1953 Rodmaster 322 knock knock who’s home.

[195354]

The 322 in the Roadmaster has about 5K on it since I have owned it. I drove it to Spokane last summer with no issues then tried to make it to Strongsville this year. Ended up broken down in Sparta Wisconsin. The engine  made a noise like a  squeke for just a second then a knock. Checked a few things and sent the car home. Well it's pulled apart now  I found a  spun rod bearing.   I am working on repair options now here a re few pictures for you all

Steve 

 

 

[KAD36]

Glad you found it and nothing detonated.  Out of curiosity how had the oil pressure been?

[EmTee]

Crank doesn't look terrible - you definitely made the right choice to park the car in Wisconsin.  Hopefully there aren't any other surprises and you'll have her purring again soon! 

 

 

Edited July 22 by EmTee (see edit history)

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Anxiously awaiting the "WHY".

  Keep on keeping on.

 

  Ben

[1953mack]

"why" . . . previous engine re-builder . . . balancing . . . an early-1953 Buick internally-balanced V-8 engine that didn't have a harmonic balancer . . . drilling holes in the crankshaft pulley?

 

[Bloo]

I hope that was to correct out of balance only in the pulley. People can be lazy though, and Nailheads aren't the easiest things to balance, or so I hear.

 

I am a bit skeptical about it being the cause or the only cause. Any way the rod could have been oil starved? I'd get out the oiling system diagram and see just exactly how that is fed. It is probably fed from a main, and I would wonder if some hole is missing or misaligned.

 

Edited July 22 by Bloo (see edit history)

[old-tank]

HERE  is a discussion of why bearings spin, but I see no reasons that fit you situation.

What type and viscosity oil do you use?

[KAD36]

 

17 hours ago, 195354 said:

The 322 in the Roadmaster has about 5K on it since I have owned it

Coincidentally mine had 5K on it when it detonated.  Viva LaPoof 💥 🤣

Getting the popcorn, finding a good spot up in the cheap seats and looking forward to root cause and repair!

 

 

[EmTee]

17 hours ago, old-tank said:

HERE  is a discussion of why bearings spin, but I see no reasons that fit you situation.

What type and viscosity oil do you use?

Maybe a blockage of an oil passage caused by dirt/sludge breaking free due to incomplete cleaning during the previous rebuild?  Maybe try inserting a wire into one of the oil galleys and see if you remove anything not directly associated with the failed bearing. (i.e., oil sludge)...

 

[NC-car-guy]

wow   you've wasted no time.  Hope you get it back going soon!

[MrEarl]

Considering the ‘53 322 is sorta a one year 322 with I think different heads?  pistons, harmonic balancer, etc etc have you considered taking the opportunity to swap to later year 322? 

[195354]

Sunday update 

I spent a little time driving my 53 Chevy Convertible with my local car club Saturday. Left Eugene and drove down to Florence  this is on the beach it’s about an hour drive one way. We had  lunch watching the fishing boats and smelling the salt air. Felt pretty good to take an old car and have it return under its own power. This was about a 120 round trip fun run.

When I returned home I drove to Stayton About 65 miles from the Buick repair center. Returned home with a 1956 Engine out of a special They told me everything I wanted to hear. Now to see if it’s all true.  I plan on a compression test and leak down test before I do much. If this is in spec I will replace all the gaskets. While the pan is removed inspect the bearings. 

 

The 53 322 will now have a long rest most likely never run again.

Willie I use VR-1 valvoline 20-50 motor oil. When I had the pan removed  2 years ago I cleaned the sludge out and inspected one main and one rod bearing they looked good. If I could go back I should have checked them all might have seen an issue. From what I understand I could use latter Cyl heads and pistons in a 53 block.  The only reason for this is the location of the timing port in the block for a  show car. 

 

I will need pulleys  for the vibration damper.  The early 322 had a cast pulley so if someone can help me locate them it would be great. 

Steve 

 

 

 

[old-tank]

I wonder if that engine was a run on non detergent oil and then later the high detergent oil liberated some deposits to plug up your oil feed.

[EmTee]

From this thread: https://forums.aaca.org/topic/290549-type-of-oil-to-use-for-1930-marquette-engine/#comment-1582943

 

 

[195354]

Good read on motor oil, old debris released with detergent oil could have contributed to the bearing failure.

l am thinking that l need to look into upgrading the transmission. I know the latter years are better but they are longer. With a longer transmission it will move the rear wheels out of position, and the rear springs. Looking for any information on best transmission to fit this application and length difference. Thinking of engaging my Brother,we are taking about cutting the outer torque tube and the driveline. He fortunately has a machine shop and driveline service, balancing the driveline will be a challenge due to it not having U joint yokes for attachment to the equipment.  Or has someone went down this road and came up with a better solution.

