Cornpanzers Riv Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 I have a 63 with a 425 and turbo 400 out of a 64 Riviera. I have chronic fuel starvation issues. If I try to accelerate quickly, it starts to surge. Get into the secondaries and forget about it. Seems like the problem is worse climbing a hill. I assume that’s due to the load and not the inclination. I have replaced the sending unit, filter on the unit, fuel pump, fuel filter and rebuilt the carburetor. It was originally an AC car, so it has the fuel return line. I have not replaced the lines. Any suggestions? I’m tempted to install an electric fuel pump, but that seems to be a Band-Aid not the actual fix. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 The 1st. thing that I would do is to check the fuel hose from the tank to the frame. It comes out of the tank & curves up to the line on the frame. It makes a bend to reach that line. The hose cracks at the top & then sucks air. Doesn't leak as it's above the fuel line sending unit coming out of the tank. Very easy to remove & check. Probably better off to just replace it now. You could also block the return hose IF the problem still persists. Just my thoughts. Tom T. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornpanzers Riv Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 Hmmm…good tip Tom. I will check that out next weekend David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 What carb do you have on the engine? Original Carter AFB? Aftermarket Edlebrock AFB lookalike? Something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lrlforfun Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 (edited) Odds are there's caca in the tank. I'd start with the tank as a starting point. First use an auxiliary fuel tank and that eliminates everything behind the fuel pump. Mitch Edited January 29 by lrlforfun (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 If any of the rubber fuel lines have been there a long time, time to replace them with new hose, tank to engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron65 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 I had what I thought was a fuel starvation problem on my '63, but I hooked up my fuel pressure gauge and it wasn't. It turned out that the new coil that I replaced my old bad coil with was also bad; I checked the resistance across the primary terminals and it was high. Another new coil solved the problem. It felt for all the world like it was starving for fuel - it cut out only under load. Not saying this is definitely your problem, but it's a quick check, especially if you have a spare coil lying around. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornpanzers Riv Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 9 hours ago, Jim Cannon said: What carb do you have on the engine? Original Carter AFB? Aftermarket Edlebrock AFB lookalike? Something else? It is the original Carter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornpanzers Riv Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 9 hours ago, lrlforfun said: Odds are there's caca in the tank. I'd start with the tank as a starting point. First use an auxiliary fuel tank and that eliminates everything behind the fuel pump. Mitch Good suggestion, but the tank has been drained. It’s clean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee H Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 8 hours ago, Aaron65 said: I had what I thought was a fuel starvation problem on my '63, but I hooked up my fuel pressure gauge and it wasn't. It turned out that the new coil that I replaced my old bad coil with was also bad; I checked the resistance across the primary terminals and it was high. Another new coil solved the problem. It felt for all the world like it was starving for fuel - it cut out only under load. Not saying this is definitely your problem, but it's a quick check, especially if you have a spare coil lying around. Agree with this. As my old boss used to say: “90% of fuel problems are ignition related”. Marginal ignition will cut out under load, but might idle and cruise just fine. And you’ve rebuilt or replaced practically everything on the fuel system…so just sayin’. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Testing with an auxiliary fuel tank with electric pump would tell you if it is ignition related or fuel delivery related. Jon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1965rivgs Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 Dave, Troubleshooting any no start or most driveability issues start with the same fork in the road, ie, is it fuel or spark? If you utilize an alternative fuel source, and you have a fuel return system, make sure you route the returned fuel back into the alternative fuel container or you'll be likely to end up on the side of the road or, worse yet, in traffic and out of fuel. Good luck! Tom Mooney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimm63 Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 I agree with checking the coil. MIne did the same thing when the coil was failing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 My first thought was ignition. Have you done a tune up recently and thrown away you know good condenser? I agree with the hidden hose on the fuel tank. The instance where that one got me was a loss at the top end. The car was fine up to 80 MPH, but wouldn't do 100 anymore. It was a '58 Cadillac and I was lucky enough to notice bubbles in the fuel bowl at idle. If you have replaced any fuel hoses on the suction side of the pump double check the fit of the hose. New hose comes from metric scale countries and I have found the fit to be off compared to what we used with inch scale 55 years ago. You find the original Corbin clamp does fit and was replaced with a worm gear clamp. Let that raise suspicion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted January 29 Share Posted January 29 18 hours ago, telriv said: The 1st. thing that