Vehicle requirements (I don't want to look like a jirk. Everyone has their own taste and opinions.)

[31A]

I don't want to look like a jirk.  Everyone has their own taste and opinions.  I like pure stock. (Sorry). I don't consider vehicles with built frames, fuel injectors, solid state ignition and so on as ANTIQUE.  The fully modified cars with the latest in technology are impressive but do not belong in a Antique club.  Please correct my thinking.

[keiser31]

I see nothing wrong with your thinking.

[Bruce W]

I am in agreement with your thinking. That's why I am here.

[M1842]

There are other places for the modified/hot rod/restored crowd.  I would say you are in the right place!

[R Walling]

 When I drive some of my cars on the road, people smile while I go by. They seem to appreciate seeing an old car and do not think of it as a hot rod, but as a memory of times past.

 

 If it brings enjoyment to some, is it really such a bad thing?

 

  Remember, hotrodders usually do not deprive purists of a fine antique, they mostly buy derelicts that purists didn't want bother to invest money or time in.

 

 Case in point, the below car was missing the entire lower 6"of the car and had to be replaced due to rot and frozen drive train.

[arcticbuicks]

i equally love both.....and it is the hobby of working on old cars.....whatever the end result....as long as it suits the persons taste.....and i enjoy car shows with a mix of both ....or car shows that have one or the other.

[arcticbuicks]

A car like this 1931 Mc Glaughlin 90.....will not likely ever be restored because of many important reasons.....but will make a nice street rod.......and its organs sold off to keep other originals going.....in my view ,which ever way it goes....is better than how its going now.....and i am fine with that

Edited February 17 by arcticbuicks (see edit history)

[Pfeil]

2 hours ago, 31A said:

I don't want to look like a jirk.  Everyone has their own taste and opinions.  I like pure stock. (Sorry). I don't consider vehicles with built frames, fuel injectors, solid state ignition and so on as ANTIQUE.  The fully modified cars with the latest in technology are impressive but do not belong in a Antique club.  Please correct my thinking.

Well, perhaps you wouldn't like this Factory stock contraption on a 1958 Chrysler. It's electronic fuel injection!

     or how about a 68 fuelie VW  

 

Perhaps electronic ignition would be out of bounds on the Factory stock electronic ignition that was an option on 1963-4 Pontiac V-8? See below.

Edited February 17 by Pfeil (see edit history)

[arcticbuicks]

[Rusty_OToole]

Fuel injection 1957 Corvette. Solid state ignition 1962 Studebaker Avanti. Build frame, who knows what that means, but on the whole I agree with the OP. Even though there are exceptions.

One objection to modifying an old car is it gets obsolete a lot faster. Example a teal Model A roadster with a pink smear down the side, crate 350 Chev V8 and Turbo 350 automatic, billet wheels and accessories  and gray tweed interior was quite in fashion in the early 80s. No doubt the guy who built it thought he was quite the trend setter compared to the square who restored his Model A exactly to stock specs. Which is more desirable and valuable now? Which is laughably obsolete? You will be able to say the same thing about every LS swap and electric conversion in a few years.

Edited February 17 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Jack Bennett]

There are days I simply don’t feel like messing with my old Dodge (1923), Willys (1927), Fargo (1929), Plymouth (1951), Ford pickup (1995), or KIA (2016).

So, being retired, and obligated to nobody to do any certain thing, I can stay in bed, sit on my couch and lament my old age and bunions, go to the bar, get soused and fall down, or work on my Ford 8N tractor (1947) or my Cushman M53 civilian Airborne motor scooter (also 1947).

Regardless of what I choose to do with my time, or with what machine I choose to do it with, I seriously don’t expect a well meaning busy body to even hand me a rag to wipe the grease from my hands.

Accordingly, I expect that same busy body to scroll right past my garage if my choice of hobby’s offends their sensitive ego.

However, when I do finish whatever it is that I choose to do, and having done it to the transmission of a old tractor, rather than the fan belt of a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, I believe having done it to a mechanical device, and as such, have earned the right to talk about it on the forum without apologizing because it is not on a vehicle suiting your definition of a “antique” or collectible car.

