Question about vehicles deaccessioned from the AACA Museum

[rackops]

Greetings all:

My first post - be gentle!

 

In the past, I've owned a few Model As and really enjoyed them. Now that I've retired from the military and settled down a bit (it was a pain moving cars and car parts!) I'm looking at buying another antique car. I've run across one I really like and found out it used to be on display at the AACA Museum and was relatively recently deaccessioned. I have some experience in the museum business as well, so I am familiar with museums "refocusing" and so on. I've also searched on here and googled the museum and discovered the large amount of heartburn between the Club and Museum.

That said, what I'm looking for is if there's any rhyme or reason why the AACA Museum deaccessions vehicles. Could it be that they got a "better" example of the vehicle? Or perhaps they were running low on funds? What I'm trying to figure out is if there's any other reason why they'd deaccession a vehicle...in other words, were I to buy this car, am I buying a ticking time bomb where they got rid of it because of issues it may or may not have been having? Is the original owner/donor's estate going to take me to court to get their vehicle back? Or is it pretty straightforward and above board? 

Thanks in advance for your advice!

Dave

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

27 minutes ago, rackops said:

My first post - be gentle! 

Dave, welcome to the forum.  You'll find this forum

to be very friendly, and there is a lot of knowledge here.

 

The AACA Museum sells some cars because they were

specifically donated to be sold, to fund the museum.

Most, if not all, cars they sell are in this category.

 

Also, this museum was established with the intent that

cars in the collection do not languish.  I don't know how

well that is achieved, but they are not intended to sit idle

for years and years.  In other museums, a car in the long-term

collection may have significant problems from lack of use.

 

And despite the separation of the museum from the club,

we do not hold them in ill regard.  People there may be

our friends, and locally, members may be active in the 

AACA and also volunteer at the museum.

 

My recommendation:  Even if the museum doesn't own

the car currently, call Jeff Bliemeister their curator and

ask about the car.  Ask how long the museum had

the car.  Ask about its maintenance and repair schedule.

Ask them what the car sold for, and when it sold.

You may get a worthy car to add to your enjoyment!

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[rackops]

Thanks for the welcome, John!

I didn't think to ask about the maintenance schedule for the car. I did ask the seller for whatever paperwork they have on it, as I hope that all of the documentation has been kept together, but I've learned not to assume anything...people are sometimes strange when it comes to keeping old paper like that (particularly when it has people's names/addresses and such on it). Depending on what paperwork was conveyed with the car from the auction, I'll contact the Museum and find out what they still have on record about the car. 

 

As far as I can see, the car was gifted to the Museum back in about 2007 or so following the death of the widow (the car is mentioned in her obituary...first time I've seen that!) and then the Museum sent it to auction this last year, where it sold. I'm now trying to connect the ownership/care dots to establish the history of the car, and trying to make sure I'm not buying a headache (been there, done that already...). The current seller has kept the car in almost the exact condition as when it was sold by the museum (comparing listing photos), though they are definitely wanting a premium for it, being formerly on display in the Museum (it is a bit ironic, since it was the Museum that sold it!) 

Thanks again for the welcome and advice. Much appreciated!

Dave

 

 

 

[Paul Dobbin]

Before the Museum was built they began collecting donated vehicles in a big metal building down the hill behid the Museum site.   I was there once when the building was almost full with car stacked 3 high in shelves., and ground for the Museum was not broken yet.    The  intent was then to run all the donated vehicles through the museum and then cull out some for cash to run the enterprise.   Donated cars don't come with bricks & mortar, sales generate cash for supplies.

Also, not all donations were museum quality.   Glad you got one  you liked and can enjoy.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Paul Dobbin
added the 3 high comment (see edit history)

[Peter J.Heizmann]

Rackops:   As John advised phone the museum after the holiday for the latest facts.  717-566-7100

 

Most of the responses so far have well intended speculation of facts or faded memory from years ago.  This forum is the AACA club and we have nothing to do with the museum.

 

p.s.--years ago I loaned a sportcar to them for a 6 month display of sportscars.  To me it does not mean it was part of their museum vehicles.  Watch that the seller is not misleading you.

 

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

5 hours ago, rackops said:

...the Museum sent it to auction this last year, where it sold....

The current seller has kept the car in almost the exact condition as when it was sold by the museum...

That means that the current seller has had the

car for only a year.  You might ask him why he is

selling after only a year.  It could mean one of many

things, either not so good or good:

 

(1)  He bought it to resell as a flipper or a dealer.

(2)  He had problems and wants to get rid of it.

(3)  Various other legitimate reasons.