I would do is to check the fuel hose from the tank to the frame. Yes. Tom T also recommended Fuel Injection Hose (SAE 30R90) with FI clamps if opting for new hoses in other posts on this subject. It is 3/8" on the suction side, 5/16" between the Carter and mech. Fuel Pump and 1/4" for return line. https://www.continental-engineparts.com/na/en-us/automotive/hoses/automotive-hoses/fuel-hose/products/product-range/fuel-injection-hose-sae-30r9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornpanzers Riv Posted January 29 Author Share Posted January 29 Great tips gentlemen. I appreciate all the input. I’ll check the coil this weekend and get it up on the lift and see how the hoses look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Cannon Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 14 hours ago, Cornpanzers Riv said: It is the original Carter. Do you have the stainless steel plate under the base of the carb, with a carb gasket between the intake manifold and the plate? My stainless steel plate was missing and it caused performance issues like you are experiencing. I actually sandwiched the plate between 2 carb gaskets when I installed it. Made all the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greaseball Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 4 hours ago, Cornpanzers Riv said: Great tips gentlemen. I appreciate all the input. I’ll check the coil this weekend and get it up on the lift and see how the hoses look. Your problem sounds similar to what I experienced this past summer on my ‘65 Riviera. I thought I had a fuel problem, too. Turned out I had an ignition problem instead. My problem ended up being the points. Replacing the points produced a car that ran smooth and strong again. I suggest that you look beyond just your coil and instead look at your ignition system in its entirety. Good luck! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmTee Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 11 hours ago, Greaseball said: My problem ended up being the points. Yes, this is another possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 One of the best first steps in diagnostics is to ask who was the last person to work on it before the problem started and what did they do. Sometimes it may not be the right answer but it brings a solution often enough you need to ask every time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolly_John Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 (edited) 4 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said: One of the best first steps in diagnostics is to ask who was the last person to work on it before the problem started and what did they do. Sometimes it may not be the right answer but it brings a solution often enough you need to ask every time. A good technique to use, Bernie. Actually, I've found this to be a good procedure, even if I was the last person to work on the car! John Edited January 30 by Jolly_John (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 30 Share Posted January 30 My daughter had a V6 Firebird while she was in college up in the North Country. She came home with a skip in the ignition. I found a spark plug wire routed too close to the EGR valve had the insulation burned through. I had put those wires on and there was absolutely no way I would have routed it like that. I was really beside myself with disbelief. I had installed them. I was truly speechless and could not fathom any way I could have done it. Just as sure as my folding money is in my right pocket and my phone and keys in the left, there was no way. Universal laws would be more prone to question. After great distress, angst, incredulous soul searching I remembered that she had an intake manifold leak that was repaired "by others". Must be how my mother raised me. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornpanzers Riv Posted January 31 Author Share Posted January 31 On 1/29/2024 at 9:17 PM, Jim Cannon said: Do you have the stainless steel plate under the base of the carb, with a carb gasket between the intake manifold and the plate? My stainless steel plate was missing and it caused performance issues like you are experiencing. I actually sandwiched the plate between 2 carb gaskets when I installed it. Made all the difference. Yes, I do have the stainless plate. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornpanzers Riv Posted January 31 Author Share Posted January 31 All great tips. Yes, I was last guy to work on the ignition. I did rebuild the distributor, but it was long enough ago that I don’t recall if that was when the problem started or not. I’m happy to throw some points and condenser and a coil at it. That would be a simple fix, thanks for the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 Make sure the condenser is NOS rather than "new", as others have discovered the new ones delaminate internally and cause problems in performance and such. NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 You don't happen to have a set of Uni-points in it do you? If you do have to go for new modern stock (NMS?) get Echlin parts from your NAPA store. They are the best I have found. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
