1933 Lincoln KA Phaeton Project

[alsancle]

Great car.  Crappy 1980s colors.  Also, if you have followed Matt's journey you know waking it won't be trivial.  But a worthwhile project for someone to put their blood sweat and tears in.   The "KA" is the smaller of the two V12 engines for 1933 at 382 cubes.  Only small compared to the KB.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1933-lincoln-ka-phaeton/

 

This 1933 Lincoln KA is one of 12 examples manufactured for the model year with Type 518B single-cowl phaeton coachwork. Chassis KA1140 underwent a refurbishment several decades ago while under the stewardship of a California Packard collector and restorer before being purchased by the seller’s father in 1983 and moved to Pennsylvania. It was sold to the seller in the early 1990s before being placed in storage in the mid-1990s. Finished in beige with brown accents, the car is equipped with a 382ci L-head V12 mated to a three-speed manual transmission. Features include four centrally hinged multi-position wind wings, a beige soft top, servo-assisted mechanically actuated drum brakes with vacuum assistance, thermostatic shock absorbers, orange-painted 18” wire wheels, and dual side-mount spares. This Model KA phaeton is now offered as a non-running project at no reserve with hand-written notes from the collector who restored it, a factory brochure, marque literature, and a clean California title in the seller’s name.

 

[deac]

The 30's Lincolns are beautiful cars but they are out of my price range!  I am currently reading a book on Edsel Ford. There are 3 chapters talking about the designs of the Lincolns and Fords from the thirties. These cars were designed by Edsel and his chief designer E.T. Gregorie. I have often thought that the mid 30's Fords/Lincolns were beautifully designed and now I know why.  But these great designs abruptly stopped with the death of Edsel. That left Edsel's beloved design department and Gregorie unprotected from Henry

other executives who did not believe in Gregorie and the design department. Hence there were some pretty awkward designs right after the war.

[Xander Wildeisen]

Sharp looking car, cheapest part about it. Might be buying it. As alsancle mentioned. The orange wheels would be the first job I would tackle.

[alsancle]

30 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Sharp looking car, cheapest part about it. Might be buying it. As alsancle mentioned. The orange wheels would be the first job I would tackle.

 

Fender color wheels with blackwalls would be a big improvement.  But sadly it has the full 1980s trifecta of brown/beige/orange.

Edited September 9, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

The value of the car could be increased greatly by throwing away the trip lights, the chrome side mount covers, paint the orange wheels the fender color, go to Blackwalls, and install a new darker top.

 

 

[Den41Buick]

And the pleather too!

[alsancle]

23 minutes ago, Den41Buick said:

And the pleather too!

 

Another hallmark of the 1980s.

[Matt Harwood]

It's an inop project in bad colors--with no reserve.

 

It'll go cheap enough for someone to be happy to live with the colors, myself included.

[Sal Hepatica]

Tires are like clothes styles. The current trend is blackwall everything, where in the '80's it was whitewall everything. Except in Europe, where they really never cottoned to whitewalls. Coincides trend wise with what new cars wear.
This KB is better suited for blackwalls, but to each his own. Just don't put wide whites on a post-'62 car, or blackwalls on any upper medium or luxury car mid-fifties through at least the nineties. THAT looks really stupid.

 

 

[Steve_Mack_CT]

Colors are not horrible, car has a lot of eyeball and it's not like it is purple.  Obviously Full Classic sorting effort/expense but a very cool car.  Maybe someone gets a deal like Joe Cocozza did on his PA.  

[alsancle]

13 hours ago, Sal Hepatica said:

Tires are like clothes styles. The current trend is blackwall everything, where in the '80's it was whitewall everything. Except in Europe, where they really never cottoned to whitewalls. Coincides trend wise with what new cars wear.
This KB is better suited for blackwalls, but to each his own. Just don't put wide whites on a post-'62 car, or blackwalls on any upper medium or luxury car mid-fifties through at least the nineties. THAT looks really stupid.

 

 

This is spot on. Which is why I always default to the way the car was built.

 

 

[alsancle]

9 hours ago, Steve_Mack_CT said:

Colors are not horrible, car has a lot of eyeball and it's not like it is purple.  Obviously Full Classic sorting effort/expense but a very cool car.  Maybe someone gets a deal like Joe Cocozza did on his PA.  

Steve, this car is going to be “free“. You need to get in on the ground floor. And believe me, by the time you’re done, it will have been the ground floor.

