Question for the Duesenberg aficionados here present

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, Dave Henderson said:

Ed, With Mr. King being the original owner from, lets say the mid '30's, and you are taking care of two of Mr. King's cars now, just what is the secret to his longevity??

Clean living!

[George K]

49 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Here is what was published on the car at Amelia……….I currently caretake two of Mr King’s cars in our collection. He owned a bunch of fantastic stuff. 

 

 

I hear the names Hach and DeBickero and it’s a flashback. Grew up in the Chicago area. Bill Hach had a shop next to a great little Mexican restaurant I frequented. I saw all kinds of ACD stuff laying around in his fenced yard. Here’s a couple of pages from the ACD club Illinois membership roster. Check out the occupations givenIn the mid 1970’s. That’s when you could get a laugh.

[alsancle]

13 minutes ago, George K said:

I hear the names Hach and DeBickero and it’s a flashback. Grew up in the Chicago area. Bill Hach had a shop next to a great little Mexican restaurant I frequented. I saw all kinds of ACD stuff laying around in his fenced yard. Here’s a couple of pages from the ACD club Illinois membership roster. Check out the occupations givenIn the mid 1970’s. That’s when you could get a laugh.

 

George,  as of recently Jim was still alive.  There is a forum member who is friends with him.  Check out the last 20 pages or so of the Mercedes thread and you will see some of Jim's cars.

[edinmass]

Mr King is long gone………..he was one of about ten Americans who bought multiple cars each year, and it was all fantastic stuff. He had a Frank Loyd Right home on the Great Lakes. Like the Duesenberg, his other cars were exceptionally special……..the two I service were much more expensive new than the Brunn Duesenberg. He had as many great cars as did Tommy Manville. 

[George K]

23 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

George,  as of recently Jim was still alive.  There is a forum member who is friends with him.  Check out the last 20 pages or so of the Mercedes thread and you will see some of Jim's cars.

I saw that. Good fo him. When I bought Bart Loyens parts , records and  archives I was surprised by how many great cars Jim DeBickero had purchased through Bart. Good taste never goes out of style.

 

 

[Dave Henderson]

Ed,
Wow, I don't know but would like to know what the King cars are that you care for that are so valuable, SSJ's? Bugatti Royale's?  Teddy Kennedy's Oldsmobile, oops.
You may sometimes detect subdued humor in my remarks, such my question concerning Mr. King's secret to longevity. 
My high school yearbook's  epitaph was "Devilish as can be"... 
Dave

Edited May 12, 2023 by Dave Henderson (see edit history)

[wayne sheldon]

43 minutes ago, George K said:

Check out the occupations given

 

1 hour ago, George K said:

In the mid 1970’s. That’s when you could

 

1 hour ago, George K said:

get a laugh.

I did get a kick out of several of those!

 

 

[Tph479]

2 hours ago, George K said:

I hear the names Hach and DeBickero and it’s a flashback. Grew up in the Chicago area. Bill Hach had a shop next to a great little Mexican restaurant I frequented. I saw all kinds of ACD stuff laying around in his fenced yard. Here’s a couple of pages from the ACD club Illinois membership roster. Check out the occupations givenIn the mid 1970’s. That’s when you could get a laugh.

I came across this picture a few weeks ago with Charlie Fabian’s 1937 Cord supercharged phaeton in the background at Roxas’s shop after he smacked a deer with it. Charlie had dual buell trumpet air horns on his car and when he would unexpectedly stop by the house when I was a kid he would blast the horns and scare the blank out of everyone. They were extremely loud! His car was always a fan favorite at the acd Auburn meet parade. He would  tell us stories about how much fun he had in that car back in his single, bar hopping days. If you look up Whiskey Dent in the dictionary there probably is a picture of his old car next to it.
 

Charlie lived 3 blocks away from us on the Southside of Chicago…. So of course he had vogue tires on his car. After rearranging the front of his cord by mowing down the deer, he put deer whistles on everyone of his cars. It was the joke among everyone that you could hear Charlie coming from a mile away…

[Tph479]

2 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

George,  as of recently Jim was still alive.  There is a forum member who is friends with him.  Check out the last 20 pages or so of the Mercedes thread and you will see some of Jim's cars.

I talked to Jim last week. He is sharp as a tack and has a photogenic memory when it comes to the cars that he owned. If my memory serves me right from a few years ago, I think he had about 12 Duesenberg’s mostly J’s and like 8 500s, 540’s. Most of his cars were the best of the best. 
 

 He had a Willoghby sedan body in his rear yard that his kids used as a play pen. His stories are crazy as to how he scored cars. I tell him that he should write a book on the early days of collecting and the characters that he came across. Sometimes I joke to him that he is the best pathological liar that I have every met and next thing you know he will show a picture and have his notes on the back of it.