telriv Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) Even the NAPA condensers are NG. Probably all made by the same China manufacturer. Tom T. Edited January 31 by telriv (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greaseball Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 16 hours ago, NTX5467 said: Make sure the condenser is NOS rather than "new", as others have discovered the new ones delaminate internally and cause problems in performance and such. NTX5467 OK, I’ll bite. Where does one get a new NOS condenser these days? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee H Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 I personally would not recommend an NOS or NORS condenser if it’s more than say, 20 years old. Capacitors do have a shelf life. Some constructions last longer than others, but I’d be wary. Just my 2¢. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 (edited) Problem is that the newer ones tend to delaminate internally rather quickly. A few users on the Buick forums but also in the Chrysler forums. The fix were new GM NOS condensers. There are still some out there, apparently. Not discounting the shelf life issue at all. I just know what has been mentioned in the past few months. Of course, the "fix" would be an electronic ignition conversion kit, as Pertronix or similar, or even an HEI Until you put a dial indicator on the breaker cam and measure the height of each lobe do you THEN realize how different they can be from wear. Few newer point sets include that little vial of lube in them, so put in dry, the points' rubbing block wears, dwell changes, car doesn't run well, Cycle repeat. OR you go online and search for a tube of "ignition point grease" like Mallory used to sell (when Mallory was Mallory, before its first sale to Super Shops and then to Holley) or even GM/Delco parts. But that lube will only make the point rubbing block last longer, but not compensate for the cyl-to-cyl dwell and ign timing differences from the different height lobes. When the distributors were new, it was common to "choose one, any lobe" and set the point gap on that lobe. After 75K miles or so, the lobes wear and not evenly. Which means point gap will not be "as set", except on that one lobe. With the varying dwell, "dwell" also affects ignition timing, which can then mean that some cyls will fire earlier than "set" as others can fire later than "set". Might be a range of about 5 crank degrees from quickest to latest? I have NOTHING against ignition points. In some ways, they are superior to electronic systems, but not in the long-term consistency of firing plugs exactly the same on each cylinder on every engine revolution. With the points tension spring putting a side force on the upper distributor shaft, the upper bushing also wears with a points system. With no such side pressure in an electronic ignition distributor, upper bushing wear does not happen to anything close to the same level, by observation. Even after multiple 100Ks of miles. NTX5467 Edited January 31 by NTX5467 (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted January 31 Share Posted January 31 From the other forum, apparently O'R auto parts has condensers made in Mexico, which are better than the ones from Asia. I have also PM'd a guy in PA who deals in distributors and related items to see if I can get an email address for his business. All for now, NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jframe Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Why not solve the points/condensor issue altogether with a Pertronix? I've had one in mine going on at least 8 years, since a prior owner installed it, and it's been great. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avgwarhawk Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 I installed one of these in my 54 13 years ago. As well as new points. No issues. https://www.ebay.com/p/1240587932 Check your vacuum advance is holding vacuum. The plate that holds the points and condenser is in fact moving. And if course the dwell is in spec. Once you verified the ignition as good....look at the carb once again. I know it was rebuilt but...check it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 20 hours ago, NTX5467 said: apparently O'R auto parts has condensers made in Mexico, which are better than the ones from Asia. Good to know. I was going to take a chance on a set of Hyd. Lifters from Mexico. Similar circumstance as that condensor. Meaning, still produced but no longer conforming to any standards let alone QC. I went CHEAP. Tossed the Condensor but kept the Breaker Points! The latter simply triggers a $9 Motorcraft TFI Module from the wreckers. The better "current limiting" principle allows use of any coil. No worry of burning through contacts too quickly. I upgraded to a better Made-in-USA .7 ohm MSD Blaster II Coil. Much more to ignition than elimination of breaker points that uses "coil saturation" principle. A distributor system will only take limited improvements. Doing more is wasting $$$ and being straddled with off-shore parts, compromising original reliability. Edited February 1 by XframeFX (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee H Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 8 hours ago, XframeFX said: I went CHEAP. Tossed the Condensor but kept the Breaker Points! The latter simply triggers a $9 Motorcraft TFI Module from the wreckers. I’d be interesting in seeing the schematic for that adaptation, if you ever feel like posting it. Wasn’t aware you could do that with a TFI. Any idea how much current flows through the points now? i know there are many on the forum that will say there is no advantage to electronic ignition, and that Delco made millions of units, and the engineering was perfected. All true for the most part, but the problem is that there the wearable parts, points and condenser, are no longer the quality they were in 1970. And there’s only so much NOS to go around. And while any real man worth his salt fifty years ado knew how to use a feeler gage and a point file, there are owners today who didn’t grow up with them, and can’t afford a specialty mechanic every time the points need cleaned and re-gapped. Perhaps they are not needed in every circumstance, but there really are a lot of advantages to electronic ignition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 (edited) 6 hours ago, Lee H said: there really are a lot of advantages to electronic ignition. Again, more to a conversion than just breaker point elimination and that would be original Pertronix Ignitor #1181, one-wire SE conversion kits and others. You would still need to use a ballast resistor and old points style coil. Easy to get lost filtering all aftermarket