[Walt G]

My 1930 Packard touring car is sitting about 20 feet away from me. Also restored in the very early 1970s took and AACA first place award then was stored in a  heated garage to "preserve and save it" ??!!  It too has the tan, brown orange colors - flavors of the week and stainless steel spokes too! I have come to tolerate the colors, but still have to come to grips with how to loose the orange on the wheels.  I bought a pair of metal tire covers from a Packard friend and they will be painted fender color and installed .  I like white walls especially on longer wheelbase cars but not showing in the side mounted spare tires. My car had trippe lights on it as well and a mesh stone guard too - all instantly came off , I have factory authorized lamps on the front that I had wired for directional signals, and installed a grille guard that is chrome plated brass and cast bronze that is vertical in style to enhance the design of the radiator shell.

For this Lincoln my opinion is if the wheels are dark brown or fender color and the tires black wall it will make the car look to heavy.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Walt G (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Interesting comment on the “tan/brown/orange” scheme. It was very popular in 1930 & 1931 for Cadillac and LaSalle cars being built for inventory. Having gone through filing cabinets in the archive at Cadillac it was common to see 15 to 20 V-8 Caddy’s in a row to be painted exactly like the Lincoln here. Seemed it was a “standard package” that they were shipping out. It must have done well, as by late December 1930 till production ended in late March the color combo was number two to the ever popular all black.

 

The actual name of the wheel color………” Burnt Orange Moon.”

[alsancle]

11 minutes ago, Walt G said:

My 1930 Packard touring car is sitting about 20 feet away from me. Also restored in the very early 1970s took and AACA first place award then was stored in a  heated garage to "preserve and ave it" ??!!  It too has the tan, brown orange colors - flavors of the week and stainless steel spokes too! I have come to tolerate the colors, but still have to come to grips with how to loose the orange on the wheels.  I bought a pair of metal tire covers from a Packard friend and they will be painted fender color and installed .  I like white walls especially on longer wheelbase cars but not showing in the side mounted spare tires. My car had trippe lights on it as well and a mesh stone guard too - all instantly came off , I have factory authorized lamps on the front that I had wired for directional signals, and installed a grille guard that is chrome plated brass and cast bronze that is vertical in style to enhance the design of the radiator shell.

For this Lincoln my opinion is if the wheels are dark brown or fender color and the tires black wall it will make the car look to heavy.

 

Walt,  I don't hate the brown and beige as much as the orange wheels and whitewalls.  I think the wheels on this car in brown with blackwalls I could learn to live with.

[Walt G]

Wheel color and white or black wall is a major factor in the appearance of any car with any body style. Add in spare tires in the fenders and that just elevates the overall appearance. Tires/wheels are spheres, they begin and "end"  in continuous "motion" so act as Bulls Eyes for the viewer. That is why fenders were starting to be skirted and rear fender skirts added ( spats to the Brits) . It let the lines of the car flow and not be stopped by that sphere shape. Style of wheel matters too - wood, wire, disc. all add to or detract from the overall appearance most of the time unbeknownst to the viewer.  The tan cloth on the roof adds to the flow of the tan on the body, a dark color adds a "lid" to the whole design - that is not BAD, can be very attractive but the wheel, tire, etc factors mentioned will all be a combination that can make or break the appeal of the car visually.

You think tan and brown are "bad" well at that same era a lot of cars - including 7 passenger sedans were being painted maroon body and hood with silver fenders - when was the last time anyone saw that on a recent restoration ?

Most collectors do not look at period color chips and if they do the chips are the size of a postage stamp - the paint chips to seek are about 4 or 41/2 inches by 3 inches. much easier to visualize. I have a "contraption" ( for lack of a better word) that a paint company issued in about 1928 - it is several clear plastic sheets each having a line drawing of a body style on it that you put in a wood  frame and then would take color chip samples and lay behind the transparent plastic to actually see what the car would look like. Small color samples for wheels, then larger for fenders, body. This would make a good story and comment on car paint compatibility. Yes it is from the mid to late 1920s.

[edinmass]

Walt, the 1928-1932 Cadillac dealership Art & Colour (correct spelling) leather bound boxes had outlines of car body styles with changeable page size paint chips to show customers what the car would look like in the various factory colors. I have only seen three of these items, all in the same collection in upstate NY. I have several of the boxes and they contain upholstery samples and other info. 

[prewarnut]

Somehow you never see people spending six figures to restore these and then go ahead to paint it chicle and copra....

[cjmarzoli]

On 9/9/2023 at 3:53 PM, alsancle said:

 

Fender color wheels with blackwalls would be a big improvement.  But sadly it has the full 1980s trifecta of brown/beige/orange.