 

If you tell us what the car is--at least generally, such as

a 1920's Packard or a 1940's Buick or a 1980's Camaro--

we might give some more specific advice.  Mechanical

problems can be solved for many cars and can be

cheaper than bodywork and repainting, especially if

the car isn't rare or an early model.

[hidden_hunter]

5 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

If you tell us what the car is--at least generally, such as

a 1920's Packard or a 1940's Buick or a 1980's Camaro--

we might give some more specific advice.  Mechanical

problems can be solved for many cars and can be

cheaper than bodywork and repainting, especially if

the car isn't rare or an early model.

and if it was in the museum during those years some of us might even have photos of it on display 

[trimacar]

My personal opinion is that being displayed in any museum does not add to the value of a car.  

 

But, I also don’t believe being a background car in a movie is much claim to fame, so I’m probably in the minority.

 

I think the only disappointing thing is that I’d bet many donors to the museum in question thought they were donating vehicles to the AACA Club, which turned out not to be the case.

[alsancle]

Welcome.  Thank you for your service.   Museum history is generally regarded as a bad thing on here because museum cars tend to not be driven or maintained.

[Restorer32]

I have an acquaintance who purchased and resold 2 (possibly more ) cars from the museum and they were just your typical old cars with the usual problems associated with cars that are not exercised regularly. "Museum  quality" is a meaningless term.

 

 

 

[31 LaSalle]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

My personal opinion is that being displayed in any museum does not add to the value of a car.  

 

But, I also don’t believe being a background car in a movie is much claim to fame, so I’m probably in the minority.

 

I think the only disappointing thing is that I’d bet many donors to the museum in question thought they were donating vehicles to the AACA Club, which turned out not to be the case.

HI  trimacar    

true on all three points especially the second one

[TAKerry]

Welcome to the forum. I would contact the museum and see if anyone there knows the car. I think most of the people there are easy to get along with. Like said, many reasons why the car was let go. If its not a particularly rare vehicle keep your eyes open, this forum is a great place to find a car. I would def. not pay a premium for the 'museum provenance' unless it was maybe from the Simeone, LOL. In fact I would detract a bit from the price (unless it truly is an outstanding example, perfect in every way car). Good Luck.

[alsancle]

You see it all the time, where someone will leave a car to a museum. I think people feel like that means their gogomobile will be displayed in perpetuity in the lobby. More likely, it will sit in the annex for three years, and then be auctioned off. Keeping a big building going is very expensive.

 

I’m still supportive of donating stuff to the museums, but the chances of your car being there forever are pretty slim. 

[rackops]

All:

Thank you for all of your posts - you've given me some great things to think about and look into. Very much appreciated!

As far as some of the questions, I think this car was pretty much bought to flip...the current seller is making a pretty penny on the sale (and that's even with negotiating) but at the same time...I like the car and if I plan on keeping it for the next 30+ years (I'm still relatively young)   it will work itself out in the long run. That said...I also don't want to buy something that's going to be a headache either, so I'm trying to do as much due diligence as possible (and there are a lot of great options out there for cars to buy).

 

Here's a photo of the car on display in the museum (below). If you google the car, it's pretty much the only one being offered for sale right now, so there are plenty of photos of it on the internet. 

 

Thanks again for your advice!

Dave

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by rackops (see edit history)

[TAKerry]

Looks like it was a prominent display, I am sure there is someone on the staff (or volunteers) that knows of it. As far as price and flipping, It doesnt matter how much the current seller is making as a profit ( I try to make as much profit as I can every day I go to work) as long as youre happy with the price you are paying. 

[rackops]

And, for what it's worth, here's the listing when it was sold at auction from the Museum. 

[rackops]

Between the Carlisle auction and the current seller, the only difference is it appears that someone rattle-can painted the engine... 

[alsancle]

When I get in front of a computer I’ll try to look at the car more closely.

[trimacar]

This car was bid on EBay to $16,900, listed by dealer and current owner?
 

Do what you wish if you love it, $39,900 is way over what this car would bring normally.  I think it’s a $20,000 car at most.

 

But, as stated, if you love it and plan to keep for thirty years, cost is not the main consideration.  Consider it an investment in your happiness.

 

A few years back, a friend called, he’d been looking for a specific car which had been built in his home town.  He found one, asking price easily five to ten thousand over perceived value, but seller was firm.

 

With only a handful of existing cars to choose from, I advised my friend to just bite the bullet and buy it.

 

He’s thanked me since, saying he’s never regretted the money spent, he’s been compensated well with pride of ownership….