Jack

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

16 minutes ago, Jack Bennett said:

There are days I simply don’t feel like messing with my old Dodge (1923), Willys (1927), Fargo (1929), Plymouth (1951), Ford pickup (1995), or KIA (2016).

So, being retired, and obligated to nobody to do any certain thing, I can stay in bed, sit on my couch and lament my old age and bunions, go to the bar, get soused and fall down, or work on my Ford 8N tractor (1947) or my Cushman M53 civilian Airborne motor scooter (also 1947).

Regardless of what I choose to do with my time, or with what machine I choose to do it with, I seriously don’t expect a well meaning busy body to even hand me a rag to wipe the grease from my hands.

Accordingly, I expect that same busy body to scroll right past my garage if my choice of hobby’s offends their sensitive ego.

However, when I do finish whatever it is that I choose to do, and having done it to the transmission of a old tractor, rather than the fan belt of a Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, I believe having done it to a mechanical device, and as such, have earned the right to talk about it on the forum without apologizing because it is not on a vehicle suiting your definition of a “antique” or collectible car.

Jack

 

  BRAVO,  Jack.  BRAVO!

 

  Ben

[Jack Bennett]

8 hours ago, 31A said:

I don't want to look like a jirk.  Everyone has their own taste and opinions.  I like pure stock. (Sorry). I don't consider vehicles with built frames, fuel injectors, solid state ignition and so on as ANTIQUE.  The fully modified cars with the latest in technology are impressive but do not belong in a Antique club.  Please correct my thinking.

Nor do I want to look like a jerk, and I certainly apologize for appearing to be nosey for checking your profile to see how really very familiar with a “club” you are.

I find that you have not posted your birthdate, address, or even general location, and your membership date is not shown.

What is remarkable though is that you have made a single post, in the time of forever, and it is advising others what you want to see on this forum.

When I open a forum, may it be the Dodge Brothers, WOKR, Cushman, Classic tractor or AACA forum I do so with prior knowledge that there are no garages, junk yards, garage sales or even a barn cluttered with “finds”.

Rather I find people whose ages,  occupation, location of residence (even in prison), ethnicity or race and certainly gender don’t count toward their value as contributors to the comraderie and fellowship I do expect to find there.

Is your 1967 Camero, or your 1965 Mustang important to you? If it is, tell me about it and I’ll listen.

When it comes your turn to listen to me tell about the Detroit Lubricator carburetor, or the shaft drive water pump found on my 1923 Dodge Roadster……….well, shall we call that communication of the highest human form imaginable.

Jack

 

[nat]

9 hours ago, 31A said:

I don't want to look like a jirk.  Everyone has their own taste and opinions.  I like pure stock.

     I'm on the same page except for one vowel.

     I think it's a shame to butcher something that's still in reasonable original condition but the owner should do whatever he, she, it or other, (please specify), wants. 

     U.S. made cars made after 1957 probably should be crushed. 

     No matter how "original" or not, a car resurrected from the dead is better than melting it down into something that will be scrap next year.

    

[61polara]

51 minutes ago, nat said:

 U.S. made cars made after 1957 probably should be crushed. 

That's not in the spirit of the AACA mission.  Everything 25 years and older is accepted through 1999 as of this year.

[Terry Bond]

Wont it be nice when winter is over and everyone can go outside and play again?

[dodge28]

I might be considered a jerk. My cutoff date of antique is 1964, The car up to then has some character

[demco32]

16 hours ago, 31A said:

I don't want to look like a jirk.  Everyone has their own taste and opinions.  I like pure stock. (Sorry). I don't consider vehicles with built frames, fuel injectors, solid state ignition and so on as ANTIQUE.  The fully modified cars with the latest in technology are impressive but do not belong in a Antique club.  Please correct my thinking.

Adjustments may sometimes be required by law for safety, such as direction indicators

I made it so that you can't see  and the the appearance of the car is as original.

 

[demco32]

15 hours ago, R Walling said:

 When I drive some of my cars on the road, people smile while I go by. They seem to appreciate seeing an old car and do not think of it as a hot rod, but as a memory of times past.

 

 If it brings enjoyment to some, is it really such a bad thing?