Which is slightly better than the 70's "standard" resto color scheme of two tone baby blue!

[cjmarzoli]

On 9/9/2023 at 6:16 PM, Sal Hepatica said:

Tires are like clothes styles. The current trend is blackwall everything, where in the '80's it was whitewall everything. Except in Europe, where they really never cottoned to whitewalls. Coincides trend wise with what new cars wear.
This KB is better suited for blackwalls, but to each his own. Just don't put wide whites on a post-'62 car, or blackwalls on any upper medium or luxury car mid-fifties through at least the nineties. THAT looks really stupid.

 

 

You nailed it exactly!  Blackwalls make a 1950's-80's car look dumpy.   Whitewalls make some 20's and 30's cars look like clown cars.

[cjmarzoli]

On 9/10/2023 at 7:33 PM, prewarnut said:

Somehow you never see people spending six figures to restore these and then go ahead to paint it chicle and copra....

Chicle and copra would look good on this...what amazes me is people spend scores/hundreds of thousands restoring a car and don't even attempt to find a correct color scheme or do any research and just paint it whatever random colors they want.  Insane!

[Joe Cocuzza]

Look better with cream colored wheels???

Maybe with blackwalls because with the whitewalls there is no "separation/distinction" between the tire and the rim.

Still looks nice though.

[Joe Cocuzza]

On 9/9/2023 at 9:59 PM, Steve_Mack_CT said:

"Maybe someone gets a deal like Joe Cocozza did on his PA."

 

Hey, I "resemble" that remark.......

[alsancle]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:58 AM, Joe Cocuzza said:

Look better with cream colored wheels???

Maybe with blackwalls because with the whitewalls there is no "separation/distinction" between the tire and the rim.

Still looks nice though.

 

 

Absolutely,  but even better with wheels that match the fender color.

[DavidinCA]

If as Ed says changing the tires, wheel colors, removing the Tripp lights and chrome tire covers would drastically improve it, that doesn’t seem like a ton of work.  Changing the top is more, but at least it’s a defined project.  A color change and correct leather interior are, to me, a much bigger project and opening a major can of worms. I’d think it better to enjoy as is.  

 

To me, the biggest issue is not running since that could be major money and it’s not a simple engine to work on.  

[Matt Harwood]

Talking about color changes on this car is kind of like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Even if the engine is in good shape internally, it's still $10-15,000 away from being ready to drive before you even spray a drop of paint.

 

Fortunately, I think the car will be bought relatively cheaply and it'll make the fixing a more palatable proposition. Running and driving, even in its current colors, that's an $80,000 car. There's some room there to make improvements unless the bidding really goes crazy. 

[prewarnut]

...for what it's worth this was an advertised wheel color.

[Fossil]

There are shades of those colors that are hard to swallow. The colors on this car I'd feel comfortable with. Heck I'd even drive it and drive it and drive it. 

[wayne sheldon]

Eight and a quarter hours to go, and current bid is $40,000. This could get interesting. And for whatever it is worth? I could live with the colors and upholstery. Can't really see the upholstery when you are sitting on it and driving! When it comes to tan and brown for colors? These are better than most.

[edinmass]

Without the car running, whatever someone pays they should assume the engine needs a total rebuild. Why on such a nice car does the seller not have a local tractor mechanic toss in a battery to spin it over........or fire it off on a small boost bottle of fuel. It running for 60 seconds on a video would push the price up 20 grand.............too easy to just say......ran when parked.........

[JV Puleo]

I was wondering the same thing. Either it's in the hands of someone who has no idea how to get it running and no one to ask (a widow perhaps) or there is something clearly wrong with it....like it's stuck (my guess) or worse. I agree with Ed, either way, anyone bidding should presume that it will need a complete engine job. If it doesn't' that's so much the better. I've become very skeptical of the mechanical condition of "restored" cars. Unless I know who did the work and what was done I'd tend to discount all "restored" or "engine rebuilt" claims. But, I'm not in the market and my opinion doesn't carry any weight.

 

I could live with the colors, mostly because I couldn't afford to change them but, in general, I hate all "fad" color combinations which generally show lack of knowledge or imagination by whoever chose them.

[DavidinCA]

Ran when parked is almost as helpful as a/c needs a charge, it rarely tells the entire story.  I’m 100% with Ed on assume it needs a full rebuild. You might be pleasantly surprised when you get it, but somehow I doubt it.  Not running also means you can’t test brakes, transmission, etc until it’s yours.  