components that really don't provide much in-the-way of improvements. This is my opinion after much research. Delco Breaker points would not survive with the MSD Blaster II coil. Will need to install another high wattage ballast resistor in-series to the existing ballast resistor, yuk! The TFI eliminates that condenser and ballast resistor. You can still use a ballast resistor but it will have to be a high wattage external item unless you stay with an old points style coil. But why? The key to Ignition upgrades to a distributor system is FULL primary voltage, a better coil and longer dwell times (difficult on a shared distributor system). The latter is best accomplished by switching to eight IGN-1A smart coils (or similar) for a true coil near/on plug system (COP). Switching to a current limiting electronic ignition will eliminate the ballast resistor and the bypass in "start mode". Upgraded coils of .7 ohms or better will operate at 14 Vdc even though they say 12 Vdc. If there's a coil failure down the road it is probably due to poor off-shore manufacturing like most aftermarket components. This is why I chose a TFI and MSD Coil, both USA produced. The TFI has a dual path, one for "start" and limp mode (like ballast resistor bypass in "start"). That path is not used (pin #6) As for using the the breaker points to trigger the TFI, there is no electrical load on the contacts. Only the rubbing block will wear but I have it gapped at only .010". Also, changing gap will not affect dwell! In addition, there is minimal side loading of the upper distributor bearing. Finally, the stock appearance remains! I extracted my TFI with harness and heat sink from a 1994 F150. Costed $9 CAD on Black Friday weekend deal. You could accomplish the same with an HEI #D1906 module or in kit form, a Pertronix Ignitor II that uses a Lobe Sensing Hall Effect sensor. All will allow use of a better coil such as Ignitor II or Blaster II. Also, DUI claims to have USA produced components. A quick google search. So, this is a start (disregard 40 ohm resistor): https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8016863 Edited February 1 by XframeFX (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee H Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Sir, that is some good information! I wish I’d known of this when I converted my ‘41 V-12. I too went with a “semi-electronic” system where the points only trigger a Boyer-Bransden ignition box that handles the coil current. Could have saved several hundred bucks, as the V-12 has two separate points and coils… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XframeFX Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 2 hours ago, Lee H said: I too went with a “semi-electronic” system where the points only trigger a Boyer-Bransden ignition box that handles the coil current. Could have saved several hundred bucks, as the V-12 has two separate points and coils… Some CD Boxes make provision for hook-up to existing breaker points. But veering away from Inductive Ignition on a small-cap Distributor may cause arcing between secondary voltage towers. The ever popular HEI distributor still uses Inductive Ignition even with greater separation of towers. A V-12! Definitely have to split to two systems otherwise dwell would be compromised off idle! Two TFI's would've handled that nicely. We're not even addressing Delco-Remy mechanical and vacuum advance. It's adjustable and works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 The then-emerging issue with the large-cap distributors was ozone production within the cap from the hi-voltage sparks jumping around in there, which could cause mis-fires and such. Their cure was to drill two or so small holes for air circulation into the cap. That was back when massive zaps seemed to be desired to light-off the air/fuel mixture. Plus .060"+ plug gaps. Davis built his company on using HEI modules, either in HEI distributors adapted to other motors or with an external-mount HEI module. Why not use an HEI 6-pin module and the "Electronic Spark Control" detonation-limiter/timing retard module to better-adapt the older 10.0CR motors to modern regular-grade fuels? Just need the wiring for the detonation limiter sensor to the module to the distributor. The knock sensor would screw into a block coolant drain plug hole (as Chevy first did). Was the attraction of the Ford TFI module that it had the bracket and wiring harness? Just curious. I suppose you have a plan for when "tissue rejection" might happen? Back in 1962, most of the Capacitive Discharge electronic ignition system items still used the points for their trigger, but with a very small electrical current through them. That allowed for longer point life, but did not address the point of breaker cam wear. Back in those days, the points were set on a "pick one, they're all the same" method. Yet, when I tried to use a dial indicator to set points in a Chrysler 440 dual-point distributor, as I was having trouble getting the dual points set correctly (gap) and getting the total dwell within specs, I discovered the peaks of the breaker cam lobes were NOT all the same height, due to wear. When I saw the significant variations of lobe height (which relate to point gap, dwell, and related timing of each cylinder's spark, I procurred a Chrysler Direct Connection electronic ignition kit (when they were still made and sold by Chrysler, unlike the current "licensed" versions) and did not look back. Using a MSD-5C control box that I bought new when they were available from the original MSD company. The advantage of the 5C box is that it plugged into the factory Chrysler wiring harness. Thanks for the tech information! NTX5467 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NTX5467 Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 Thanks for that link to the Samba forum! Interesting! NTX5467 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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