 

  Remember, hotrodders usually do not deprive purists of a fine antique, they mostly buy derelicts that purists didn't want bother to invest money or time in.

 

 Case in point, the below car was missing the entire lower 6"of the car and had to be replaced due to rot and frozen drive train.

You would have to completely restore this car to its original condition if you want to take it on the road in Belgium, France and almost the whole of west Europe.

If the frame of the car is rotten or rusted, you should not change or repair it, the car is lost.

Welding or cut out parts on a frame is forbidden.

A different chassis can only be done with the vehicle documents of that chassis and you then legally have a different car because the vin number is also different.

you will then need a new registration because you have actually bought a different car.

Otherwise you will never be able to get a registration , insurance and  technical inspection as required by law.

many don't realize how lucky they are to live in the USA where the possibilities are endless and not everything is limited or prohibited by law.

 

[hook]

5 hours ago, dodge28 said:

I might be considered a jerk. My cutoff date of antique is 1964, The car up to then has some character

Everyone has their own cutoff date. At one time even Duesenberg's were beyond someone's cutoff date. Just enjoy your own desires, be kind and listen to others. I saw a sign once that pretty well sums it all up. "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts".

[Jack Bennett]

8 hours ago, demco32 said:

Adjustments may sometimes be required by law for safety, such as direction indicators

I made it so that you can't see  and the the appearance of the car is as original.

 

At 40 mph, my 1923 dodge roadster is plain scary. And, I’m not even sure,  what with the rear wheel only brakes, and wood spokes, I would even want to go faster than 40 miles per hour. But I still have safety requirements that I must observe to use the car on the same street a person does with their Lexus or Mercedes. So my cars, regardless of the age, is updated so far as brake lights, turn signals, safety equipment, such as fluorescent triangles, and I carry a good tool kit and spare , every time they leave the house. But it’s still a 1923 model car with a tiny, four-cylinder engine, and brakes that answer better to a prayer then they do the pressure. 
Jack

[Packard enthus.]

11 hours ago, dodge28 said:

I might be considered a jerk. My cutoff date of antique is 1964, The car up to then has some character

I respectfully suggest you are WAY "behind-the-times".    Subscribe to the magazine "ANTIQUE AUTOMOBILE" put out by the ANTIQUE AUTO CLUB OF AMERICA.    Great info. in the articles as to where the used car hobby is going. (at least that is where many folks WANT it to go......)

 

For example, go to the MAY JUNE 2023 issue (Volume 87 Number 3).   See the article entitled EMERGING ANTIQUES that begins on Pp. 76,   There you will find the author stating "antiques from this modern era" are where we should give more consideration  (pick up trucks, Ford Granada...things like that.  

 

Just think, in another year my 2000 Toyota RAV 4 will be considered an "antique" by some folks.  They would be VERY unhappy with me if I dared violate what these folks want to hear, should I call it "a used car"

 

 

[dodge28]

Pease cooking in the pot 9 days old, some like it hot ,some like it cold. Each to his own. We all are entitled to that.

[1912Staver]

10 hours ago, demco32 said:

You would have to completely restore this car to its original condition if you want to take it on the road in Belgium, France and almost the whole of west Europe.

If the frame of the car is rotten or rusted, you should not change or repair it, the car is lost.

Welding or cut out parts on a frame is forbidden.

A different chassis can only be done with the vehicle documents of that chassis and you then legally have a different car because the vin number is also different.

you will then need a new registration because you have actually bought a different car.

Otherwise you will never be able to get a registration , insurance and  technical inspection as required by law.

many don't realize how lucky they are to live in the USA where the possibilities are endless and not everything is limited or prohibited by law.

 

Lots of older British sports have had a new frame over the years. Lotus for one stocks them as a spare part.  TVR's often need new frames, several companies make them depending on the year. Some are made in England, some in North America and I believe some in New Zealand. Triumph TR 6 frames are available new here in North America. Never heard of the vin problem. You are only fitting a new frame. Strictly a replacement part on these cars. Vehicle I.D. remains unchanged. 

Edited February 18 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

On 2/17/2024 at 9:02 AM, R Walling said:

  Remember, hotrodders usually do not deprive purists of a fine antique, they mostly buy derelicts that purists didn't want bother to invest money or time in.