[George K]

36 minutes ago, Tph479 said:

I came across this picture a few weeks ago with Charlie Fabian’s 1937 Cord supercharged phaeton in the background at Roxas’s shop after he smacked a deer with it. Charlie had dual buell trumpet air horns on his car and when he would unexpectedly stop by the house when I was a kid he would blast the horns and scare the blank out of everyone. They were extremely loud! His car was always a fan favorite at the acd Auburn meet parade. He would  tell us stories about how much fun he had in that car back in his single, bar hopping days. If you look up Whiskey Dent in the dictionary there probably is a picture of his old car next to it.
 

Charlie lived 3 blocks away from us on the Southside of Chicago…. So of course he had vogue tires on his car. After rearranging the front of his cord by mowing down the deer, he put deer whistles on everyone of his cars. It was the joke among everyone that you could hear Charlie coming from a mile away…

[Tph479]

2 minutes ago, George K said:

The 1908 Brush was found under a coal pile at his foundry on Michigan Ave. You can see the deer whistles on top of the turn signals on the bumper of the Cord.

[West Peterson]

13 hours ago, edinmass said:

Here is what was published on the car at Amelia……….I currently caretake two of Mr King’s cars in our collection. He owned a bunch of fantastic stuff. 

 

 

Winona is in Minnesota, by the way, not wisconsin 

[George K]

8 hours ago, Tph479 said:

The 1908 Brush was found under a coal pile at his foundry on Michigan Ave. You can see the deer whistles on top of the turn signals on the bumper of the Cord.

I bought a Austro Daimler radiator from Charlie. He dug it out of that coal pile. Charlie’s father owned the foundry and bought the Austro Daimler from a Great Lakes Ship company as unclaimed freight. Drove it for some time but one day in cold weather it wouldn’t start. Charlie’s father recycled the car by melting it at the foundry. I also bought the A D photos and literature from him. It went to Fred Simeone and probably still in his library. Pictures aren’t of the car but the same type.

[Cadillac Fan]

Come visit the Gilmore Car Museum in Hickory Corners, Michigan to see it today.  
 

 

 

 

[Cadillac Fan]

Right next to j-231

 

 

 

[alsancle]

J231 is one of my favorite Duesenbergs.

[Rusty_OToole]

I have heard a lot of fantastic claims of Duesenberg horsepower like the above sign claiming 320HP. This is more than double the HP claimed by similar classic V12 and straight eight cars. I know the Duesy has the advantage of overhead cams and a supercharger but I doubt it was that good. Has anyone put a typical Duesenberg engine on a dyno recently?

[Cadillac Fan]

3 hours ago, alsancle said:

J231 is one of my favorite Duesenbergs.

Yes.  It is fantastic.  Long wheel base, disappearing top, huge doors pivoting on a gigantic piano hinge.  Just amazing.  

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, Rusty_OToole said:

I have heard a lot of fantastic claims of Duesenberg horsepower like the above sign claiming 320HP. This is more than double the HP claimed by similar classic V12 and straight eight cars. I know the Duesy has the advantage of overhead cams and a supercharger but I doubt it was that good. Has anyone put a typical Duesenberg engine on a dyno recently?

 

The 320 is for the Supercharged engine.   The normally aspirated engine was rated at 265HP.   Period dyno records from Lycomming show HP over 200 and over 300 for the supercharged engines with the Special Dual Carb supercharged engines producing much more. 

 

Has been a big debate for years.   Typically,  anyone that has driven one (at least a decent running example) usually becomes a believer.

 

 

[Rusty_OToole]

Over 200 is a long way from 265. I can almost buy 320HP for a hand built supercharged racing engine built for setting Bonneville records in the Mormon Meteor. Especially if they were using AVgas. 200HP from a naturally aspirated motor seems possible. 265HP unsupercharged on 1930 pump gas seems a bit shall we say, optimistic? That would be 100HP more than claimed by other luxury cars of similar displacement.

[West Peterson]

I believe Jay Leno put one on a Dyno, but interestingly he never revealed the results. Like Rusty, I'm skeptical.