Steve

[Fr. Buick]

Maybe go with a 55 trans instead?  It has a similar cooler under the trans, rather than in the radiator like a 56.  It will need to be from a bigger Buick, and not a Special or Century.  Be sure to get all the linkage going to the carb for the switch-pitch feature.  And the 55 output splines will for sure work with your original rear end.

 

You do not want to modify the drive shaft without first finding a way to balance it.  I had one modified by an idiot who tried to rebuild my ring and pinion, and it was out of balance.  I could not find anyone to tackle that issue for me, so I had to replace the shaft.

[MrEarl]

Steve i pulled my post re the differences between 53-54 engines as I was not 100% sure on a couple items and rather not spread wrong info. 

[old-tank]

2 hours ago, Fr. Buick said:

Maybe go with a 55 trans instead?  It has a similar cooler under the trans, rather than in the radiator like a 56.  It will need to be from a bigger Buick, and not a Special or Century.  Be sure to get all the linkage going to the carb for the switch-pitch feature.  And the 55 output splines will for sure work with your original rear end.

I think he tried a 56 transmission in his other project and  it was too long, so the easiest would be a  55 transmission from the small series.  The output splines are in the universal joint which can be swapped.  Cooler lines and heat exchanger can be swapped also.

Getting the driveshaft straight is a bigger problem than balance.  Remove the driveshaft from the pinion and make the cut there.

[EmTee]

Is there any later transmission/torque tube/rear axle combination that is the right length without modification (cutting)?

[195354]

Not much progress this week Projects around the homestead and work taking up my Buick time. Here are a few pictures of a 53 Nailhead piston for fun talk about a large piston  dome. The cylinder head has a very large combustion chamber for grande piston. 

 

Front cover and timing pointer look like they can transfer over to the 53 front cover. The cooling hook up is a bit different  on the newer engine. Once it checks out hope to swap front cover and water manifold over looks like parts should swap over. 

 

Steve 

 

 

[195354]

Ran a compression test and a leak down test on the new 322. One Cylinder was down on compression and it leaked down when tested. I decided to tear the thing down. 

Once I started pulling the engine apart it just kept getting worse. 

Engine sludge is pretty bad once the heads were removed I found have  quite a Cylinder ridge to deal with. The crank has stains and a touch of rust. The good thing is I have a Std crank and piston bore. So here comes the machine shop. The cam is also loosing the hard facing on a few lobes. I basically purchased a core for the repair If I was just driving locally I would not have looked this hard.  I was hopping to avoid replacing the pistons and cam to save on expense. I will have a very reliable 322 when I am done. 

 

Once this is at the Machine shop I will do more research on a transmission swap. Everyone is correct on the balance part of the driveline. I am going to help a car club member that has a 55 Buick that had the 3rd member replaced. The tech that swapped it could not get the driveline removed from the 3rd members so he cut drivelines  and welded them. Guess what it vibrates, the good thing is I have a few spare drivelines that might fit.

My brother owns a driveline shop.  He is working on a way to  balance and repair drivelines from a torque tube fitting it in his equipment is the issue. His equipment uses the U joint to attach and spin the driveline. He is working on something for the male and female splines so he can spin the driveline. The 55 will give me a chance to see were Buick made the change in the torque tube. If I cut one it will have to be in the front so the controls arms are not affected.  My Brother and I have been looking at this some and the controls arms are riveted on the torque tube cut the rivets remove the arms so the tube will fit in his lathe is the best option. Then use bolts for the control arms when attaching them. He seems pretty confident he can do the work and have it balance and runout be in spec. 

 

Steve 

 

 

[195354]

 

The engine is at the machine shop block and heads tanked nice and clean. Heads magnafluxed  no issues. Block and crank have not been checked out yet. I have been digging into the transmission swap. I have one here in my barn it came out of my 53 convertible it is longer than a 53 transmission.  I replaced it on the convertible project so the rear axle is in the proper place. This is about 2” longer as I recall. I found a post from 2012 from  MrEarl  I added it below. If I Read this the code on my transmission correctly it is a 56 unit. So I know it will fit a 53 other than length. Here are a few pictures does this look like a 56 transmission is this year a good option for my use. 

Steve 

 

 

 

 

Posted by NrEarl in 2012

Leif and I have been trying to complete the list of Dynaflow transmission code numbers for some time. The following letters are stamped on an aluminum plate low on the transmission (not always in the same exact place) on the left side between the main transmission case and the front pump housing. 

If anyone discovers a new letter that isn't listed here, please let us know what it is and what car the tranny is in. A picture would be great. 