Wouldn't it be a wonderful if this were really true! The fact is that during the the glory days of the 90's and 2000's good original and restored cars were being scooped up by street rodders and customizers in large numbers. They were solid and required less work.

 

With the high cost of restoration and related services today few cars are being restored. That hasn't slowed down the guys who have big egos and little or no concern for the history that a survivor represents. 

 

I'm old, tend to be a purist, but I also consider myself a realist. Regardless of my own inclinations, I have to ask myself if any of our goals are really so out of step with the customizers and newer car fans. Survival of the hobby may depend on how we learn to coexist with those that we may not agree with. It seems to me that inclusiveness of all things car related has to become part of hobby.

 

I don't believe that this means changing the goals of the AACA or other purist groups. However, it does seem we need to work on a more tolerant attitude.  

[junkyardjeff]

With me being on the frugal side I tend to buy incomplete projects so I put them together with whatever parts I can get cheap and not willing to spend the money to get all the correct parts so I have very few cars that have 100 percent correct parts.  And I do not own a trailer so what ever I get has to be able to go down the highway without being a burden to everyone else so there are going to be some modifications to do that like gear ratios,overdrive trans and better brakes if needed.  Whatever I have looks like it's supposed to on the outside but the mechanicals not so much,when I bought my 65 Mercury I decided to leave it alone since it's from the era it can handle the highways.  I like them all.

[dodge28]

Wood spoke wheels are not allowed on 400 serries highways in Canada. 

[arcticbuicks]

@dodge28  i do not read the rules as simple as that 'not allowed'........could you post your source please

[demco32]

12 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

Lots of older British sports have had a new frame over the years. Lotus for one stocks them as a spare part.  TVR's often need new frames, several companies make them depending on the year. Some are made in England, some in North America and I believe some in New Zealand. Triumph TR 6 frames are available new here in North America. Never heard of the vin problem. You are only fitting a new frame. Strictly a replacement part on these cars. Vehicle I.D. remains unchanged. 

You can't in Belgium. 

Before you could have a new frame but Only the brand dealer could do this and with a certificate that the vin number has been re-stamped and approved by the manufacturer.

this was done after an accident because there was of course no rust or rot because the cars were not old enough.

it was only done on a young car because of its value but for a car that was, for example, 10 years old, this was too expensive.

The cost and value of a car are also now taken into account to decide whether to repair it or not and that was also the case in the past.

because there are no longer any brand dealers for most antique cars, they can't issue a certificate because these manufacturers no longer exist.

all chassis that are now made are copied like the original, but legally they are counterfeit.

everything has to do with safety and preventing theft. 

also the laws have changed a lot from before and the chassis are no longer for sale from the original manufacturer.

I know that some people renew a frame and put the number in it themselves, but it is not legally allowed.

of course we can restore a frame, that's not the problem, as a garage owner and bodywork repairer, that is no problem.

but if during the technical inspection there is even the slightest suspicion that a repair has been made, the car will be rejected and the VIN number is entered in a database as prohibited from traffic.

 

[54Coupe]

On 2/17/2024 at 6:41 PM, Terry Bond said:

Wont it be nice when winter is over and everyone can go outside and play again?

This made me laugh.

[dodge28]

articbuick  check with the MTO of Ontario. Driving cars must be taken in context. A 19 45 Chev was good to drive on a 2 lane highway then. Drive one now on the 401 freeway and these little Honda Civic would make circles around you. Not a safe place to be.

[1912Staver]

8 hours ago, demco32 said:

You can't in Belgium. 

Before you could have a new frame but Only the brand dealer could do this and with a certificate that the vin number has been re-stamped and approved by the manufacturer.

this was done after an accident because there was of course no rust or rot because the cars were not old enough.

it was only done on a young car because of its value but for a car that was, for example, 10 years old, this was too expensive.

The cost and value of a car are also now taken into account to decide whether to repair it or not and that was also the case in the past.

because there are no longer any brand dealers for most antique cars, they can't issue a certificate because these manufacturers no longer exist.

all chassis that are now made are copied like the original, but legally they are counterfeit.

everything has to do with safety and preventing theft. 

also the laws have changed a lot from before and the chassis are no longer for sale from the original manufacturer.

