Introduction of 4 wheel brakes (What was the first production car to have 4 wheel brakes? )

[Leif in Calif]

There's a 1922 Hispano Suiza on BaT that has 4 wheel brakes. That's pretty early for that feature, although I have read about Rickenbacker.

What was the first production car to have 4 wheel brakes? 

[jdome]

Cadillac had 4 wheel mechanical in 1924 but I don't think they were first. 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Leif I am not sure but I know it has been covered here before - try a search.  I always chuckle at some of the early ads from car makers staying with 2 wheel brakes  warning against those  "untried and dangerous 4 wheel braking systems" 😁

[hook]

Louis Renault came up with 4 wheel brakes in 1902

[Axial_Flow]

Certainly not the first, but Oakland also had 4 wheel mechanical brakes as well.

[West Peterson]

Duesenberg had 4-wheel hydraulic brakes in 1922, and as early as 1914 on their race cars. Chrysler had 4-wheel hydraulic brakes in 1924.

[old car fan]

Templer

[Lee H]

1903 Spyker (Dutch)

[zepher]

Yes, Rickenbacker had 4 wheel brakes standard on all 1922 car models and continued that way until end of production in 1927.

From what I understand, all 1922 Rickenbacker cars had the front brake drums painted red to showcase the front wheel brakes.

[Robert G. Smits]

Correction jdome. Cadillac switched to 4 wheel brakes mid year in 1923 when they introduced the V63. 

[Mark Gregush]

1 hour ago, Lee H said:

1903 Spyker (Dutch)

Unless there are hidden brakes, it looks to be 4 wheel drive with brakes at the rear. "Driven on four wheels"

[wayne sheldon]

Mark G, I was wondering if it might have had a driveline brake? That would put braking onto all four wheels if it was set up properly to do so.

Early Fords through the model T were not the only cars to use the service brake on their driveline. Franklin did so for many years. Every then and again I have read articles mentioning other cars, including a few European cars, that had the service brake on the driveline. The first thousand or so Curved Dash Oldsmobiles had the only brake in the transmission (a part of the driveline), which didn't work very well when the drive-chain broke. Hence why the thousands more built in the following years had the service brake on the rear wheels.

[kbeach]

Chalmers developed 4 wheel brakes before Chrysler took them over.

[Lee H]

11 hours ago, Mark Gregush said:

Unless there are hidden brakes, it looks to be 4 wheel drive with brakes at the rear. "Driven on four wheels"

I agree, but the Louwman Museum says it was the first to have 4 wheel brakes as well, and I’m sticking to it! (There could be some national pride involved in this boast)

There must be a brake on the driveshaft to the front wheels. Probably not even controlled from the same handle or pedal. But technically….

Edited March 20 by Lee H (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Since the OP asked for first "production car" with 4-wheel brakes, I have to raise a red flag regarding the Spyker.

So far, it looks like 1922 Duesenberg and Rickenbacker were the earliest on production cars.

[charlespetty]

The original poster asked about four wheel brakes on a 1922 Hispano-Suiza.  The 1919 Hispano-Suiza HB6 came out with four wheel brakes and with a mechanical servo assist no less!  

[Grimy]

56 minutes ago, charlespetty said:

The original poster asked about four wheel brakes on a 1922 Hispano-Suiza.  The 1919 Hispano-Suiza HB6 came out with four wheel brakes and with a mechanical servo assist no less!  

And Pierce-Arrow licensed the Hispano 4-wheel brake technology for its cars, beginning with 1924 models.

 

The problem with front wheel *mechanical* brakes was that of finding the means to allow equalized braking on both inside and outside front wheels during turns, as the outside wheel covered much more ground.

[Leif in Calif]

16 hours ago, wayne sheldon said:

Mark G, I was wondering if it might have had a driveline brake? That would put braking onto all four wheels if it was set up properly to do so.

Early Fords through the model T were not the only cars to use the service brake on their driveline. Franklin did so for many years. Every then and again I have read articles mentioning other cars, including a few European cars, that had the service brake on the driveline. The first thousand or so Curved Dash Oldsmobiles had the only brake in the transmission (a part of the driveline), which didn't work very well when the drive-chain broke. Hence why the thousands more built in the following years had the service brake on the rear wheels.

To my mind, the drive line brake doesn't count if both differentials are "open" (non locking). I remember a story by racing driver Phil Hill that talked about his first car ( a T) and how he crashed it when one rear wheel was in a rather slimy gutter and so that wheel locked, allowing the other wheel to rotate freely, with no braking action. 

Seems like the "Hisso" might be the winner in adoption by a production car, albeit limited production.  

[JACK M]

Couldn't comment on 4 wheel brakes, But I learned that Pierce Arrow never built a car with hydraulic brakes.

[wayne sheldon]

4 hours ago, Leif in Calif said:

To my mind, the drive line brake doesn't count if both differentials are "open" (non locking). I remember a story by racing driver Phil Hill that talked about his first car ( a T) and how he crashed it when one rear wheel was in a rather slimy gutter and so that wheel locked, allowing the other wheel to rotate freely, with no braking action. 

Seems like the "Hisso" might be the winner in adoption by a production car, albeit limited production.  

 

I remember reading that story by Phil Hill a long time ago. It is a rare circumstance where one rear wheel can slip enough for the brake to not work on either rear wheel. But it can happen. I have driven model Ts many thousands of miles total, and other than heavy rain where neither tire has a decent grip on the asphalt, never had a bad enough slip to have a serious affect on the braking (although it is bad enough at its best?). 

