forum; obviously, it has had a very positive effect on the club from your comments. I'd like to see more pictures and video on this forum...say if the person with the post could post a live cam while we all comment on how to analyze and remedy the problem.

[Peter Gariepy]

1973HD45,

Let me let the cat out of the bag...

www.jalopyjournal.com (a car forum for those interested in modified cars)

Your enjoyment of this site is justified. I like it too!

On a technical side they have some cool features. I'll be updating our forum software before the end of the year. You'll like it.

On a community site... yup, they are more open. I like it!

I can learn from that site!

Peter

[ex98thdrill]

You see that's something that I wasn't aware of. Of course factory literature doesn't explain stuff like that. At this point, it isn't worth going through the expense to change it, but it is stuff that is good to do when we're doing another one.

[D Binger]

Pat,

Sorry to hear that you had worries about your 40.

What you are saying about with the finish on metal parts is what I was talking about earlier on this thread.

Here is what I said:

Then there are the those that have to answer every question. They are just posting to be posting and giving the wrong information about tech questions and judging. My thought is that bad information is worse that no information at all.

There are folks on this forum that do know the answers to this kind of question, but like myself, don't want to get into an argument with these folks who think they know everything. If they are like me, when they see these folks posting, they don't read them because of all the BS that goes along with it.

Dan

[Snappydwp1]

Well I just noticed that I made it to 100 posts, it took me over a year on this particular forum but I guess there's more interesting reading here than what I have to say.

[ex98thdrill]

Dan,

I never got the chance to meet you in Northglenn. I knew you were going to be there (Fran Shore), but would've liked to have met you.

As for the car, we got our 1st AGNM, the car is nice, and we're not about to replace chrome plating with nickel based on what an unknown person in the crowd walks up and tells us. Until someone can provide us with a reference that proves or disproves the correctness, we're not changing it. Of course the car does have flaws in it, we've gotten that car as good as we can get it with the parts that we can find. Of course if we can find things to make the car nicer, it will be done. In the case of the car, it isn't the money or the desire at this point, it is the availability of parts.

The downfall of doing restorations on orphan cars, is that we've had to salvage what we could to finish the car, and there's nothing out there to serve as a reference to assist with authenticity.

Either way, if you saw the car in Northglenn, and if you've seen the pictures, I feel that the car turned out very well for what it was. For an orphan car, with limited parts, limited funds, restored by a father and son in their own shop (who are ameteurs not professionals), in less than two years, that has taken the awards that we've taken, we've got nothing to be ashamed about.

I know Fred Young and the judging committee are working very hard to establish online judging and CJE's. Once this becomes established, the references needed and the answers to these questions will be there. The beauty of it will be that once these CJE's get in place, the car owner, the judges, and the membership will one day be on the same sheet of music, and everyone will benefit. Once this happens, the days of these people coming out of the closet and talking out of their lower anatomy will be gone based on the fact that the standard will be set. As long as the information provided is correct, these people who are talking to hear themselves speak will be obviously wrong, their ignorance will be known by all, and these people will probably simply walk away quietly with their tails between their legs.

Back to the original thread, is this website dead, .....NO!! But I can say that we are in a transition point, and eventually things will be better than they've ever been. ....but it takes time.

[Dynaflash8]

Lotta truth to what you say Dan. I think some of the folks who liked to "vent" are a little disappointed that they no longer have center stage. I like the nice level-headed chat I've seen on here recently. Would like to commend PeterJ and Wayne for the work they are doing. I introduced Wayne to the Forum when he was really rowdy.....darned if he hasn't turned into a real levelheaded leader on the form. He has even bought real factory wheels and hubcaps for his '56 Chevy......I'm proud of him <wink>

[1937hd45]

If you deside to take that '32 Coupe away from Wayne, please give it to me.

[R W Burgess]

Bob, The correct statement was buy$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And I do thank Earl for getting me involved in the forum, educating me about the AACA which introduced me to a talent I never knew I had, writing. The newsletter program has changed my life in both photography and newswork. See, you can teach an old dog new tricks. <img src="http://forums.aaca.org/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wayne