 

[Walt G]

David,

The last part of your last sentence says it all. Life is short, if you can see your way to being happy with a noble piece of history that functions the way it did when new a century ago and every mile you travel down the road in it you are happy or are making someone happy because they see it, then what you have worked for your whole life has come full circle.

Walt

[rackops]

15 minutes ago, trimacar said:

This car was bid on EBay to $16,900, listed by dealer and current owner?
 

Do what you wish if you love it, $39,900 is way over what this car would bring normally.  I think it’s a $20,000 car at most.

 

 

 

Yep, that's it. I'm working on the price...he's basically fishing at the moment...and trying to get it into the realm of reasonableness. If I can't get him to where I think I'd want to be on it, I'll pass. It's a pretty car, for sure, but I agree with your assessment on value. I don't mind spending extra since this will be a "keeper" for me, but keeping it within what I consider to be reasonable is key. At the current price point, I have some other very nice options available to me, all of which I would be very happy with. So we will see.

[trimacar]

11 minutes ago, rackops said:

 

Yep, that's it. I'm working on the price...he's basically fishing at the moment...and trying to get it into the realm of reasonableness. If I can't get him to where I think I'd want to be on it, I'll pass. It's a pretty car, for sure, but I agree with your assessment on value. I don't mind spending extra since this will be a "keeper" for me, but keeping it within what I consider to be reasonable is key. At the current price point, I have some other very nice options available to me, all of which I would be very happy with. So we will see.

I agree, 40k could buy you a very nice car, and potentially one more comfortable and drivable than the Nash.  I’d surely advise taking it for a test drive, some people literally don’t fit well in some early vehicles.

[alsancle]

1.  That is a neat car.

 

2.  It is not worth 1/2 the asking price.

 

3.  It is an obscure make (at least for 1923).  That has some pluses and lots of minuses.

 

4.  The market for old cars is contracting and there are more available now then ever.   Take your time.

 

5.  Re-emphasis:  Take your time.

 

Go to some shows,  check out different cars and see what floats  your boat.   Picking something with active club support is a really important attribute for an antique car.

[Walt G]

3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Go to some shows,  check out different cars and see what floats  your boat.   Picking something with active club support is a really important attribute for an antique car.

Both A.J. and I are long time enthusiasts and owners of pre war cars, often of "orphan" status regarding the make . Both of us have driven/ridden thousands of miles in the pre WWII era vehicles as well , not just to display at a show, concours etc. during the day and at night and in assorted temperatures ( me personally at 85+ degrees and about 12 degrees for hours) . What he says is sound advice. SEE IF YOU ARE COMFORTABLE WHEN SITTING IN ONE.  Many cars were not made for people with long legs. 

[Akstraw]

Great looking car.  Good luck in your pursuit of it.  

[rackops]

Thank you all so much for the advice! I sincerely do appreciate it.

 

Question, since we're all here and on this topic: what's the best way of establishing a rough value of these lesser-known makes/models? Like this Nash, I have looked through closed auctions, cached classified ads and so on, but have found very few that would provide a "comp" (as my Realtor wife would call it). Obviously, I don't want to spend way over value, but I don't mind going at least a bit over value to get something I really like and want to keep. 

 

My experience (as I mentioned in the beginning) has been with Model As, having owned several of them. The ones I had were great drivers (well, one of them became a great driver after rebuilding it...but that's another story...) and they are sufficiently common to where it's easy to establish a range of values (ironically, what I paid and sold my Phaeton for a decade ago is the range they're still running...so not a great investment, but still enjoyable) and perhaps more importantly, getting parts for them is pretty much like falling off a log...multiple dealers are out there with every part imaginable. 

 

So these are probably my two biggest considerations when looking at something more unusual than a Model A...being drivable is probably primary (we have some great roads out here and being close to Kitty Hawk, it's ideal for a convertible that can maintain road speeds) followed by parts availability (while I'm pretty handy working on these, I don't want to become a frequent flier at my local machine shop every time something breaks...)

 

I do agree too with shopping around (e.g. waiting), but that's actually what I have been doing for the last year or so now since retirement. I've bounced around from various types of cars, but have pretty much settled on the style (four-door convertible) and price range ($30-40) that I want to stick with (or perhaps better said...what my wife is okay with...) 😁

 

Thanks again - this has been a great discussion!

[Walt G]

4 minutes ago, rackops said:

being drivable is probably primary

How fast? will it be going on highways up against modern cars? ( not necessarily all the time - that is not my point) Is 50 mph max ok or do you want something you can cruise along at 50 mph at for hours?  You need to consider brakes and ability to stop to avoid the modern car drivers. Old cars with transmission brakes or 2 wheel brakes can be totally different from a car with 4 wheel brakes ( either mechanical or hydraulic) .