H = '53 40 series

J = '53 50,70 series

K = '54 40 series

L = '54 50,70 series

M = '54 60,100 series

O = '55 40,60 series

P = '56 All

R = '57 All

S = '58 All

T = '55 50,70 series

W = '59 All

Edit) The above letters should be of help in matching up which transmissions came in which series and of what years AS THEY CAME FROM THE FACTORY. Because the part on which the letters are stamped are sometimes interchangeable between different series, they can not be considered as unequivically correct or absolute.

 

 

 

[Fr. Buick]

The aluminum bell housing suggests 55 or later.  54 and back are cast iron.

[JohnD1956]

I agree the trans is a '56 unit. I believe the difference is in the width of the bell housing. The bigger bell housing is for the switch pitch torque converter. But it should also have the fine spline torque ball. That may be a different length as well. 

I do not know if the torque converter and bell housing plus the universal and coarse spline torque ball interchange. But sans the 56 torque converter I question how much benefit there is to the swap. 

I do not have my 56 manual at this moment but I believe all 56 Buicks had 3.36 rear gear ratio. I don't know what your 53 has. If it is the same then I would suggest a trans swap with a 56 trans and a 53 Torque converter will be of little performance or reliability value.  

As always, I will say I could be completely incorrect in this post as I do not have directly related experience in this.

Good luck Steve.

[EmTee]

1 hour ago, JohnD1956 said:

I believe the difference is in the width of the bell housing. The bigger bell housing is for the switch pitch torque converter.

Will the bell housing clear the firewall and floorpan without modification?  That's something else to consider.  I think John has a good point regarding to the real performance benefit for the swap.  The fresh engine and rebuilt original transmission should restore original the original performance.

 

That said, if there's a particular year/model of torque-tube/rear axle that is the proper length (and spline interface) to accept the '56 transmission, then I might reconsider...

[195354]

Machine shop has polished the crankshaft it’s in great shape will take standard rods and mains. In the gathering parts mode now. Located pulleys for the dampener its needed because the 53 engine has a cast crank pulley. I am going to use the camshaft and lifters from the 56. Cleaning the lifters now, they have sludge in them like everything else. The lifters have stuck plungers, l used an arbor press and a socket to free them up. I will send the lifters and camshaft out for a regrind. When l receive the parts l will disassemble the lifters again for a final cleaning. I am thinking this a better option than off shore parts. 
Steve 

[EmTee]

Thanks for the update!  Any word on the block/cylinder bores?  Do you know what size pistons you'll need?

[195354]

Everything is in good shape other than it's been used and abused 

will take .040 over pistons due to the wear in the cylinders 

Can’t wait for completion it’s embarrassing driving the standby car

Steve

 

 

 

[Buicknutty]

On 9/1/2024 at 7:19 AM, JohnD1956 said:

I agree the trans is a '56 unit. I believe the difference is in the width of the bell housing. The bigger bell housing is for the switch pitch torque converter. But it should also have the fine spline torque ball. That may be a different length as well. 

I do not know if the torque converter and bell housing plus the universal and coarse spline torque ball interchange. But sans the 56 torque converter I question how much benefit there is to the swap. 

I do not have my 56 manual at this moment but I believe all 56 Buicks had 3.36 rear gear ratio. I don't know what your 53 has. If it is the same then I would suggest a trans swap with a 56 trans and a 53 Torque converter will be of little performance or reliability value.  

As always, I will say I could be completely incorrect in this post as I do not have directly related experience in this.

Good luck Steve.

 I do not have direct experience doing this, but I agree with John a '56 trans with torque convertor might be worth the trouble if there's no major mods needed. But without the '56 convertor it likely won't be much different in performance.

Keith

[195354]

John this transmission was in my 53 convertible. It was a non running car but it was complete from torque converter to the torque tube. I am thinking someone installed this years ago. It did move the rear axle back, you could see the marks on the differential where the pan-yard bar would rub on the differential.
Cleaned up the lifters after soaking them in ATF the plungers were stuck in over half of the lifters. It was surprising how much sludge was inside the lifters. The machine shop that grinds camshafts and lifters will take about 5 weeks to get parts back to me. A few of the lifters have issues on the bottom but they had pictures and are not concerned. Here are pictures for anyone that might try this. The real test will be after l have this up and running.

Steve

 

 

 

 

[JohnD1956]

@195354 which rear axle was in the convertible? There could be two. The 56 has no rear cover on it. It is a one piece unit with no drain plug. That is a one year only rear axle. The 53 will have a rear cover bolted on. This was a multi year application ending in 55.

 

The reason I ask is just to determine which output shaft the trans has and there for where to cut the torque tube and drive shaft. 