I know that some people renew a frame and put the number in it themselves, but it is not legally allowed.

of course we can restore a frame, that's not the problem, as a garage owner and bodywork repairer, that is no problem.

but if during the technical inspection there is even the slightest suspicion that a repair has been made, the car will be rejected and the VIN number is entered in a database as prohibited from traffic.

 

I guess the moral of the story is don't buy a Morgan in Belgium.  Many, many have had a new frame fitted. There is a fellow here in North America who is considered  the " best " maker of Morgan frames in the world. Over 350 new frames have been built in his shop.

Lots of older British cars don't even have a frame number. 99% of the pre 1972 TVR's { I know some of these live in Belgium } don't have any sort of frame number. The only ones stamped as far as I know were the ones intended for international racing events in order to pass pre race scrutineering. On all the regular production road cars there is no frame number. In 1972 , with the introduction of the improved frame design there started to be a small tab with a frame number stamped on. Almost all pre 1966 TVR's { including Griffith's } have had a new frame fitted. They are attached to the body with fiberglass wraps which traps moisture and corrodes the frame tubes to nothing. Most replacement frames are made in the later style where the body is bolted to the frame. Standard stuff in the vintage TVR world. TVR is no longer in business, But new frames are available from multiple makers.

Similar with all the tube frame Lotus cars. They have a number on the frame , but it has nothing to do with the Lotus number. It is just a production control number from the frame sub- contractor. Once again many  many replacement frames have been made and fitted. And many others repaired. How would a shop even know on a tubular frame ? The people doing these repairs are not amateurs .

Edited February 19 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Terry Bond]

13 hours ago, arcticbuicks said:

@dodge28  i do not read the rules as simple as that 'not allowed'........could you post your source please

I would also love to see the documentation for this.  It seems odd that an inspector for the DMV (or whatever it's called) would be expected to have the knowledge  and expertise to detect a replacement or even carefully restored frame. 

[1912Staver]

Exactly Terry. Several British sports cars have frames that are prone to needing replacement or repairs. Really just par for the course on these cars. In the real world { outside Belgium I guess } you don't just scrap a otherwise good vintage car because the frame is past its best before date. 

 Here is Moss Motors TR6 rear diff mount beef up kit. It requires welding to the frame. All TR6's need this modification because it is a mater of when, not if the diff mounting studs break away from the frame. I have repaired TR 6's in this way with as little as 50,000 K's on the clock. I bet Moss have sold thousands of these kits.A Weak Differential Mount: Fixing a Common TR6 Problem – Moss Motoring

 

 

[1912Staver]

Here is what one vender uses to build new TVR frames. Better than how TVR made them in the first place.

 

 

[1912Staver]

Finished product, brand new. Like the factory item these frames have no frame number. Just a replacement part for your vintage TVR. Typical of about 1963 - 1966 Grantura's and all the Griffith's.

 

 

 

[demco32]

2 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I guess the moral of the story is don't buy a Morgan in Belgium.  Many, many have had a new frame fitted. There is a fellow here in North America who is considered  the " best " maker of Morgan frames in the world. Over 350 new frames have been built in his shop.

Lots of older British cars don't even have a frame number. 99% of the pre 1972 TVR's { I know some of these live in Belgium } don't have any sort of frame number. The only ones stamped as far as I know were the ones intended for international racing events in order to pass pre race scrutineering. On all the regular production road cars there is no frame number. In 1972 , with the introduction of the improved frame design there started to be a small tab with a frame number stamped on. Almost all pre 1966 TVR's { including Griffith's } have had a new frame fitted. They are attached to the body with fiberglass wraps which traps moisture and corrodes the frame tubes to nothing. Most replacement frames are made in the later style where the body is bolted to the frame. Standard stuff in the vintage TVR world. TVR is no longer in business, But new frames are available from multiple makers.

Similar with all the tube frame Lotus cars. They have a number on the frame , but it has nothing to do with the Lotus number. It is just a production control number from the frame sub- contractor. Once again many  many replacement frames have been made and fitted. And many others repaired. How would a shop even know on a tubular frame ? The people doing these repairs are not amateurs .