 

It’s not like a non-running Chevy which is at least a known entity, this could be a high 5 or even 6 figure oops depending on what it needs.  On the other hand, what a cool car when it’s done.  It just means someone needs to go in fully prepared and with a good understanding of the skill and/or money needed to make it a functional automobile. 

[Joe Cocuzza]

15 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

 

15 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Talking about color changes on this car is kind of like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Even if the engine is in good shape internally, it's still $10-15,000 away from being ready to drive before you even spray a drop of paint.

 

Fortunately, I think the car will be bought relatively cheaply and it'll make the fixing a more palatable proposition. Running and driving, even in its current colors, that's an $80,000 car. There's some room there to make improvements unless the bidding really goes crazy. 

A little over 2 hours to go and high bid is $50,000........

[Matt Harwood]

I hope the seller gets all the money in the world for it. I hope the new owner doesn't have an engine rebuild in his future. I hope the new owner loves the color combination. I hope it gets driven until the tires are bald.

 

The nice thing about BaT and cars like this is that they peanut gallery typically knows nothing about them. There's nobody to nit-pick it like they do with Corvettes and BMWs. They just think it's beautiful and [mostly] have no idea what it's really worth or what's involved with recommissioning it. I guarantee the high bidder(s) believe it's just a tank of gas, some fresh fluids, and a battery away from being ready to run again. I don't know if we'll ever find out how it turns out, but the reality will probably be eye-opening for someone.

 

As I said, if someone wants this car right and even if everything is a go internally, there's still $10,000-15,000 minimum to be spent before they try to turn the key. I'm not sure it's fair to mention that in the auction (I hesitate to skunk it for the seller) but it'll need a complete fuel system and a complete cooling system at the very least. My radiator was $2500 and I think that was cheap. Water pump was $1000 and I'm going to have to do it twice. Carburetor rebuild was $1200. Gas tank was $800. Fuel pump was $700. Dual Optima batteries were $900. Tires will be $500 each x 6 + tubes + flaps + mounting. Gas tank restoration was $800. Hell, just fresh oil and coolant will be more than $200. Add in the fact that I did all the assembly and tuning myself and that stuff is probably 100 hours of labor, so if you're paying a shop that's a quick $20,000+ bill right there. The seller keeps acting like the car hasn't been sitting for very long since he parked it in the '90s, but that was 30 YEARS AGO.

 

I personally think it would be foolhardy to try to start that engine without removing the heads, dropping the pan, and looking at the valves. A gasket set is $1200 and head gaskets alone are $500.

 

Of course the way things go, this car will get a battery and gas at the hands of a hack mechanic and will run perfectly. Everybody gets lucky except me, it seems.

[ericmac]

49 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

Everybody gets lucky except me, it seems.

No Matt...not everybody.  There is a reason I unloaded the '37 Cadillac I owned for one season.  Very quickly I could see that I was going to head down the same road you were on at that time. I miss the car but my wife is not as tolerant as yours and trouble was brewing as the bills mounted.  In short, it became clear it was the car or the marriage.  I'm still married...but not to the Cadillac. 

 

50 K for the Lincoln as I write this. It's out of my league in more ways than one. May the Force be with the buyer.

Edited September 15, 2023 by ericmac
Clarification (see edit history)

[Joe Cocuzza]

Final and winning bid - $62,000.00

 

What does everyone think: as Howie Mandell would ask, " DEAL OR NO DEAL"?

 

"Maybe someone gets a deal like Joe Cocozza did on his PA."

Seeing this auction shows that I did, indeed, get the "DEAL OF A LIFETIME" on my Pierce Arrow.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Joe Cocuzza
spelling (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

I think it's a little strong for a non-running car but if the engine doesn't need everything he'll be OK.

[Joe Cocuzza]

General consensus in the BAT Comments section is that the high bidder got a "Great Deal" and "A Steal"

[alsancle]

39 minutes ago, Joe Cocuzza said:

General consensus in the BAT Comments section is that the high bidder got a "Great Deal" and "A Steal"

 

The BAT comment section is populated by idiots.   However, I think this could be both well sold and a deal all at the same time.  The buyer won't know until he spends some time and money to find out.   If the engine doesn't need a 75k rebuild then I think he did ok.

[Fossil]

3 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Everybody gets lucky except me, it seems.

I can only wish you were right about this. I still haven't been able to drive my DeSoto since last year because the engine was junk. Can only blame myself as I wasn't in a position to view the vehicle myself before hand. It sold cheap and I got what I paid for. Can't wait to get it going again.