 

The 56 drive shaft to 56 axle end would be fine splined and is not pinned.  The earlier version is coarse splined and does have a pin. 

 

In your mix obviously your car had some combination or just a complete change out. 

[old-tank]

Sorry Steve, I know you spent time on those lifters but I would not use them.  The one time I did that the engine was quiet but it took 5 minutes before the clattering stopped.  The Sealed Power HT-896 Valve Lifters that I use are made in USA and always quiet.

Regrinding the cam is OK, but if a new cam is wanted, buy a 401 cam and have the journals turned to match the 56 cam.

[avgwarhawk]

I concur with Willie.  Also, the lifter in picture 4 appears to have a lot of wear from the cam and is not spinning in the bore.

[EmTee]

I had never heard of anyone regrinding lifters before; but that could just be me...  Given Willie's recommendation, however, i would probably go that way if the new USA lifters are still available.  That said, you could have your original cam reground, but a new cam and lifters does sound attractive given that you're replacing all of the other wear parts.

[KAD36]

+1 on lifters.  Either clean up the 56 cam or consider the 401 profile with turned down bearings.  Measure/dial in the 56 cam and see how it looks.  In the Engine Rebuild 2 link from the forum in your PMs there is a picture of the 56/cam card for the specs.  I can find and repost if needed.

 

Having had a widely available aftermarket “Frankencam” with no data available for its specs in my first rebuild and fighting resulting spring bind issues, it did run ok and idled nice but the 56 cam is more fun - having driven 2 rebuilt engines back to back.  My backup plan was a brand new cam cut for a 401, which folks over on the HAMB have tried and liked the results.

 

Update: found 56 cam specs courtesy of @Beemon

Edited September 26 by KAD36 (see edit history)

[195354]

Thanks everyone, Not much hands on with the lifter regrind but  two shops in the NW do this service all the time, so they say.  I am concerned with the possible function bleed down and such with the ones I have.  The lifters showing wear I am told no big deal they will clean up. What year of engine has the different lifter and push rod length, thinking this is a 56? 

I have not sent Cam or lifters out yet,  New quality parts like lifters is always the best option. I am just a bit gun shy the quality on some engine parts is concerning. I will use new lifters if they fit my application and the 56 grind. 

 

 

Steve 

[EmTee]

I'd trust Willie or Ken to have insight in this case.  I think Ken has the latest first-hand experience with the aftermarket vendors.  @KAD36, where did you get the lifters for your '55?  You're running a '56 cam & lifters, correct?

[Edwin The Kid]

There is a somewhat local cam and lifter grinding company near me that the school has had good success with. Very useful for rare stuff where new lifters are not available. 

 

I'm sure whether you regrind or get new lifters some time and thought will need to be put into making sure the valve train geometry is as it should be

[avgwarhawk]

If I remember correctly 54-55 had deeper pocket lifters and longer push rods.  56 started shallow pocket lifters and shorter rods.   My 54 264 is running a 56 cam/rods/lifters.  The geometry works with correct rods and lifters according to year. Mix and match will not work.  

[KAD36]

12 hours ago, EmTee said:

I'd trust Willie or Ken to have insight in this case.  I think Ken has the latest first-hand experience with the aftermarket vendors.  @KAD36, where did you get the lifters for your '55?  You're running a '56 cam & lifters, correct?

Both 56 pushrods and lifters were put in both the 55 and 56 engines after going the route of trying to clean the OEM 55 lifters.  The car had sat in my grandparents shed for probably 10-15 years with only occasional starts.  After trying to clean 5 of them, called it quits, getting mixed results.  I used Clevites and had stocked up in the late 90s on a couple sets.  
 

I put a new set of lifters on the old cam on the first 55 engine cleanup - guess that’s a no no but got about 60K miles out of it no issues.  Then rebuilt the 55 with new lifters new cam, then rebuilt the 56 and put new lifters on the original 56 cam after checking the cam against specs.
 

The cams were not ground nor cleaned up before putting the lifters on.  My shade tree assumption was the 322 valve spring pressure was relatively low it wasn’t going to be a high revving engine and if I put an average of 3-3500 miles on it a year I’d be statistically dead just before it hit 100K and figured it should last that long.  A purist with proper  shop skills shouldn’t mix new and used parts, but given my “use case” I ran with it.  Maybe I just got lucky.

 

Rockauto has Melling and Sealed Power lifters listed for 56.  They fit a wide variety of cars.   Rotella or other diesel oil was mostly used when the 56 lifters-pushrods were put on the 55 cam.  On both the rebuilds Castrol or Quaker State Dino oil and a few ounces of ZDDP are used. 
 

Edited September 28 by KAD36 (see edit history)