[alsancle]

You can use public auction data, and then subtract 20 to 30% to give you an idea of retail value. Auction costs are expensive and the publisher sale prices are inflated over what the general market is for particular  car.

 

As for the nash in question, you will not find the same car that has sold in the last 10 years. Will be hard. So you need to compare it to other similar cars of the era.

 

By the way, Walt is making an important point with regard to drive ability. I’m going to guess that Nash is  good for 40 miles an hour. There are very few 1920s cars you can take up on a freeway.

[John_S_in_Penna]

39 minutes ago, rackops said:

...what's the best way of establishing a rough value of these lesser-known makes/models?

People here may disparage price guides;  they may 

disparage appraisers;  and they may say, "Free advice

is worth what you paid for it!"  But there certainly has

to be a way to establish value.  Trimacar's estimate is

in line with my "2020 Collector Car Price Guide" by

Krause Publications.

 

2 hours ago, trimacar said:

I think it’s a $20,000 car at most.

The 4-cylinder was the smaller Nash.  The price guide

says about $15,000 in #3 condition, about $23,000 in #2.

 

That price guide book is no longer made.  But the producers

of that book also issue "Old Cars Report Price Guide" every 

2 months.  Certain issues go back to your early year;

others cover later cars.  It's just a guide;  surely the flipper

asking $40,000 will say "You can't trust those guides!"

[John_S_in_Penna]

22 minutes ago, alsancle said:

I’m going to guess that Nash is  good for 40 miles an hour. There are very few 1920s cars you can take up on a freeway.

Speed is an important consideration for those

wanting an early car.  Do you have quiet country

roads, or large park preserves or small-town streets

with little traffic, to drive on?  If so, wonderful!  

 

My 1916 car is a large model for its day.  It's "sweet spot"

for driving is 25 to 35 m.p.h., and it's in high gear (4th)

at 20.  Why?  The state speed limit in Penna. at that time

was 12 m.p.h. in town, and 24 m.p.h. on the open highway.

(See picture below.)

 

Speeds were likely a little higher in 1923, but plan on

driving the 4-cylinder at 20 or 30, never 50.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[Jim Skelly]

Everyone has brought up some great points.  First of all, don't consider whatever you buy to be an investment at that price range.  Generally speaking, the only real investments are cars like an old Ford GT or Ferrari, pre-war cars with 12 or 16 cylinders, some roadsters, phaetons and closed cars.  Expect whatever you buy to be an investment in repairs.  Also consider that most 1920s cars have a black interior.  Will your wife really like or tolerate sitting and riding around in an old car for any length of time on a hot or rainy day (if it happens to rain suddenly) without the ability to turn on an air conditioner, a seat that may not be adjustable, and no radio?  Ideally, you would be able to borrow or ride in an old car for a few hours and decide if this is really what you want. 

[1937hd45]

It looks a lot like a 1923 BUICK. I'd check the prices on a 1923 BUICK Sport Touring, if you have $40,000 to spend. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by 1937hd45 (see edit history)

[John_S_in_Penna]

In 1923, most highways were unpaved.  It was only

in the late 1920's that Pennsylvania (for one) had a

major paving program going on.  Here is a picture of

a typical Penna. highway in 1927:

 

[rackops]

Thanks again all! I was pretty comfortable hitting the high 40s, occasionally the low 50s (downhill with the wind behind me) in my Phaeton...my Fordor could do about the same, but both were best around 40 or so. Luckily, most of the roads around here are pretty rural, so needing to get up to 50 isn't a normal requirement. 

 

Below is my Phaeton with my kids (now in college!). Some of their best memories are with that car in the local parades and driving around town, which is why I'd like to get another of similar genre (they won't make the same memories again, but hey...doesn't mean I can't enjoy it! And for what it's worth, my wife is still a bit miffed that I sold this car...and that was ten years ago...)  Oh, and it did take a couple months of meetings with the local club to finally stop having other owners tell me "I have grandkids your age!"  

Thanks again-

 

Dave

 

[John_S_in_Penna]

2 minutes ago, rackops said:

...I was pretty comfortable hitting the high 40s, occasionally the low 50s (downhill with the wind behind me) in my Phaeton...my Fordor could do about the same, but both were best around 40 or so.

Dave, cars were advancing rapidly in the 1920's.

One early account I read said that the average speed

on roads was going up by 1 m.p.h. per year!