We have Morgan's in Belgium and also an Import company ( http://morgan-belgium.com/nl/ ) I've been in the factory in the UK.

So if we need a new frame It's no problem.

Order it from the factory and import your self, take you Belgium registration, photo's from the car, bill of sale with you as you get it and they stamp the vin number in the UK in the new frame. ( It's not that far to go, 1 day trip)

There is a solution for an import car from the USA (I purchase a lot of cars in the south of the USA).

Let the shipment go to the Netherlands or Germany these country's have  a service that puts the vin number of the tittle in the chassis with a certificate.

But only for an import car with tittle and bill of sale.

Should the car have a bad frame then you have a problem.

 

About Lotus, the same as with Morgan's.

The factory is in the UK.

Don't forget that vin numbers  are different  in Europe. ( the vin code )

Any number on a car's frame is the registration number for the car , nothing else.

All cars build after 1969 need to have certificate of conformity also with the vin number on it. ( if you don't have it and there is no longer a manufacturer you have a problem)

 

I don't say that a company that build new frames  in the USA are no good frames or company's , I just say that you can't take that frame and build your car on it.

( you can stamp the number   if you have the correct type letter stamp's but it's not legal)

 

For example.

When I was in Oklahoma I purchase this 1989 Jaguar XJS- V12.

Jaguar's have a vin number in the body of the car ( on the edge near the wipers ) and also a number visible on the windscreen.

Only the number on the windscreen is on the tittle and that is a different number then on the frame or body.

After import with documents from  customs, tittle from the car I need to show and let an official Jaguar shop inspect the car.

They will check if the numbers on the car are correct and deliver an attest that these 2 different number are correct for the car.

Jaguar factory have a production database .

Only the number on the body will be on the new Belgian registration.

I cost $900

 

About the export from the USA.

Customs check all car before loading in the shipping container.

No vin number is no export.

There must be a number on the car that matches the tittle.

A car without a good tittle and only a bill of sale is a parts car and can't get registration.

 

https://www.autoblog.nl/nieuws/tvr-griffith-met-v8-komt-toch-samen-met-nieuw-modellengamma-3375567

About TVR.

Same as with Lotus or Morgan. 

 

By law, frame repairs are not Allowed for cars.

Big truck's like the 18 wheelers is possible.

In the shop we can do it, so make repairs or  a new frame for a car is no problem we have the tools  but for a car it's not legal to build one in Belgium.

 

We as shop know that British cars in the USA have no vin number but all cars sold in the EU have one.

25years ago it was no problem, you stamp the number in the frame and go the technical control, it was allowed.

But now it is not possible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[1912Staver]

Yes , much different laws for different countries. Here in North America the shipping on a new British frame gets very expensive. So sooner or later someone starts to build the commonly needed ones over here. Morgan , TVR, Lotus etc. Glad I don't live in the EU. It's hard enough to afford old sports cars as it is without dealing with a massive tangle of bureaucracy.

99% of what I am involved with is 1972 or older. Things were so much simpler in those days.

Edited February 19 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[demco32]

15 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Finished product, brand new. Like the factory item these frames have no frame number. Just a replacement part for your vintage TVR. Typical of about 1963 - 1966 Grantura's and all the Griffith's.

 

 

 

You never get this car on the road in Belgium.

If the inspector has doubt about the originality of the frame he will not issue a good report and pink paper for car registration.

For example.

I had a 1978 Pontiac with only 12000 miles from AR and the inspector told me there is a weld on the frond frame that is not original from factory. (crossmember under the engine )

It give me a lot of problems to get the car pass control.

 I took pictures of the exact same cars where the weld was clearly visible.

Went to Headquarters of the technical inspection company and after explanation they accepted that is was original from factory.

Took me 6 month.

 

 

[1912Staver]

How would anyone know ? What's wrong with better than what the factory turned out in 1964 ? Remember these have { and never had } a frame number. Are they going to EDS test the steel to see if it matches 1964  chemistry ?

Edited February 19 by 1912Staver (see edit history)