[edinmass]

 

I have seen the actual factory test records and charts when visiting Randy………..including the engineering analysis. For the life of me I can’t remember the actual numbers……..but I seem to think it was 245-265 depending of fine tuning by specialists.  I think 240 is a very fair number……….and with pop up pistons, hotter cams, and all the other special upgrades…….today 265 I would say a fair number. As far as SC goes………the guys who actually drive them say it’s almost not noticeable……..it takes a lot of HP to spin it, so the net gain is fairly small. In my humble opinion the blowers are not worth the extra complications and reliability issues associated with them. (Don’t get me wrong, I want a blower car.) Very very few people have driven a Model J to the limit. A small handful of owners push them……..but I count those people on one hand and maybe a two fingers in my other. Most hot dogging is done from a rolling start to protect and respect the cars and not dump all the power into the drive train. My only concern when dumping on a J is seconded gear………they can easily explode from a poor design internally. On a great running J the experience is hard to describe…….and only about 25 are really set up and running at their potential from my experience. Installing a modern Tremic transmission and I think thrashing a J is a fairly safe thing with modern rods, pistons, ect………..The big drawback is the Model J mass………it’s just such a dump truck that you need a bunch of miles in them to really understand how to drive it to the edge safely. Personally, I never hot dog a J unless it has drop center wheels on it. I have seen too many wheel failures in person to trust any car that I haven’t personally had my hands on…….

 

 

PS- just normal driving on a J is still a 100 percent better experience than anything else you can think of, remembering it’s a road car and not a race car. Very few things give you a rush like a J. Maybe a Speed Six or another race car platform……….but not much. Off to drive a Speed Six today…..

Edited June 5, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

What really made me skeptical was the records set by Pierce Arrow in the early thirties. They took a pre production test 1932 V12 roadster to Bonneville and set a record average of 112.91 MPH for 24 hours, a remarkable achievement for what was not considered a fast or sporty car, but a car for tycoons and dowagers. This car was rated 175HP. The next year they raised it to 117.77MPH with a slightly modified motor. The third year, 1934, they came back with a streamlined body and motor hopped up to a claimed 235HP and made 127MPH.

 

Let that sink in. 3 full 24 hour speed records averaging 112 to 127 mph without a mechanical failure or involuntary stop. This at a time when Rolls Royce warned their owners not to run their car wide open for more than 5 minutes for fear of blowing the engine and several years before the Grosser Mercedes supercharged straight eight, which likewise warned their owners not to run wide open for more than 2 minutes. Rolls had a top speed around 90, Mercedes 102 with supercharger engaged.

 

Now we come to the Duesenberg. In 1935 they came after the Pierce record with the same driver, Ab Jenkins, and a specially built supercharged race car called the Mormon Meteor. With this car he raised the 24 hour record to 135.57MPH. Apparently that was all they could get out of the Duesenberg motor because the next year they came back with the same car with a Curtis Conqueror aircraft engine.

 

The Duesenberg and Pierce Arrow were both built on stock or slightly modified stock chassis and were similar in size and weight. The Duesenberg was faster so it must have been more powerful. Pierce claimed 235HP so I can believe the Duesy had 300 or even 320HP. But this was a specially built racing engine tuned to the limit by factory engineers, running at high altitude which reduces air resistance and allows higher compression or higher supercharger pressure and possibly running on aviation gas although I don't know that for sure. That this was the limit for the engine is proven by the fact that they went to a bigger engine for subsequent record attempts.

 

If this was the case then when they said the supercharged engine was capable of 320HP they weren't lying but let's say they had their fingers crossed.

 

Bear in mind that every Duesenberg was a custom built car and that included the engine. They all had the same 420 cu in straight eight but there were quite a few variations

 

- 3 pistons giving 3 different compression ratios, low - standard - high compression

 

- 3 intake systems, single carburetor - dual carbs - supercharger

 

- 3 exhaust systems, single - dual - multiple supercharged

 

- 2 overhead camshafts which can be timed independently. By advancing and retarding the cams you can enhance low speed running at the expense of high speed, or vice versa.

 

An engine built for ultimate smooth silent power in a heavy limousine or town car meant for city and suburban use, might have low compression, single carb, single exhaust, and cams timed for best low and mid range running. Such a motor might develop 175 HP or so, similar to other luxury cars

 

An engine built for a sports job for a savvy owner who knew how to treat a high performance car, might have dual carbs, dual exhaust, high compression, and cams timed for top speed. Such an engine would go in a light car like one of the special short wheelbase SSJ  roadsters built for a couple of Hollywood stars. I can believe that motor made 265HP or something close to it.

 

Those are just 3 of the 400 odd Duesies built. I doubt most of them had anything close to 265HP but what difference does that make? Developed horsepower may affect top speed but has little meaning in normal driving. I can believe any Duesenberg was a thrill to drive. As well it should be for the price. But I suspect a little exaggeration has crept in here and there.

[1937hd45]

6 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

The 320 is for the Supercharged engine.   The normally aspirated engine was rated at 265HP.   Period dyno records from Lycomming show HP over 200 and over 300 for the supercharged engines with the Special Dual Carb supercharged engines producing much more. 

 

Thank you for the video. Has been a big debate for years.   Typically,  anyone that has driven one (at least a decent running example) usually becomes a believer.