You may find a substantial difference between

the 1923 Nash and your 1928-31 Ford Model A

in appropriate speeds.

[TAKerry]

Thats a  nice looking Ford Dave!  As for the Nash, again if youre really set on that car, leave the seller your info and sit back and wait for a couple of months. I am sure he will get in touch when he realizes the price is a bit high. For your price range I think there are plenty of really nice cars to choose from. I see quite a few interesting vehicles everyday in this forums 'not mine for sale' thread.

[F&J]

58 minutes ago, alsancle said:

2.  It is not worth 1/2 the asking price.

 

3.  It is an obscure make (at least for 1923).  That has some pluses and lots of minuses.

 

4.  The market for old cars is contracting and there are more available now then ever.   Take your time.

Move number 2 to number 5 because  3 and 4 need to be fully understood before pricing can be sensible for a given buyer.

 

I agree with the poster that said you really need to drive one of these first, especially at that crazy money.  Yes, barely a 40mph car like nearly all makes were that sold to most new car buyers in mid 20s. If (enjoyably) driving them is a primary objective on todays paved battlefield of planning on what the other cars near you are doing..... You may save many thousands of dollars on a forced resale, because right now YOU are the only potential buyer of that very overpriced and very low popularity era of Nash.  You will lose your arse if you nave to get rid of it when you realize it's not up to the task.

 

In a new post, you say 30-40K price range.  We are all different in visual desires, but that kind of money would get you into a 4 door open car much newer (mid 1930s), that can actually be used a lot and enjoyed.

 

Back to number 4, many long time hobbyists really have their head in the sand as far as grasping the reality of the rapidly shrinking prewar hobby, as well as them bragging that they saw "a" (just one) young guy in his 20s drive a 1920s car to a show.  Heck, most small town shows and cruises you see on Youtube should be a wake up call.  Very few ever get driven, and less each year.

 

Some stuff is banned here, so all I can say is that the population is dying off a tad bit faster (called "excess deaths"), as well as infertility issues growing faster for the last 2 years.  Meaning even more vintage cars will soon, or within 2-3 years, be in the market from estates, or serious health issues, overflooding a flooded market.  The new people born or ones immigrating here won't be buying prewars or collector cars. 

 

I'm not anti prewar, but am a realist at 70.  I live alone with only 2 registered vehicles here, my primary year-round one is a 1932, and the spare one is a 1966 truck.  Both are modified as to cruise speeds and drivability for todays needs.  My unfinished project 1932 Nash is also modified with a better gear ratio, as I just know it would have been useless to me and crappy to drive with stock 4.73 ratio.  I won't own something that i can't use, or if i find that I don't want to drive it due to it's low speeds on my secondary roads.

 

 

 

 

[TAKerry]

For $20k-$30k I would take a chance on the 1927 Gardner that is to be auctioned at Hershey.

[58L-Y8]

Welcome!   You've come to the right place for good, solid advice, much of it already rendered.

 

Selecting a 1920's car for enjoyable use requires understanding the roadability engineered into that car to meet the driving standards of that era.  Roads were poorer then; speeds were typically between 30-40 mph.  Long stroke, babbitt-bearing engines weren't designed for sustained higher speeds as we have now.  Cars were geared for low-end acceleration and climbing, with occasional burst of higher speeds.  Until four-wheel brakes became the norm in the late 1920's, stopping capability depended upon the driver's ability to double-clutch and downshift non-synchronized transmission gears and plenty of space.... plus, leg strength...

 

The 1923 Nash Four you are considering has a 178.9 ci, 36hp engine.  It is very long stroke: 3 3/8" bore X 5.0" stroke, the final drive ratio: 4.89:1.  Not to put you off this particular car, but I recommend you look at the specifications of a variety of 1920's makes and models to arrive at a car which you will find both safe and satisfying to drive.  The market demand for 1920's cars is soft in general, meaning there are many good cars to selective from.  You can afford to be selective to get the best car that will meet your interests and needs.

 

Steve

 

[rackops]

I truly enjoy the conversation - this thread is really great. Thank you to everyone who has replied!

 

As long as people are offering opinions (and they are sincerely appreciated) does anyone have an opinion on this car? I've done a bit of digging into Chandlers and they seem to have been built to be pretty solid cars. That said, this one is also like the Nash at the beginning...I have no clue what the comps are on it and since he's already come down $15k in his asking price, I'm assuming he doesn't know the comps either (no idea what he paid for it, though he bought it, restored, from an estate sale in Wisconsin with very little history behind it). Any good/bad/ugly thoughts on this one?