I also often tell people that it is very important to have a good working properly adjusted emergency brake, and that they should practice using it enough to know what it can do and to be able to grab it quickly without hesitation. Careful use of the hand brake can balance the braking somewhat in slippery conditions.

[Grimy]

5 hours ago, JACK M said:

Couldn't comment on 4 wheel brakes, But I learned that Pierce Arrow never built a car with hydraulic brakes.

True.  But from 1932 forward, they had 342 sq in of swept area, substantially more than a Cad V-16.  1933-35 have the S-W inertial power brakes driven off the rear of the transmission meaning the faster you go, the more assist you have--but backing downhill into a parallel parking slot is terrifying at first.  I speculate that the reason the S-W system (supplemental on R-R until the early 1950s) was abandoned is that the pedal did not drop as the linings wore, which can result in an unpleasant surprise; I adjust my 1934's wheel brakes every 3,000 miles.  1936-38 Pierces had vacuum power assist.

Edited March 21 by Grimy
added two words for clarity (see edit history)

[Lee H]

On 3/20/2024 at 1:05 PM, Leif in Calif said:

To my mind, the drive line brake doesn't count if both differentials are "open" (non locking). I remember a story by racing driver Phil Hill that talked about his first car ( a T) and how he crashed it when one rear wheel was in a rather slimy gutter and so that wheel locked, allowing the other wheel to rotate freely, with no braking action. 

Seems like the "Hisso" might be the winner in adoption by a production car, albeit limited production.  

You know, I had to think about this…but I’ll call out the great Phil Hill on that one. Think about it for a minute. In his example, the driveshaft is locked by the brake, and one wheel is locked by sliding in the gutter. How does the other wheel rotate freely? On an open differential, one of the 3 elements can be locked, and the other two can rotate. But if two elements are locked, the third cannot rotate. You can prove this yourself by jacking up just one rear tire, and leaving the car in park. You will not be able to rotate the wheel that is off the ground. (But you can if you take the car out of park, or lift the other wheel.)

 

To give Phil some credit, the tire in the gutter COULD have started rotating backwards at the same speed the other tire was moving forward, but not locked.

[wayne sheldon]

9 hours ago, Lee H said:

To give Phil some credit, the tire in the gutter COULD have started rotating backwards at the same speed the other tire was moving forward, but not locked.

 

I actually saw this happen once, on a model T club tour. Cars were struggling up and down some short steep drives. A few of us that had arrived early (my speedster) were standing around watching latecomers on the dirt hill road. A touring car loaded with passengers was easing down a short stretch where water had run down the hillside along one edge of the road. It was short, no serious dangers, but a scary moment for the driver when he pressed the brake pedal and the car didn't slow down! The tire on the dry hard dirt held to the road and turned with the forward motion of the car. Meanwhile the other wheel in the wet muddy flow on hard dirt spun in the opposite direction!

A few of us that had arrived early and watched that later talked with the driver in the parking area he said "I about (blanked) my pants when I pushed the brake pedal as hard as I could and didn't even slow down!"

 

I have never forgotten that. Every time I drive a T under less than ideal conditions I can see that image of the opposite wheel spinning backwards! It helps keep me grounded and being careful of potentially dangerous situations.

 

As I said earlier, be prepared to use the hand brake if necessary! A little braking pressure will stop the spin-back and transfer the pedal braking back to the dry wheel.

[jhh2206]

Friends

 

My young mind was flypaper for catching stuff like this. I  just looked it up again. Somewhere around here I have the Anselmi book about Isotta and it may have more information. The Isotta Fraschini type KM ( 1910-1914) had four wheel brakes designed by Cesare Isotta. These cars have a 10 liter engine so may maybe prudence caught up with some of the enthusiasm in Milano.

 

 

 

 

John Harley

[Leif in Calif]

On 3/23/2024 at 7:32 AM, Lee H said:

You know, I had to think about this…but I’ll call out the great Phil Hill on that one. Think about it for a minute. In his example, the driveshaft is locked by the brake, and one wheel is locked by sliding in the gutter. How does the other wheel rotate freely? On an open differential, one of the 3 elements can be locked, and the other two can rotate. But if two elements are locked, the third cannot rotate. You can prove this yourself by jacking up just one rear tire, and leaving the car in park. You will not be able to rotate the wheel that is off the ground. (But you can if you take the car out of park, or lift the other wheel.)

 

To give Phil some credit, the tire in the gutter COULD have started rotating backwards at the same speed the other tire was moving forward, but not locked.

I thought about this after you wrote it and it seemed correct...yesterday I had an opportunity to test it in the garage and yes, I think that's what happened. It's been about 6 decades since I studied this stuff so I had to look up friction verses velocity and the book says friction is not dependent on velocity, so a wheel spinning backwards would theoretically provide no more drag than one that was locked and sliding. I think I read somewhere that steam locomotives would go to reverse in an emergency stop to avoid wearing a flat spot on the driving wheels. I didn't make them stop faster.    

[arcticbuicks]

i like the 1928 chevrolet cast emblems that were on the left rear fender,warning approaching drivers from the rear that the chevrolet with the emblem has better stopping capability with four wheel brakes......the red triangle emblem says 'four wheel brakes'