 

 

I'll never have this problem, but the size and height of J hand brake and gear shift levers just looks so out of place. Would the car be confiscated if the owner decided to shorten them so they fit under the dashboard? 

Edited June 5, 2023 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Rusty…….. your analysis of the Pierce Arrow 12 is spot on. That’s why the engine ended up in a fire truck  pumping water at 80% throttle for days on end. Ran into the mid-1970s as Frontline units from the early 50s. Pierce did a little bit more than just a tweak for the 24 hour runs. Not trying to rain on their parade, but I want to be fair. Intake, exhaust, cams, and carbs were tweaked. I’ll confess to 225 hp on my Pierce 12……..yes, it’s “stock”. 😇
 

And that’s why it runs along side the J’s without struggling.

Edited June 7, 2023 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

Horsepower numbers are suspect for all cars across history.    How it was measured, what accessories were present, how tuned was the measured engine vs production engines, etc.  

 

So everything is relative.   A Model J kicks almost any other cars ass from the same period except purpose built road race cars.   So the HP numbers are probably inflated, and so is everybody else's.  

 

A Speed Six would probably outrun a Model J,  but it is a race car.  The body weighs about 50 lbs.

 

I'm a Mercedes guy but a big huge Model J blew doors on the smaller and lighter Harpo Marx  S car at Muroc in period.   The S and SS Mercedes were competitive against Bentley in Grand Prix racing.   They were road going race cars.

 

Edited June 5, 2023 by alsancle (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

Having a lot of wheel time with a Packard Speedster, I'd  venture a guess that it would do quite well in competition with the Duesy. Top speed is about the same, and the Packard weighs a minimum of 1,000 pounds less.

[AHa]

To answer the OP's original question, Old Cars Weekly lists 10 Duesenbergs that are lost. Some are presumed to have met their demise because the circumstances of their demise are supposedly well known but others simply disappeared, according to the article I read. The truth is an elusive thing. Are there any unknown Duesenbergs out there? It wouldn't surprise me if there were. Like one old guy said, "The stories of my demise are greatly exaggerated."

[Hemi Joel]

8 hours ago, West Peterson said:

Having a lot of wheel time with a Packard Speedster, I'd  venture a guess that it would do quite well in competition with the Duesy. Top speed is about the same, and the Packard weighs a minimum of 1,000 pounds less.

Well West, that sounds like a challenge! 

[Hemi Joel]

On 6/5/2023 at 3:34 PM, alsancle said:

 

 

I'm a Mercedes guy but a big huge Model J blew doors on the smaller and lighter Harpo Marx  S car at Muroc in period.   The S and SS Mercedes were competitive against Bentley in Grand Prix racing.   They were road going race cars.

 

  

 

Al, I'm glad you brought this story up. I just posted up a thread with the entire story. It is one of my favorite true automotive stories of all time.

[edinmass]

In comparing a Model J to a Speed Six………….the J is a much more refined car and a better overall driving platform. The Speed Six is a fast dump truck in comparison to a J which handles three times better than the WO car. And Model J’s aren’t much of a thing to brag about when it comes to road manners……..reading between the lines……the Speed Six is a much more difficult car to drive. I did 200 miles in a Speed Six today. Let’s just say that after your behind the wheel for an hour…….your ready for a break.

[Rusty_OToole]

Ed I am glad you said it not me. I saw a drawing of the Speed Six chassis years ago and thought the suspension and steering setup looked awful. It looked like the springs had about 2 inches of travel and the only thing that kept it from weaving all over the road when it hit a bump, was that the wheels couldn't move.

[bryankazmer]

4 hours ago, edinmass said:

 The Speed Six is a fast dump truck 

Ettore Bugatti called the Bentley "the fastest truck in the world."

[58L-Y8]

6 hours ago, edinmass said:

"……the Speed Six is a much more difficult car to drive. I did 200 miles in a Speed Six today. Let’s just say that after your behind the wheel for an hour…….your ready for a break."

Sounds like damning with faint praise...

[wayne sheldon]

5 hours ago, 58L-Y8 said:

Sounds like damning with faint praise...

 

Pretty sure that is how he meant it!

[edinmass]

This week’s adventure……photo by friend. I’m in the front row just right of center…..

 

 

[Grimy]

I'd know you anywhere, Ed!  🙂

[West Peterson]

You've always been a little right of center...

[Grimy]

19 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

You've always been a little right of center...

Ed is to the right of Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan....

[George K]

12 hours ago, edinmass said:

This week’s adventure……photo by friend. I’m in the front row just right of center…..

 

 

Bentley Boys of Leisure ? Check out this woman’s connection to Bentley. Dorothy Padgett.